Mormons?

Flash

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Question for my LDS friends.

As a Lutheran I can go into any Protestant or Catholic church in the world and be welcomed, baptized or not.

How come I am not welcomed in a LDS temple?
I am not sure how I would speak for Protestants or Catholics. I know I have attended their services and not been asked to leave.

I suspect you could be baptized into any church...in fact, much like our church, I suspect they would encourage it.

I don't try to answer the question around temples unless I know there is a clear understanding (not acceptance) of our doctrine regarding restoration, priesthood, and covenants. Without that understanding (again....not agreement), it simply sounds like we are exclusionary. I have fought that battle to often to go into without a basis for discussion.

I would just like to know what those boys don't want us heathens to see.

Wormhole to the Planet Kolob?

Test rifle range for the magic underwear?

Them trying to baptize us?
I find that very disrespectful.

If you think I've treated you that way on this thread....I apologize.
Lighten up.

It was meant to be humorous, not disrespectful.
 

MadChemist

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Question for my LDS friends.

As a Lutheran I can go into any Protestant or Catholic church in the world and be welcomed, baptized or not.

How come I am not welcomed in a LDS temple?
I am not sure how I would speak for Protestants or Catholics. I know I have attended their services and not been asked to leave.

I suspect you could be baptized into any church...in fact, much like our church, I suspect they would encourage it.

I don't try to answer the question around temples unless I know there is a clear understanding (not acceptance) of our doctrine regarding restoration, priesthood, and covenants. Without that understanding (again....not agreement), it simply sounds like we are exclusionary. I have fought that battle to often to go into without a basis for discussion.

I would just like to know what those boys don't want us heathens to see.

Wormhole to the Planet Kolob?

Test rifle range for the magic underwear?

Them trying to baptize us?
I find that very disrespectful.

If you think I've treated you that way on this thread....I apologize.
Lighten up.

It was meant to be humorous, not disrespectful.
While I appreciate the attempt at humor.....there are some things that are to sacred to me to joke about.

I prefer mormon jokes like:

How many mormons does it take to change a lightbulb.....

Four: One to change the bulb....three to serve refreshments.

Or the one about the Mormon Bishop who loved golf. He was very busy and he really wanted to get on the links. Finally, not being able to stand it, he slips away one Sunday to play eighteen (family was out of town). The angles in heaven are truly upset and insist to God that he be struck with lightning. God says....I'll take care of it. On a long par 3, the Bishop gets a hole in one. The angles look at God and ask "What's that about?" God replies "Who is he going to tell ?".
 

Flash

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Question for my LDS friends.

As a Lutheran I can go into any Protestant or Catholic church in the world and be welcomed, baptized or not.

How come I am not welcomed in a LDS temple?
I am not sure how I would speak for Protestants or Catholics. I know I have attended their services and not been asked to leave.

I suspect you could be baptized into any church...in fact, much like our church, I suspect they would encourage it.

I don't try to answer the question around temples unless I know there is a clear understanding (not acceptance) of our doctrine regarding restoration, priesthood, and covenants. Without that understanding (again....not agreement), it simply sounds like we are exclusionary. I have fought that battle to often to go into without a basis for discussion.

I would just like to know what those boys don't want us heathens to see.

Wormhole to the Planet Kolob?

Test rifle range for the magic underwear?

Them trying to baptize us?
I find that very disrespectful.

If you think I've treated you that way on this thread....I apologize.
Lighten up.

It was meant to be humorous, not disrespectful.
While I appreciate the attempt at humor.....there are some things that are to sacred to me to joke about.

I prefer mormon jokes like:

How many mormons does it take to change a lightbulb.....

Four: One to change the bulb....three to serve refreshments.

Or the one about the Mormon Bishop who loved golf. He was very busy and he really wanted to get on the links. Finally, not being able to stand it, he slips away one Sunday to play eighteen. The angles in heaven are truly upset and insist to God that he be struck with lightning. God says....I'll take care of it. On a long par 3, the Bishop gets a hole in one. The angles look at God and ask "What's that about?" God replies "Who is he going to tell ?".

Feel free to do any Lutheran jokes that you want.

1606229009498.png
 

BS Filter

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Its the gospel Jesus Christ taught to his other sheep that were not of that fold.

John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Mormonism doesn't agree with the Church on that Scripture.
 

james bond

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Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

When one dies, their spirit ether goes to a place called paradise or they go to spirit prison. Those in paradise are organized to go and teach the gospel to the spirits in prison.
So...babies that are born in foreign countries, villages, etc who are not baptized in whatever faith, they go to hell?

This is why I'll stick with pagan-christian path. The God I believe in does not punish the innocent and barely punishes the bad because we are not born bad. We are taught to be evil or good. TAUGHT.

But still...some fascinating responses here. Thank you.
No! Babies do not go to hell! Not sure how you get that from what I posted? Many Christian faiths in the world today believe that if a baby is not baptized and dies, they will not make it into heaven. What I have been saying is that Jesus, between the time he suffered on the cross and the time he was resurrected, went to the world of spirits and set up his gospel to be preached unto them. This allows all mankind, whether or not they had the opportunity in this life to hear the gospel or not, to have the gospel taught unto them in the hereafter. They then have the opportunity to accept it or reject it prior to resurrection. However, Jesus also taught that the ordinance of baptism is critical to receive in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven. For this reason, baptism for the dead was set up on this earth since spirits are not able to be baptized. It is a massive work to make sure that all mankind will be baptized and we believe this great work will go on after Jesus comes again to the earth and rules. Eventually every living soul that has lived on this earth will have had baptism performed in their behalf. So once they hear the gospel in the world of spirits, they will have the opportunity to either accept it or reject it. Nobody gets left out and automatically sent to hell. Jesus has provided a way for all to be saved if they choose to accept salvation. That is the crux of what I have been saying.
Babies, children, and those mentally incapable of understanding right from wrong and Jesus will be saved by God's love, mercy, and grace. They make it to heaven.
 

Disir

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Feel free to do any Lutheran jokes that you want.
A crusty old man walks into the local Lutheran Church and says to the secretary, "I would like to join this damn church."
The astonished woman replies, "I beg your pardon, sir. I must have misunderstood you. What did you say?"

"Listen up, damn it. I said I want to join this damn church!"

"I'm very sorry sir, but that kind of language is not tolerated in this church." And with that said, the secretary leaves her desk and walks into the pastor's study to inform him of her situation. The pastor agrees that the secretary does not have to listen to that foul language.

They both return to her office and the pastor asks the old geezer, "Sir, what seems to be the problem here?"

"There is no damn problem," the man says. "I just won $200 million bucks in the damn lottery and I want to join this damn church to get rid of some of this damn money."

"I see," said the pastor. "And is this bitch giving you a hard time?"

:04:
 

onefour1

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Its the gospel Jesus Christ taught to his other sheep that were not of that fold.

John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Mormonism doesn't agree with the Church on that Scripture.
Says who? Within the Book of Mormon Jesus says,

3 Nephi 15:21
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 

BS Filter

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Its the gospel Jesus Christ taught to his other sheep that were not of that fold.

John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Mormonism doesn't agree with the Church on that Scripture.
Says who? Within the Book of Mormon Jesus says,

3 Nephi 15:21
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
That Scripture is referring to the Gentiles. The Book of Mormon is a fraud. What about Paul saying what he did about the angel in Galatians chapter one?
 

LittleNipper

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Do Mormons teach that GOD created everything including all the elements, everything that exists down to that which is invisible from merely speaking?
 

LittleNipper

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I always say Paul/muhammad/ joseph smith were all the same.

Full of shit
That's hard for me to read.

I am sorry you feel that way.

Do you mean Paul of the New Testament ?
Yeah paul..
Wow....

What gives ?
Paul/muhammad/joseph smith told the same storys..

I don't believe them
Not wanting to argue.....can you tell me what you do believe ?
Hebrews 13:2

Jeremiah 29:13
Once again the only two bible verses in the bible is true is Hebrews 13:2 and jeremiah 29:13
Hebrews 13:2 cannot be true unless the following is true:
Genesis 18:1-7 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”

“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”

6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”

7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
 

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MadChemist

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Do Mormons teach that GOD created everything including all the elements, everything that exists down to that which is invisible from merely speaking?
Mormons do not believe in Ex Nihilo creation.

We teach that our Father In Heaven organized things from different types of matter.....matter that already existed in some form.
 

LittleNipper

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Do Mormons teach that GOD created everything including all the elements, everything that exists down to that which is invisible from merely speaking?
Mormons do not believe in Ex Nihilo creation.

We teach that our Father In Heaven organized things from different types of matter.....matter that already existed in some form.
Colossians 1:16 ESV
For by HIM all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through HIM and for HIM.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΛΟΣΣΑΕΙΣ 1:16 Greek NT
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

The issue clearly is that Mr. Smith taught that GOD is of flesh and bone and was once like us. This would provide a need to limit GOD and make HIM a mere manufacturer or manipulator of someone's previous creation. I am surprised that you don't see this. If matter always existed then matter is before GOD and or was the design of someone or something else. And that makes GOD subordinated to someone or something else.
 

MadChemist

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Do Mormons teach that GOD created everything including all the elements, everything that exists down to that which is invisible from merely speaking?
Mormons do not believe in Ex Nihilo creation.

We teach that our Father In Heaven organized things from different types of matter.....matter that already existed in some form.
Colossians 1:16 ESV
For by HIM all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through HIM and for HIM.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΛΟΣΣΑΕΙΣ 1:16 Greek NT
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

The issue clearly is that Mr. Smith taught that GOD is of flesh and bone and was once like us. This would provide a need to limit GOD and make HIM a mere manufacturer or manipulator of someone's previous creation. I am surprised that you don't see this. If matter always existed then matter is before GOD and or was the design of someone or something else. And that makes GOD subordinated to someone or something else.
Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. A consideration of that function (calling) would say that he simply passes along what he has been told and taught from on high.

The Book Of Mormon states:

22 But there is a law given, and a apunishment affixed, and a brepentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be fjudged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

God must abide by eternal principles and laws. In this case there can be no violation of the balance between the law of Justice and the Law of Mercy.

If things are to be consistent then there is some context to the verse in Collosians.
 

BS Filter

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Do Mormons teach that GOD created everything including all the elements, everything that exists down to that which is invisible from merely speaking?
Mormons do not believe in Ex Nihilo creation.

We teach that our Father In Heaven organized things from different types of matter.....matter that already existed in some form.
Where did the that already existed come from?
 

onefour1

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Do Mormons teach that GOD created everything including all the elements, everything that exists down to that which is invisible from merely speaking?
Mormons do not believe in Ex Nihilo creation.

We teach that our Father In Heaven organized things from different types of matter.....matter that already existed in some form.
Colossians 1:16 ESV
For by HIM all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through HIM and for HIM.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΛΟΣΣΑΕΙΣ 1:16 Greek NT
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

The issue clearly is that Mr. Smith taught that GOD is of flesh and bone and was once like us. This would provide a need to limit GOD and make HIM a mere manufacturer or manipulator of someone's previous creation. I am surprised that you don't see this. If matter always existed then matter is before GOD and or was the design of someone or something else. And that makes GOD subordinated to someone or something else.
Colossians 1:16 tells us that all things were create by him and through him and for him. But it doesn't say that His creations were created out of nothing. You can create something using already existent material. The word "create" does not imply creation from nothing. The idea that God creates things out of self-existent matter and intelligence, only puts a limit on his ability to create from nothing. Ex Nihilo creation is a false concept and eternally impossible accord to the revelations of God that Joseph Smith received. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that God creates from nothing. It was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that intelligences and matter are eternal in nature and have always existed.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131: 7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

What was revealed to Joseph Smith is that we have always existed in one form or another. Originally we self-existed as intelligences. An intelligence is a self-existing entity that has consciousness and awareness. There never was a time when we did not exist. Through the process of spiritual birth to our Heavenly Parents, our intelligences were inseparably connected with spirit matter which is a more pure or fine matter that is not visible to the mortal eye. As children of our Father in Heaven, we lived in a premortal existence before coming to this earth. Our spirits were later sent to this earth and received a body made of more course matter that is visible to the mortal eye. As fallen mortal beings, our mortal bodies are not currently inseparable from our spirits since they separate at death. However, after this mortal experience, all mankind will receive resurrection and become immortal. Then will our immortal bodies be inseparably connected to our spirit bodies to never die again. That is our belief of our existence and the state of intelligences and matter in the universe.

I cannot imagine that there ever was a time in all eternity past that before God created out of nothing his first creation, that he existed for an eternity, before doing so, all alone with nothing else in existence but himself. In such a situation, God would have done nothing for all eternity past prior to creating his very first creation. I just can't buy that concept. It seems absurd to me.
 

LittleNipper

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Do Mormons teach that GOD created everything including all the elements, everything that exists down to that which is invisible from merely speaking?
Mormons do not believe in Ex Nihilo creation.

We teach that our Father In Heaven organized things from different types of matter.....matter that already existed in some form.
Colossians 1:16 ESV
For by HIM all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through HIM and for HIM.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΛΟΣΣΑΕΙΣ 1:16 Greek NT
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

The issue clearly is that Mr. Smith taught that GOD is of flesh and bone and was once like us. This would provide a need to limit GOD and make HIM a mere manufacturer or manipulator of someone's previous creation. I am surprised that you don't see this. If matter always existed then matter is before GOD and or was the design of someone or something else. And that makes GOD subordinated to someone or something else.
Colossians 1:16 tells us that all things were create by him and through him and for him. But it doesn't say that His creations were created out of nothing. You can create something using already existent material. The word "create" does not imply creation from nothing. The idea that God creates things out of self-existent matter and intelligence, only puts a limit on his ability to create from nothing. Ex Nihilo creation is a false concept and eternally impossible accord to the revelations of God that Joseph Smith received. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that God creates from nothing. It was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that intelligences and matter are eternal in nature and have always existed.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Doctrine and Covenants 131: 7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

What was revealed to Joseph Smith is that we have always existed in one form or another. Originally we self-existed as intelligences. An intelligence is a self-existing entity that has consciousness and awareness. There never was a time when we did not exist. Through the process of spiritual birth to our Heavenly Parents, our intelligences were inseparably connected with spirit matter which is a more pure or fine matter that is not visible to the mortal eye. As children of our Father in Heaven, we lived in a premortal existence before coming to this earth. Our spirits were later sent to this earth and received a body made of more course matter that is visible to the mortal eye. As fallen mortal beings, our mortal bodies are not currently inseparable from our spirits since they separate at death. However, after this mortal experience, all mankind will receive resurrection and become immortal. Then will our immortal bodies be inseparably connected to our spirit bodies to never die again. That is our belief of our existence and the state of intelligences and matter in the universe.

I cannot imagine that there ever was a time in all eternity past that before God created out of nothing his first creation, that he existed for an eternity, before doing so, all alone with nothing else in existence but himself. In such a situation, God would have done nothing for all eternity past prior to creating his very first creation. I just can't buy that concept. It seems absurd to me.
GOD Created, HE didn't manufacture. GOD also created TIME. GOD being Triune in HIS nature was never alone. GOD was and then HE created and set the gears in motion -- as it were (the clock started ticking). Mormon seem to Limit GOD to man's conception of reality --- flesh & bone, birth on a distant planet, marriage... They don't seem to accept GOD as GOD. We had no premortal existence. Perfect spirits have nothing to prove --- Christ certainly did not. Thou shall not tempt the LORD thy GOD.
 

onefour1

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Like I said before, if you read in the Book of Revelation, you will see evidence that we mortals existed in heaven before coming to this earth.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the above verses we see that Michael and his angels fought against Satan and his angels in the great war in heaven. Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven into this earth. Michael and his angels eventually sent to this earth and could overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and were subject unto death.

In other words, those who existed as Michael and his angels in a premortal life in heaven, were given the opportunity to come to this earth and experience mortal life where they needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan and were also subject to death as mortals. Michael is Adam and we are Michael's angels are the rest of us here on earth that are given the chance to overcome Satan through the blood of Jesus Christ.

We sided with Jesus in the war in heaven where He was foreordained to be the savior of the world. Also in the premortal existence in heaven he chose some of us to be his leaders while on this earth.

John 17:24-25
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20
20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Prophet Jeremiah was foreordained to be a prophet before he was born.

Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This is why in Ecclesiastes it tells us that our spirits will return to God upon death. A spirit cannot return to a place it has never been before.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the
dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Apostles of Jesus understood that man's spirit pre-existed his mortal time on this earth. This is why they wondered if the blind man sinned before he was born.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Jesus could have corrected their thinking but didn't. He simply replied that the man did not sin.

The Prophet Job tells us that when God was laying the foundations of the earth, that the sons of God were shouting for joy.

Job 38:1-7
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The Prophet Abraham had vision of the premortal existence and this is what he saw:

Abraham 3:22-28
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
 

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