Zone1 Why do Protestants always believe their pastors rather than the 2000 year old CHURCH Christ established?

[Meriweather]

I'm saying it requires the person to actively choose to follow Christ. It cannot be forced on anyone.

Christ's life, death, and resurrection redeemed the world. Do you consider redemption was forced upon the world, or do you believe it is available for all? In the same way, baptism does not prevent anyone from turning away from Christ.

An analogy: Does education force A's on anyone, or does it provide the opportunity. In the same way, Baptism provides the opportunities of grace into salvation and justification/sanctification. Does every student graduate? Should students be denied what is available simply because not all will prevail?

 

[BS Filter]

That type of judgement is why I am ecstatic I am not a non-Catholic Christian. First, I know that God's redemption and salvation is upon me. Second, I know my life in the Spirit dates back to when I was a toddler, and due to Baptism and my parent's teaching, probably beyond memory.

Earlier I was told being 'saved' means being 'saved from hell.' Perhaps you might explain what you are reborn into?

The Kingdom of God.

 

[hadit]

Then it has slipped my mind. Could you repeat it for me, please?

Post #284.

 

[BS Filter]

Christ's life, death, and resurrection redeemed the world. Do you consider redemption was forced upon the world, or do you believe it is available for all? In the same way, baptism does not prevent anyone from turning away from Christ.

An analogy: Does education force A's on anyone, or does it provide the opportunity. In the same way, Baptism provides the opportunities of grace into salvation and justification/sanctification. Does every student graduate? Should students be denied what is available simply because not all will prevail?

I agree redemption is available for all. The question is when and how one receives it.

 

[hadit]

Christ's life, death, and resurrection redeemed the world. Do you consider redemption was forced upon the world, or do you believe it is available for all? In the same way, baptism does not prevent anyone from turning away from Christ.

An analogy: Does education force A's on anyone, or does it provide the opportunity. In the same way, Baptism provides the opportunities of grace into salvation and justification/sanctification. Does every student graduate? Should students be denied what is available simply because not all will prevail?

We don't deem everyone getting an education as already having obtained it. An infant is innocent, not discerning good and evil, right and wrong, so why baptize them?

 

[Meriweather]

An infant is innocent, not discerning good and evil, right and wrong, so why baptize them?

In the Catholic faith, Baptism is a Sacrament of Initiation into the Body of Christ. That is why babies are baptized and become full fledged members of the Body of Christ. They receive the Holy Spirit and God's grace which evokes salvation.

Here is the thing. If non-Catholic Christians choose not to baptize until a later age, that can be done without first trying to tear down Catholic Christian practices and beliefs. Clearly, non-Catholic Christians do not understand the traditions and scriptures that mean so much to Catholics, because they have other scriptures that may mean just as much to them.

 

[onefour1]

Once again..........if you personally interpret one passage of scripture to contradict another passage of scripture you are guilty of "2" things...... (1). personal or private interpretation is not allowed, the scriptures have already been interpreted by the prophets or scribes who delivered them (in other words......the scriptures self interpret) -- 2 Peter 1:20. (2). All scripture is produced by the same spirit of truth as inspired by the God of Creation -- 2 Tim. 3:16 (thus........one passage will never made another passage into a lie....deceit comes from the father of lies, the god with a little "g" of this world -- 2 Cor. 4:4)

Thus the scriptures are self interpreting the documented fact that appointed Judges were standing in for God to help enforce the LAW of MOSES. (Ps. 82). Several points of truth. (1). The gods mentioned were sitting on the council established by "GOD" with a capital "G" -- vs. 1 of Ps 82. (2). The gods mentioned with a little/small "g" were producing unjust judgements -- vs. 2 of Ps. 82. (3). The gods, small "g"..........will DIE, after falling from grace like a prince just like men because they are men -- vss. 6-7.

Go back and read my posts. I did not interpret gods to mean they were equal to God the Father. My point was that because Jesus himself said that "Ye are gods", this proves that there are more than one god. Go back and read my posts again and you will see that I did say there was a distinction between God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost being the God we should worship as opposed to all the other gods. I have also shown you that we are the children of God the father and as such we are gods. When the Jews thought to stone Jesus for blasphemy for saying he was the very son of God, he threw it back in their face with the verse in Psalms 82:6 which tells us that we are all gods and children of the Most High. His point was that how could they accuse him of blasphemy when their very law calls all the children of the Most High, "gods".

Read......COMPREHEND in literal text, no symbolism....literal text, unambiguous. There is only one GOD, "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE mediator between men and God.........the MAN CHRIST JESUS." -- 1 Tim. 2:5

Read Comprehend the passages that clearly state there is but ONE GOD. Deut 6:4 -- "The Lord our God is one Lord." Isa. 42:8 -- "I am the Lord; that is My Name; and MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER....." Isa. 43:10 -- "........BEFORE ME WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME." Isa. 44:6 -- "I am the first, I am the last, and beside Me there is no God."

And in the New Testament, "There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT.........ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM......ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL......." -- Eph. 4:4-6

There is but ONE LORD and ONE CHRIST appointed by God (Acts 2:36, Matthew 28:18-19)

I also pointed out in my previous posts that the gods who do exist are not the gods we should worship or look toward for our salvation. My point was to show you in SOLO SCRIPTURA that there are other gods as Jesus himself has proclaimed. No we don't worship them nor do we look to them for our salvation and ignore the one God whom we do worship and gain salvation from. So no I have not misinterpreted the scriptures. I have only pointed out to you that scripture does show that there are other gods that exist and they are the children of God the Eternal Heavenly Father. God the Father considers his children to be gods. Jesus clearly taught that "Ye are gods" and the scripture cannot be broken.

Psalms 82:1
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

This verse also tells us that there are gods many as the Apostle Paul has said. All the sons of God who existed prior to the foundation of this earth are gods, being literal offspring of God the Father. Gods beget gods. Many of them have now come to this earth and taken on flesh and blood. God judges amongst us all. That is the meaning of Psalms 82:1. Yes, Psalms 82 is a reprimand of those gods who have come this earth and have not always done righteously.

Psalms 89:5-7
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Acts 17:29
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Bottom line is that there are gods many and lords many but to us there is but one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ whom we should look to for salvation and to worship.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

If every man can become like God (as Satan told Eve in the Garden....a lie --Genesis 3:5).........Our Lord and Savior has made a sacrifice in vain because we do not need the Grace provided by the sacrificial blood of the cross......WE BELIEVE IN VAIN. Just as Paul detailed in 1 Cor. 15.

Lets take a look at what Eve was told and what the truth is according to scripture.

Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan told Eve two things, 1. that she would not surely die. This was the lie that was mixed with truth. 2. that her eyes would be opened and that she would become as the gods, knowing good and evil. We find that this second statement was true for we read in Genesis 3:22 the following:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So you see here that the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. This is proof that the second statement of Satan was a true statement and verified by the Lord God himself.

Adam died at the age of 930 years old. But when God said that in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die, does this mean that God was lying because Adam lived on to be 930 years old? NO! Because the day God was speaking of was a day unto the Lord.

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Thus Adam and Eve died within the very day according to the days of the Lord.

God warned us of this DECEIT in the very first Chapter of the Holy Bible..........men will never become gods, Satan deceived Eve......and here are the MORMONS carrying the water for SATAN still in the 21st century A.D.

Show me the verse in the very first chapter of the Holy Bible where it states that men will never become gods. We were like God when he created us in his own image and likeness. When Adam and Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they became more like God also (Genesis 3:22 above). Jesus command us to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect, was he giving us an unattainable commandment? Is that fair of God to give such a command? In all that we do Jesus has set the example for us to become like him. We are to follow in his footsteps. To top all this off, Jesus said, "Ye are gods". To say that we are not, is to make Jesus a liar. We are the offspring of God the Father. Gods beget gods. He wishes us to become like him. We are not only to be born as gods but we are to become a God through our free will and choice. We truly can become perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.

 

[ding]

I agree redemption is available for all. The question is when and how one receives it.

You are conflating salvation for redemption. Those are two different things. They are related but not the same. Redemption means deliverance from the bondage of sin and the restoration of our relationship with God and was achieved through Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. Salvation begins with the grace of God but requires us to choose whether to receive this grace or reject it. If we choose to receive grace, we choose a life aligned with the will of God but it we don’t receive it, we remain in a life of sin. For most people this is a process; a journey.

 

[DudleySmith]

The Baptists on Baptism:

Do Baptists Believe Baptism Necessary To Be Saved? - Christianity FAQ

Baptism is important to every branch of the Christian faith, and as the title of their tradition suggests, it is central to Baptist beliefs and practices. It is significant because Jesus was baptized (Matt. 3:13-17) and told people to baptize others (Matt. 28:18-20). But is it necessary for...

christianityfaq.com

Baptists are baptized because they are saved, not to be saved.

This is because they believe in free will. They consider Romans 6:3-4 important as it ties in with Galatians and ultimately the 'seed of Abraham'. That is why they don't baptize babies. Jesus was not baptized as a child, but as a grown man. It was a Jewish practice, though Christian Jews have their own reason for adoption, as did Jesus.

John's Baptism as Jewish Proselyte Baptism: The History and Character of Jewish Proselyte Baptism as Background for Understanding John's Baptism

Christian baptism is not a novel practice by John the Baptist and used by Jesus Christ as a missional tool. Christian baptism is instead a product of the clash between Jewish and Christian notions of righteousness before God. Christians, who held as their Jewish Brothers did, that all are...

digitalcommons.csp.edu

Christian baptism is not a novel practice by John the Baptist and used by Jesus Christ as a missional tool. Christian baptism is instead a product of the clash between Jewish and Christian notions of righteousness before God. Christians, who held as their Jewish Brothers did, that all are sinners and in need of repentance, invite in contrast any and all to the baptismal font. Breaking with much of Jewish Custom in the 2nd Temple Period (539 BC-70 AD), John's baptism was for all sinners and Christ's commission of his disciples sought to evangelize all by baptizing. This baptism is an initiatory ritual that is for all people regardless of birth, race, or ethnicity.

Judaic baptism, on the other hand, was the precursor to Christian baptism and the fount from which Christianity derives much of its baptismal theology. IT is continuous with Christianity in its initiatory theology, its covenantal language, the physical action of baptism and the requirement of baptism for entrance into the community.

Christian baptism, however, departs from Judaic baptism over the question of who should be baptized. For Christians (John the Baptist), all people are to be baptized since all are in need of repentance and washing in preparation for the impending kingdom regardless of whether they are a Jew or not. On the other hand, Judaic baptism was only for proselytes. John the Baptist criticizes the Jews for their misunderstandings for who should be baptized.

I see no conflict with the NT re Protestant theology on this.

 

[Meriweather]

I see no conflict with the NT re Protestant theology on this.

The Bible supports a variety of theologies and a variety of meanings for baptism. The theology one individual follows does not mean that the other theologies are wrong. There is absolutely no need to tear down one baptismal theology if one favors another. It merely makes their own theology look weaker, as if it cannot stand on its own. God is not limited, and there is no reason to limit ourselves or each other.

 

[K9Buck]

...there is no reason to limit ourselves or each other.

I agree but I also support disproving false doctrine and sharing the truth of God.

 

[nomadic5]

It is idolatry to kneel in prayer to anyone other than God Himself.

yeh, I always hear Catholics saying they have to bow their knee to someone other than God. What's wrong with them anyhow?

sarcasm alert

I've been Catholic all my life and have never seen any Catholic say that some human person is to be worshipped. Protestants just make up all kinds of BS so as to appear to have a legitimate argument against Catholicism. They are like political liberals we see in DC: just say any old bad thing about the opposition and see what sticks.

 

[hadit]

yeh, I always hear Catholics saying they have to bow their knee to someone other than God. What's wrong with them anyhow?

sarcasm alert

I've been Catholic all my life and have never seen any Catholic say that some human person is to be worshipped. Protestants just make up all kinds of BS so as to appear to have a legitimate argument against Catholicism. They are like political liberals we see in DC: just say any old bad thing about the opposition and see what sticks.

What do most people think is going on when someone bows or kneels before a statue of a person and adopts a posture of prayer? That's the issue.

 

[nomadic5]

What do most people think is going on when someone bows or kneels before a statue of a person and adopts a posture of prayer? That's the issue.

protestants are always saying dumb things like this. When you look at a photo of a loved one, do you worship that person? Give me a break!

 

[hadit]

protestants are always saying dumb things like this. When you look at a photo of a loved one, do you worship that person? Give me a break!

I don't kneel in front of a picture of a loved one, bow my head and clasp my hands in front of my face. Care to try again?

Oh, and I'm not a Protestant, just to take that off the table. You know, so you don't think I say dumb things.

 

[Meriweather]

What do most people think is going on when someone bows or kneels before a statue of a person and adopts a posture of prayer? That's the issue.

Most Catholics or most Protestants?

Most Catholics picture the scripture, "When two or more are gathered in my name..." and picture Jesus with two or more people.

Are you accusing most non-Catholic Christians of thinking Catholics are idolators?

 

[K9Buck]

protestants are always saying dumb things like this

some protestants.

I've heard Catholics say that everyone who isn't Catholic is going to Hell. I don't ascribe that belief to all Catholics in order to then attack all Catholics.

 

[hadit]

Most Catholics or most Protestants?

Most Catholics picture the scripture, "When two or more are gathered in my name..." and picture Jesus with two or more people.

Are you accusing most non-Catholic Christians of thinking Catholics are idolators?

I'm saying that when most people see someone kneeling before a statue in a posture of prayer, they will assume that person is praying to either the statue or the person the statue represents.

What is it when a person carries a little statue of a long-departed saint in their pocket for "good luck"? It's certainly not relying on God for protection and blessing.
What is it when someone buries a little statue of a long-departed saint in their back yard to help sell their house quicker (that one was something a co-worker tried)? It's certainly not relying on God for protection and blessing.
What is it when someone puts a little statue of a long-departed saint on their dashboard to help ensure a safe journey? It's certainly not relying on God for protection and blessing.

In fact, any time you see people relying on statues and images instead of the object of their faith, you have to ask why.

 

[K9Buck]

protestants are always saying dumb things...

1 John 3:15 esv
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[K9Buck]

I have a statue of Jesus standing with his arms raised in victory. I've never prayed in front of it. It's just a nice reminded to me of Jesus's victory over death. I dislike the crucifix, which looks like a trophy that Satan would make and hang on his wall as a reminder of how he butchered Jesus.