Zone1 Why do Protestants always believe their pastors rather than the 2000 year old CHURCH Christ established?

[hadit]

But I don't think that at all...I am pointing out it is the constant that we hear over and over again on message boards. Whether true or not, it makes it seem main focus is the hereafter. There is very little about redemption, salvation (not "saved") justification/sanctification, and discerning the will of the Father in one's daily life here on earth and doing that will (i.e., "works") and "works" seem to be regarded as some sort of profanity rather than duty and service to God as befits unprofitable servants of God.

That's human nature, and reflective of an unrepentant heart. Which is the loving spouse who wants a relationship?

1. The woman who approaches her husband on their wedding day and demands a list of duties that are the bare minimum required for him to allow her to live with him, duties that she will spend the rest of her life trying to avoid, ignore, re-interpret, or otherwise violate, but demand to be allowed to stay?
2. The woman who spends her entire life watching her husband to learn what he likes so she can be and provide it for him?

A repentant person will serve God and do good works out of a redeemed heart that knows he is already accepted by God and made holy, not because anyone is telling him he has to do a set of things before God will accept him.

 

[Meriweather]

If that was done as an infant, you were not saved and re-born.

That type of judgement is why I am ecstatic I am not a non-Catholic Christian. First, I know that God's redemption and salvation is upon me. Second, I know my life in the Spirit dates back to when I was a toddler, and due to Baptism and my parent's teaching, probably beyond memory.

Earlier I was told being 'saved' means being 'saved from hell.' Perhaps you might explain what you are reborn into?

 

[Meriweather]

I'm saying they're projecting to the world that they are worshiping that image.

Perhaps what is now being projected is how judgemental you and the world are being?

 

[hadit]

That type of judgement is why I am ecstatic I am not a non-Catholic Christian. First, I know that God's redemption and salvation is upon me. Second, I know my life in the Spirit dates back to when I was a toddler, and due to Baptism and my parent's teaching, probably beyond memory.

Earlier I was told being 'saved' means being 'saved from hell.' Perhaps you might explain what you are reborn into?

We are reborn into right relationship with God. Whereas before we were governed by our sin nature, now we are governed by the Spirit and no longer slaves to sin (note that we still stumble and fall, but now we know it and immediately repent). Whereas before we were blind and deaf to God's leading, now we can see and hear Him. Whereas before we were enemies of God, now we are children of God. But you know all of this.

 

[hadit]

Perhaps what is now being projected is how judgemental you and the world are being?

All I know is that God refuses to have His face carved into an image and has very strict prohibitions against praying to or worshipping a statue. That means, to avoid giving the world the wrong impression of what I'm doing, I do not kneel before a statue of a person in a posture of prayer. Is that being judgmental towards those who do, or is it following what I see as very clearly outlined in Scripture? Is there nothing that you avoid doing because it looks like something that God prohibits?

 

[ding]

You're an idiot. An actual usable comparison would compare to Protestants.

But on the subject the Catholic Church worked with the Nazis.

Vatican documents show secret back channel between Pope Pius XII and Hitler

A series of recently opened Vatican archives are shedding new light on the relationship between Pope Pius XII and Hitler as he led Nazi Germany during World War II. A new book takes a deeper look at these revelations. Historian David Kertzer, author of “The Pope At War: The Secret History of...

www.google.com

How does anything you posted so far relate to the OP? Where's that connection?

 

[Meriweather]

Is that being judgmental towards those who do, or is it following what I see as very clearly outlined in Scripture?

Let's take a look at scripture. In ancient Biblical times, people worshiped totems (graven images) because they believed these very images conveyed the power portrayed in the image. The Bible says we are not to worship idols. In Exodus, we see where the people melted down their gold to make a golden calf, and Aaron pointed to the calf and told them "There is your god who led you out of Egypt.) A graven image declared to be a god, a practice in ancient Biblical times.
God forbade that. He did not forbid images used for religious/holy purposes.

Example 1: Ark of the Covenant

God commands Moses to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with two graven images Cherubim.

Example 2: The Serpent

God said to Moses, "Make a fiery (bronze) serpent and raise it on a pole..." Those who looked at the bronze serpent God commanded to be engraved were healed.

Example 3: Solomon's Temple (1 King 6:22-29)

And he overlaid the whole house with gold, until all the house was finished. Also the whole altar that belonged to the inner sanctuary he overlaid with gold.

In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. The other cherub also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same form. The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other cherub. He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; and the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other wings touched each other in the middle of the house. And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.

He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms.

Graven images are constructed all over the place in the temple of God.

Example 4: Ezekiel's Time (Ezekiel 41)

We see the same engraved images in the Temple in Ezekiel's time.

Both inner and outer rooms were carved figures of cherubim with two faces...a man's face and and a lion's face.

*****

Basically, you take a verse or two in Exodus that says not to use graven images as idols. Clearly, there were graven images (and even more Bible passages) that speak of graven images use in places of worship for a holy purpose.

Instead of acknowledging the Biblical practice of using 'graven images' in holy places of prayer for holy purposes, you find a Bible passage that you believe excuses you from accusing/judging Catholics of being idol worshipers. I find that shameful.

 

[Meriweather]

We are reborn into right relationship with God. Whereas before we were governed by our sin nature, now we are governed by the Spirit and no longer slaves to sin (note that we still stumble and fall, but now we know it and immediately repent). Whereas before we were blind and deaf to God's leading, now we can see and hear Him. Whereas before we were enemies of God, now we are children of God. But you know all of this.

So what? Christ's life, death, and resurrection redeemed the world over two thousand years ago. Baptism acknowledges this redemption and that there is no longer a schism between God and the individual being baptized.

Or, do you argue that redemption was not meant for babies and the schism between God and that baptized baby still remains? You believe the baptized baby (or any baby) is still an enemy of God? From birth, a baby is present during family prayer and is even present at community worship. The grace of salvation is present. Or, is it your belief that God's grace and salvation have no power over the life of a baby?

 

[Meriweather]

A repentant person will serve God and do good works out of a redeemed heart that knows he is already accepted by God and made holy, not because anyone is telling him he has to do a set of things before God will accept him.

Who is it that goes around telling anyone that "s/he has to do a set of things before God will accept him." Please be specific. Is that what is taught in non-Catholic Christian denominations?

In my previous post, I already spoke of redemption being present, and the power of God's grace of salvation on the baptized. From birth Catholics know we have been redeemed (accepted) by God and that God's grace of salvation helps us to discern the will of God and the ability to serve Him.

You profane beautiful Catholic belief/practices. Why? I find it shameful.

 

[hadit]

Let's take a look at scripture. In ancient Biblical times, people worshiped totems (graven images) because they believed these very images conveyed the power portrayed in the image. The Bible says we are not to worship idols. In Exodus, we see where the people melted down their gold to make a golden calf, and Aaron pointed to the calf and told them "There is your god who led you out of Egypt.) A graven image declared to be a god, a practice in ancient Biblical times.
God forbade that. He did not forbid images used for religious/holy purposes.

Example 1: Ark of the Covenant

God commands Moses to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with two graven images Cherubim.

Example 2: The Serpent

God said to Moses, "Make a fiery (bronze) serpent and raise it on a pole..." Those who looked at the bronze serpent God commanded to be engraved were healed.

Example 3: Solomon's Temple (1 King 6:22-29)

And he overlaid the whole house with gold, until all the house was finished. Also the whole altar that belonged to the inner sanctuary he overlaid with gold.

In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. The other cherub also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same form. The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other cherub. He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; and the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other wings touched each other in the middle of the house. And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.

He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms.

Graven images are constructed all over the place in the temple of God.

Example 4: Ezekiel's Time (Ezekiel 41)

We see the same engraved images in the Temple in Ezekiel's time.

Both inner and outer rooms were carved figures of cherubim with two faces...a man's face and and a lion's face.

*****

Basically, you take a verse or two in Exodus that says not to use graven images as idols. Clearly, there were graven images (and even more Bible passages) that speak of graven images use in places of worship for a holy purpose.

Instead of acknowledging the Biblical practice of using 'graven images' in holy places of prayer for holy purposes, you find a Bible passage that you believe excuses you from accusing/judging Catholics of being idol worshipers. I find that shameful.

Nowhere does it indicate that the people were to bow down and pray before these images.

 

[hadit]

So what? Christ's life, death, and resurrection redeemed the world over two thousand years ago. Baptism acknowledges this redemption and that there is no longer a schism between God and the individual being baptized.

Or, do you argue that redemption was not meant for babies and the schism between God and that baptized baby still remains? You believe the baptized baby (or any baby) is still an enemy of God? From birth, a baby is present during family prayer and is even present at community worship. The grace of salvation is present. Or, is it your belief that God's grace and salvation have no power over the life of a baby?

I'm saying that baptism is something that is done when a person understands salvation and is willing to make the public statement that they are following Christ from that moment forward. Before then it's meaningless. Note that infant baptism was not an Early Church thing, nor something taught by Yeshua.

 

[hadit]

Who is it that goes around telling anyone that "s/he has to do a set of things before God will accept him." Please be specific. Is that what is taught in non-Catholic Christian denominations?

In my previous post, I already spoke of redemption being present, and the power of God's grace of salvation on the baptized. From birth Catholics know we have been redeemed (accepted) by God and that God's grace of salvation helps us to discern the will of God and the ability to serve Him.

You profane beautiful Catholic belief/practices. Why? I find it shameful.

I'm talking to those who continue to insist that works have to be done for salvation. God's salvation is granted to those who are not yet baptized and who have done no works. See the thief on the cross.

 

[Meriweather]

Nowhere does it indicate that the people were to bow down and pray before these images.

Seriously? No prayer in the Temple then.

 

[hadit]

Seriously? No prayer in the Temple then.

John 4:19-22

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm saying that baptism is something that is done when a person understands salvation and is willing to make the public statement that they are following Christ from that moment forward. Before then it's meaningless. Note that infant baptism was not an Early Church thing, nor something taught by Yeshua.

Tradition indicates that infant baptism took place as early as the first century.

Is it your testimony that God's redemption and salvation is powerless when it comes to babies and children?

 

[Meriweather]

I'm talking to those who continue to insist that works have to be done for salvation. God's salvation is granted to those who are not yet baptized and who have done no works. See the thief on the cross.

I am not sure you even understand what salvation is. Do you? How do you define salvation?

 

[hadit]

I am not sure you even understand what salvation is. Do you? How do you define salvation?

I've already given you that.

 

[hadit]

Tradition indicates that infant baptism took place as early as the first century.

Is it your testimony that God's redemption and salvation is powerless when it comes to babies and children?

I'm saying it requires the person to actively choose to follow Christ. It cannot be forced on anyone.

 

[Meriweather]

who have done no works. See the thief on the cross.

Maybe we need to hear your definition of "works". The thief on the cross testified that Jesus had done no wrong. That wasn't a work?

That thief stood up for Jesus instead of supporting his fellow thief with his own taunts that Jesus should save them. Defending someone is not a work?

The thief offered Jesus belief and comfort that Jesus would come into his kingdom. Comforting someone is not a work?

What gave the good thief the strength and the will to speak up? Could it have been the grace of God, salvation through grace? Grace that immediately prompted the thief in three very good works: Defense. Testimony. Comfort.

 

[Meriweather]

I've already given you that.

Then it has slipped my mind. Could you repeat it for me, please?