Mormons?

[BS Filter]

Do you believe that the Lord reveals his truths through men on the earth?

All of God's truth is in Jesus Christ.

 

[Dr Grump]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

My point is Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Mormonism is not the Gospel that Paul preached, and the Apostle Paul told us that even if an angel of light preached a different Gospel, that is a false gospel and the angel is accursed.

Jesus was a false prophet. So was Mohammed. They all are.

 

[onefour1]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

My point is Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Mormonism is not the Gospel that Paul preached, and the Apostle Paul told us that even if an angel of light preached a different Gospel, that is a false gospel and the angel is accursed.

So what's new about you announcing that you think Joseph Smith is a false prophet? We already know what you think. We don't believe as you do and believe that Joseph Smith preached the SAME gospel as revealed to him by Jesus Christ himself.

 

[onefour1]

Do you believe that the Lord reveals his truths through men on the earth?

All of God's truth is in Jesus Christ.

But you didn't answer the question. Does Christ ever reveal his truth through men on earth?

 

[BS Filter]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

My point is Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Mormonism is not the Gospel that Paul preached, and the Apostle Paul told us that even if an angel of light preached a different Gospel, that is a false gospel and the angel is accursed.

So what's new about you announcing that you think Joseph Smith is a false prophet? We already know what you think. We don't believe as you do and believe that Joseph Smith preached the SAME gospel as revealed to him by Jesus Christ himself.

So you believe that the Apostle Paul is a liar.

 

[BS Filter]

Do you believe that the Lord reveals his truths through men on the earth?

All of God's truth is in Jesus Christ.

But you didn't answer the question. Does Christ ever reveal his truth through men on earth?

Yes, those that preach the Scriptures in the Bible.

 

[onefour1]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

My point is Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Mormonism is not the Gospel that Paul preached, and the Apostle Paul told us that even if an angel of light preached a different Gospel, that is a false gospel and the angel is accursed.

So what's new about you announcing that you think Joseph Smith is a false prophet? We already know what you think. We don't believe as you do and believe that Joseph Smith preached the SAME gospel as revealed to him by Jesus Christ himself.

So you believe that the Apostle Paul is a liar.

No, why would think that? Paul was a true Apostle of Jesus Christ.

 

[onefour1]

Do you believe that the Lord reveals his truths through men on the earth?

All of God's truth is in Jesus Christ.

But you didn't answer the question. Does Christ ever reveal his truth through men on earth?

Yes, those that preach the Scriptures in the Bible.

So do you think that the world of God is confined to the Bible?

 

[BS Filter]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

My point is Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Mormonism is not the Gospel that Paul preached, and the Apostle Paul told us that even if an angel of light preached a different Gospel, that is a false gospel and the angel is accursed.

So what's new about you announcing that you think Joseph Smith is a false prophet? We already know what you think. We don't believe as you do and believe that Joseph Smith preached the SAME gospel as revealed to him by Jesus Christ himself.

So you believe that the Apostle Paul is a liar.

No, why would think that? Paul was a true Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Well, now you have a problem. Read the first chapter of Galatians. Joseph Smith claims that he received his revelation from the angel Moroni.

 

[BS Filter]

Do you believe that the Lord reveals his truths through men on the earth?

All of God's truth is in Jesus Christ.

But you didn't answer the question. Does Christ ever reveal his truth through men on earth?

Yes, those that preach the Scriptures in the Bible.

So do you think that the world of God is confined to the Bible?

Yes. All real Christians believe that.

 

[MadChemist]

Question for my LDS friends.

As a Lutheran I can go into any Protestant or Catholic church in the world and be welcomed, baptized or not.

How come I am not welcomed in a LDS temple?

I am not sure how I would speak for Protestants or Catholics. I know I have attended their services and not been asked to leave.

I suspect you could be baptized into any church...in fact, much like our church, I suspect they would encourage it.

I don't try to answer the question around temples unless I know there is a clear understanding (not acceptance) of our doctrine regarding restoration, priesthood, and covenants. Without that understanding (again....not agreement), it simply sounds like we are exclusionary. I have fought that battle to often to go into without a basis for discussion.

I would just like to know what those boys don't want us heathens to see.

Wormhole to the Planet Kolob?

Test rifle range for the magic underwear?

Them trying to baptize us?

I find that very disrespectful.

If you think I've treated you that way on this thread....I apologize.

 

[MadChemist]

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Why would Jesus call us gods if there is only one God?

Another typical Mormon doctrine. Notice the small case "g". Where is that Scripture from?

That's from the same KJV Bible that you surely use. With the same use of capitals and lower case as what onefour1 quoted. I just googled to verify that it is not just our edition, but all editions of the KJV that make that use of upper and lower cases, and even at least one or two other non-KJV versions.

What is it that you are trying to dispute, here? It seems that any disagreement on your part is with the Bible itself, or at least with the KJV.

Mormonism doesn't rightly divide the Word. Read this.

Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34: Ye are Gods – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

The breaking of the word of God by anti-mormons, which you often quote, hold no weight with the faithful. Jesus said:

John 10:34-35
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

In other words, it means what it means and it is in this context in which Jesus used it to mean "gods".

So you believe that Scripture is saying that YOU can become God. Is that correct?

The scripture is saying exactly what it is saying, "I said ye are gods". In this context, Jesus is telling us that we are gods. But what does he mean by this? We believe that we (those of us on this earth) are the literal offspring of God our Heavenly Father.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

We believe that Gods beget gods. As his literal children, God refers to us as gods. Not that we rule over God's kingdom or that others on this earth should look to us as a god whom they should worship but that we are of the same species as God our Heavenly Father.

We believe that we, before coming to this earth, lived with God as spirits and are his literal offspring in spirit. This is why he is our Father in Heaven. There was a war in heaven before we all came to this earth where part of the children of God rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven into this earth. They became the devil and his angels. The rest of God's children sided with our Father and we were allowed to come to this earth and receive bodies of flesh and bones.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Consider this great scene in heaven where Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels. Who were Michael and angels? How does Michael and his angels overcome the devil and his angels? Verse 11 tells us. They overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. They also loved not their lives unto the death. Who is it that needs the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan? Is it not we who are on the earth? It says that those who overcome love not their lives unto the death. Who, other than we mortals, need Jesus' blood to overcome the devil and who suffer death. Is it not we who were there with Michael as his angels in the premortal existence who fought against the dragon? Are we not now in need of the blood of the Lamb? These verses are evidence that we lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth and all who have received bodies on this earth were faithful and sided with God in the war of heaven. You were there! You are a literal child of our Father in heaven. You are a god. This why Jesus refers to the Father's children as gods.

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Yes it is true that we do believe that among the very faithful of God's children that they can become like him in all respects.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It is the desire of God that we become like him. Would the Lord give us a commandment to become as perfect as our Father in heaven if it was not something that is possible?

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We believe that the verses In Isaiah which refers to there being only one God and beside Him there is no God is in reference to this world and that on this earth we worship none other but Him. He is the true God of this world and there are no other Gods that apply to us on this earth whom we should worship. We shouldn't worship any of the children of God other than Jesus Christ whom the father has sent. The rest of us are gods in the sense that we are the children of God and are of the same species, but we are not to be considered as God (with a capital G). God is God and we are his and are to worship him and him alone. However, we do believe that we can become perfect just as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We believe that in the eternities if faithful, we too can become a father or mother of our own spirit children and have our own kingdoms which will add to the glory of our Father in Heaven. Just as in this world, we grow up and become parents of our own children, we believe this is an eternal pattern for the faithful in eternity. We believe we can grow up to become like our Father and Mother in heaven. If you become one with the Father, you will never oppose the will of the Father.

The Apostle Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here the Apostle Paul is speaking of eating things that are offered to idols and says that "Idols are nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one." Then Paul clarifies that there be gods many, and lords many but that to us there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Here Paul clarifies that there are gods many and lords many, but for us here on earth there is but one God. Just as on earth there are father and mothers many but to each of us there is but one father and mother from whom we are born and belong to. For sure, on earth, there be those that are called gods and we know this because Jesus himself has called us gods. There will be some of us who go to heaven and thus we see that there are those also in heaven who are called gods. But we do not worship them but only the God to whom we belong, our Father in heaven.

When a believer acts according to GOD's will and behaves as GOD desires the believer to behave, then he becomes GOD's ambassador and in so doing becomes a god ---- because that one is accomplishing GOD's goals on GOD's behalf. Man is a created being. GOD was always and is forever. We have a beginning. As for there being many gods, that is so when ANYTHING becomes the focus of one's attention. Money becomes a god for one who wants more of it. Power becomes a god for one desiring to control and manipulate others. And a prophet becomes a god for those who embrace that individual's teachings at the expense of the TRUE Gospel of CHRIST. The Word clarifies the Word and exposes the falsehood of any other testament. One doesn't come to the FATHER by a burning in one's bosom. One comes to the FATHER through prayer and supplication in FAITH alone in the MESSIAH JESUS. The TRUE Word was never hid under a bushel. It sits high on a candle stand where it's light does the best work to illuminate the hearts of fallen men with GOD's salvation.

We believe that mankind's bodies were created originally from the dust of the earth and had their beginning at that time, however, we do not believe that the spirit of man had its beginning at that time but were the literal offspring of God the Father in the premortal world. There is alot of evidence of this in the Bible. A further belief of the church, however, is that before being born as spirit children of the Father, we existed eternally as intelligence which was never created or made but was as self-existent as God himself.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

In the above verse, Abraham calls the intelligences spirits.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The interesting thing about the above verse is that the disciples believed that the man could have sinned before being born. The Lord doesn't teach against this thought but simply gives them the true reason for the man's blindness.

Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Here the saints at Ephesus are told they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

"In Him". Notice all the instances in the Epistles of "in Him, in Christ, etc. We are predestined IN CHRIST when we believe in Him. We are in Him. We are the body of Christ.

So you do believe in predestination ?

In Christ, yes. That's what Scripture says.

We were the only Christians that lived on my street. Everybody else LDS.

That's incorrect.

LDS/Mormons are Christians.

However, once they found out we were Lutheran and would not be attending their church they shut us off. We never had any bad words or anything, just politely declining to go to their church.

My wife and I didn't care because we had other friends. However, the Mormons also would not let their children play with our children. That really pissed me off. Our sons did not understand why the neighborhood kids wouldn't associate with them. Even the ones they went to school with. That was a crappy thing to do.

That sort of behavior is not consistent with our values.

I cannot speak for your neighbors, or know why they behaved as they did (assuming you're telling the truth), but it certainly is not the sort of behavior that the church encourages of us.

So if Mormons are Christians, then are all of the other Christians that believe in Jesus going to be with God in eternity?

We all have the same potential in terms of where we land in eternity.

Realizing that potential extends well beyond this life.

I believe the Scriptures, I am saved by faith in Jesus. I will pass into eternity when my body dies. The Scriptures don't say anything about "potential".

There are three parables in Matthew 25.

What do you think they discuss.

Do you believe that the five foolish virgins were predestined to be foolish virgins.

I don't know. I don't think predestination is the point. I believe the Scriptures that clearly say I am saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Why did he deliver those three parables ?

What was he teaching ?

He was teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven. Stewardship. I'm sure you're gonna tell me it somehow refers to Mormonism.

You said the scriptures don't say anything about potential.

I am disagreeing.

If you don't want to discuss things, please be honest.

But to make the claims you have made so far seems a little dishonest if you call the Bible your "source of authority" and are unwilling to explain how it applies.

I am more than willing to discuss things. Disagreement is part of the conversation here. If you can't explain and defend your position, then move on. What's your source of authority?

My position is quite clear.

Matthew 25 and other scriptures most definitely talk about "potential". The five foolish virgins had the potential to be wise virgins. The parable of the sheep and the goats demonstrates we can choose to on the left or right hand of God through our choices to serve our fellowman.

If you don't agree, then please say so.

My source of authority is the preisthood of God given to his children on earth to administer his affairs. This includes those who are prophets who provide up to date correction for the saints as they wonder off the path.

Such was the case with Paul whose letters to various churches contained both praise and correction against errors.

We're discussing two different things. You believe that there is no assurance of salvation. I believe the Scriptures that state very clearly that Anyone who believes in Jesus is saved by faith. You're confused, not me.

Yet there are scriptures that state the opposite.

I am not confused.

Show me.

I just did.

Matthew 25 to start.

Nobody was predestined there.

Ok. So what is your point?

We'll just have to call this one a learning experience.

I don't see us making any progress here.

Exactly. You're trying to convince me Mormonism is real, and my faith is in Jesus and Scripture.

I think I stated early on that I don't believe we should try to convince anyone of anything.

I am asking for your perspective.

You seem bent on making statements about the church that are, in my estimation, both incorrect and uneducated.

However, it is clear you are on the defensive.

So I am, as you say, moving on.

Oh, I'm well educated on Mormonism. You're the one retreating, not me.

Call it what you will.

We are done.

 

[BS Filter]

John 10:31-36
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Why would Jesus call us gods if there is only one God?

Another typical Mormon doctrine. Notice the small case "g". Where is that Scripture from?

That's from the same KJV Bible that you surely use. With the same use of capitals and lower case as what onefour1 quoted. I just googled to verify that it is not just our edition, but all editions of the KJV that make that use of upper and lower cases, and even at least one or two other non-KJV versions.

What is it that you are trying to dispute, here? It seems that any disagreement on your part is with the Bible itself, or at least with the KJV.

Mormonism doesn't rightly divide the Word. Read this.

Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34: Ye are Gods – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

The breaking of the word of God by anti-mormons, which you often quote, hold no weight with the faithful. Jesus said:

John 10:34-35
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

In other words, it means what it means and it is in this context in which Jesus used it to mean "gods".

So you believe that Scripture is saying that YOU can become God. Is that correct?

The scripture is saying exactly what it is saying, "I said ye are gods". In this context, Jesus is telling us that we are gods. But what does he mean by this? We believe that we (those of us on this earth) are the literal offspring of God our Heavenly Father.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

We believe that Gods beget gods. As his literal children, God refers to us as gods. Not that we rule over God's kingdom or that others on this earth should look to us as a god whom they should worship but that we are of the same species as God our Heavenly Father.

We believe that we, before coming to this earth, lived with God as spirits and are his literal offspring in spirit. This is why he is our Father in Heaven. There was a war in heaven before we all came to this earth where part of the children of God rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven into this earth. They became the devil and his angels. The rest of God's children sided with our Father and we were allowed to come to this earth and receive bodies of flesh and bones.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Consider this great scene in heaven where Michael and his angels fought against the devil and his angels. Who were Michael and angels? How does Michael and his angels overcome the devil and his angels? Verse 11 tells us. They overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony. They also loved not their lives unto the death. Who is it that needs the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan? Is it not we who are on the earth? It says that those who overcome love not their lives unto the death. Who, other than we mortals, need Jesus' blood to overcome the devil and who suffer death. Is it not we who were there with Michael as his angels in the premortal existence who fought against the dragon? Are we not now in need of the blood of the Lamb? These verses are evidence that we lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth and all who have received bodies on this earth were faithful and sided with God in the war of heaven. You were there! You are a literal child of our Father in heaven. You are a god. This why Jesus refers to the Father's children as gods.

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Yes it is true that we do believe that among the very faithful of God's children that they can become like him in all respects.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It is the desire of God that we become like him. Would the Lord give us a commandment to become as perfect as our Father in heaven if it was not something that is possible?

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We believe that the verses In Isaiah which refers to there being only one God and beside Him there is no God is in reference to this world and that on this earth we worship none other but Him. He is the true God of this world and there are no other Gods that apply to us on this earth whom we should worship. We shouldn't worship any of the children of God other than Jesus Christ whom the father has sent. The rest of us are gods in the sense that we are the children of God and are of the same species, but we are not to be considered as God (with a capital G). God is God and we are his and are to worship him and him alone. However, we do believe that we can become perfect just as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We believe that in the eternities if faithful, we too can become a father or mother of our own spirit children and have our own kingdoms which will add to the glory of our Father in Heaven. Just as in this world, we grow up and become parents of our own children, we believe this is an eternal pattern for the faithful in eternity. We believe we can grow up to become like our Father and Mother in heaven. If you become one with the Father, you will never oppose the will of the Father.

The Apostle Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here the Apostle Paul is speaking of eating things that are offered to idols and says that "Idols are nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one." Then Paul clarifies that there be gods many, and lords many but that to us there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Here Paul clarifies that there are gods many and lords many, but for us here on earth there is but one God. Just as on earth there are father and mothers many but to each of us there is but one father and mother from whom we are born and belong to. For sure, on earth, there be those that are called gods and we know this because Jesus himself has called us gods. There will be some of us who go to heaven and thus we see that there are those also in heaven who are called gods. But we do not worship them but only the God to whom we belong, our Father in heaven.

When a believer acts according to GOD's will and behaves as GOD desires the believer to behave, then he becomes GOD's ambassador and in so doing becomes a god ---- because that one is accomplishing GOD's goals on GOD's behalf. Man is a created being. GOD was always and is forever. We have a beginning. As for there being many gods, that is so when ANYTHING becomes the focus of one's attention. Money becomes a god for one who wants more of it. Power becomes a god for one desiring to control and manipulate others. And a prophet becomes a god for those who embrace that individual's teachings at the expense of the TRUE Gospel of CHRIST. The Word clarifies the Word and exposes the falsehood of any other testament. One doesn't come to the FATHER by a burning in one's bosom. One comes to the FATHER through prayer and supplication in FAITH alone in the MESSIAH JESUS. The TRUE Word was never hid under a bushel. It sits high on a candle stand where it's light does the best work to illuminate the hearts of fallen men with GOD's salvation.

We believe that mankind's bodies were created originally from the dust of the earth and had their beginning at that time, however, we do not believe that the spirit of man had its beginning at that time but were the literal offspring of God the Father in the premortal world. There is alot of evidence of this in the Bible. A further belief of the church, however, is that before being born as spirit children of the Father, we existed eternally as intelligence which was never created or made but was as self-existent as God himself.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

In the above verse, Abraham calls the intelligences spirits.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The interesting thing about the above verse is that the disciples believed that the man could have sinned before being born. The Lord doesn't teach against this thought but simply gives them the true reason for the man's blindness.

Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Here the saints at Ephesus are told they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

"In Him". Notice all the instances in the Epistles of "in Him, in Christ, etc. We are predestined IN CHRIST when we believe in Him. We are in Him. We are the body of Christ.

So you do believe in predestination ?

In Christ, yes. That's what Scripture says.

We were the only Christians that lived on my street. Everybody else LDS.

That's incorrect.

LDS/Mormons are Christians.

However, once they found out we were Lutheran and would not be attending their church they shut us off. We never had any bad words or anything, just politely declining to go to their church.

My wife and I didn't care because we had other friends. However, the Mormons also would not let their children play with our children. That really pissed me off. Our sons did not understand why the neighborhood kids wouldn't associate with them. Even the ones they went to school with. That was a crappy thing to do.

That sort of behavior is not consistent with our values.

I cannot speak for your neighbors, or know why they behaved as they did (assuming you're telling the truth), but it certainly is not the sort of behavior that the church encourages of us.

So if Mormons are Christians, then are all of the other Christians that believe in Jesus going to be with God in eternity?

We all have the same potential in terms of where we land in eternity.

Realizing that potential extends well beyond this life.

I believe the Scriptures, I am saved by faith in Jesus. I will pass into eternity when my body dies. The Scriptures don't say anything about "potential".

There are three parables in Matthew 25.

What do you think they discuss.

Do you believe that the five foolish virgins were predestined to be foolish virgins.

I don't know. I don't think predestination is the point. I believe the Scriptures that clearly say I am saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Why did he deliver those three parables ?

What was he teaching ?

He was teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven. Stewardship. I'm sure you're gonna tell me it somehow refers to Mormonism.

You said the scriptures don't say anything about potential.

I am disagreeing.

If you don't want to discuss things, please be honest.

But to make the claims you have made so far seems a little dishonest if you call the Bible your "source of authority" and are unwilling to explain how it applies.

I am more than willing to discuss things. Disagreement is part of the conversation here. If you can't explain and defend your position, then move on. What's your source of authority?

My position is quite clear.

Matthew 25 and other scriptures most definitely talk about "potential". The five foolish virgins had the potential to be wise virgins. The parable of the sheep and the goats demonstrates we can choose to on the left or right hand of God through our choices to serve our fellowman.

If you don't agree, then please say so.

My source of authority is the preisthood of God given to his children on earth to administer his affairs. This includes those who are prophets who provide up to date correction for the saints as they wonder off the path.

Such was the case with Paul whose letters to various churches contained both praise and correction against errors.

We're discussing two different things. You believe that there is no assurance of salvation. I believe the Scriptures that state very clearly that Anyone who believes in Jesus is saved by faith. You're confused, not me.

Yet there are scriptures that state the opposite.

I am not confused.

Show me.

I just did.

Matthew 25 to start.

Nobody was predestined there.

Ok. So what is your point?

We'll just have to call this one a learning experience.

I don't see us making any progress here.

Exactly. You're trying to convince me Mormonism is real, and my faith is in Jesus and Scripture.

I think I stated early on that I don't believe we should try to convince anyone of anything.

I am asking for your perspective.

You seem bent on making statements about the church that are, in my estimation, both incorrect and uneducated.

However, it is clear you are on the defensive.

So I am, as you say, moving on.

Oh, I'm well educated on Mormonism. You're the one retreating, not me.

Call it what you will.

We are done.

Okay

 

[MadChemist]

So....if you are a Mormon, can you explain the concept of what it is and why you chose that path? Did you do it on your own, or were you born into it due to family? What do you like/dislike about it?

I'd like to share some of what led me to the church. It isn't about liking or disliking....it is about something that had called to me for a long time.

I was born to two nomadic parents who didn't stay in touch much with their families.

Two of my grandparents passed before I was born. One passed shortly after I was born. The last one passed away when I was eight years old. She lived far away from us so I only recall seeing her once.

I was five when JFK was assassinated. We were living on Cadina AFB on Okinawa. My father was a Major in the Air Force. He was a former figher pilot now flying transport. Things were tense on the base during that time. I woke up one morning while it was still dark because my mother was cooking. She could not sleep. We had a very interesting conversation about life, death, and the hereafter. I repeatedly asked her if we stayed who we were and if we would be with family, specifically those grandparents I never knew.

My mother could not answer those questions.

Independently, I believed deep down inside that family would be together at some level. Even though I had very little family to speak of.

I had a brother who was three years younger than me.

Shortly after JFK's death, we moved to South Carolina. Vietnam was heating up so my dad was gone for months at a time.

When I was nine, he departed our family for another woman. I was devastated.

My mother, brother and I relocated back to the house I was born in...in Scottsdale, Arizona.

When I was fifteen I came across some teachings about eternal families and found them connected to the LDS church. I knew one thing about the church....per my mom......they didn't drink coke. I wrote them off because I consumed coke by the gallon.

But now it was serious.

I didn't join right away. Liking a doctrine is one thing. Getting a testimony it was true was something else. I waited six months per my mother while I went through the steps of investigation (visiting pastors and like).

There was a strong religious movement at school and there was a lot of literature flying around (the Second Coming was a big topic with my Christian friends). This include anti-mormon literature which I found somewhat disconcerting. Other friends were investigating and more than a few arguments the resulted in hurt feelings but few changes of heart. I gained my own testimony and went forward with my plans to be baptized..

I have a strong testimony of our Lord's love for his children and for his endless patience with us as we move through this life learning as we go. I also know he hears and answers prayers and is with us especially in our deepest struggles. In the end, I have full faith in divine justice and believe God will ensure that everyone has the opportunity to hear and accept the principles of his eternal gospel.

 

[MadChemist]

The "problem" with the Joseph Smith religion is that it is too recent, so that many of its beliefs can be disproven. It's not just the pie-in-the-sky stuff that is not subject to measurement, it's the actual factual claims that are - hate to say it - false. Did Christ walk on water? Nobody today can disprove it. But did Joe Smith receive golden tablets from the angel Moroni, translating them from "reformed Egyptian" to English? No.

There is no genetic or archaeological evidence to support the basic history of the Book of Mormon. No artifacts, no Native Americans with Semitic genes, none of it. In fact, given the breadth of the claims, the total lack of corroboration is proof that it is all made up. Further, Smith's beliefs that the Amerindians descended from the so-called "lost tribes of Israel" was fairly common at Smith's time.

There is no such language as "reformed Egyptian," and never was. The "witnesses" to the BoM were compromised and simply cannot be believed.

The fraud of the Book of Abraham has never been explained away, as that is not really possible. Smith took a document that he presumed NOBODY would ever be able to translate, and made up a story about a biblical figure that is now part of LDS scripture. It was later translated by a competent linguist and it had nothing to do with Abraham or any Hebrew, and was off in time by centuries.

The LDS religion is, by most accounts, a valuable cultural addition to the American mosaic, producing good citizens by the hundreds of thousands. But theologically it is balderdash. Maybe all religions are, but LDS is provable balderdash.

And if stating an obvious truth makes me a bigot, then send me to jail. Guilty as charged.

Joseph Smith was killed in illinois I still can't figure that one out..



Part of Anti-Mormon violence in the U.S. Joseph Smith, the founder and leader of the Latter Day Saint movement, and his brother, Hyrum Smith, were killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, United States, on June 27, 1844, while awaiting trial in the town jail. ...
Resulted in: Deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith
Location: Carthage, Illinois, U.S.
Date: June 27, 1844; 176 years ago
Wikipedia › wiki › Death_of_Josep...
Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

The early saints were driven out of several locations and eventually wound up in Nauvoo, Illinois. The church now holds a lot of property there and has maintained many of the residences that were constructed during that time.

The city swelled and the potential voting block it represented caused a lot of grief with the surrounding settlers. This was supposed to be the frontier. Members of the church didn't help their cause any with they way the treated some of the surrounding residents. The introduction of things like polygamy only further alienated those outside of Nauvoo.

Joseph Smith had been incarcertted (sp) several times on charges that would later be dropped. In one instance, a military commander ordered his execution. James Donovan, not a mormo, stood up for Smith, refused the order, and threatened the offending commander with legal action if he carried out his threat.

Violence against saints in Nauvoo caused Jospeh Smith to call up the Nauvoo Legion. This was seen as treason and he was arrested and sent to Carthage Illinois.

He stated he was going like a lamb to the slaughter.

His brother, Hyrum, and two other companions were also arrested and sent with him.

A mob, estimated at 150 men, dressed as indians stormed the jail. Smith and his brother were killed. One of the companions was badly wounded. The other was not hurt.

 

[onefour1]

If the Lord reveals his will through a prophet, apostle, etc. if you are going to receive the word of the Lord through his chosen servants, you better believe that they are his chosen servants or you will not believe the will of the Lord which he reveals through them. This is a personal choice and obviously you do not believe that Joseph was his chosen servant but I do. So what is your point?

My point is Joseph Smith is a false prophet. Mormonism is not the Gospel that Paul preached, and the Apostle Paul told us that even if an angel of light preached a different Gospel, that is a false gospel and the angel is accursed.

So what's new about you announcing that you think Joseph Smith is a false prophet? We already know what you think. We don't believe as you do and believe that Joseph Smith preached the SAME gospel as revealed to him by Jesus Christ himself.

So you believe that the Apostle Paul is a liar.

No, why would think that? Paul was a true Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Well, now you have a problem. Read the first chapter of Galatians. Joseph Smith claims that he received his revelation from the angel Moroni.

I'm sorry but the gospel Joseph Smith received was not another gospel but the same gospel for he had the same testimony as Paul:

Galatians 1:12
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

If you had ever read the revelations of God to Joseph Smith you would know that most of them were not from Moroni. Moroni appeared so as to show Joseph were he buried the golden plates. But the doctrines of the church were revealed from the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

So do you believe that God has revealed all that he is going to reveal to us only in the bible? Do you think it is possible for him to reveal anything more to his children? Or do you think those who profess this so called doctrine are attempting to tie the hands of God by claiming this absurd teaching. Where is the proof that this is so?

 

[MadChemist]

The "problem" with the Joseph Smith religion is that it is too recent, so that many of its beliefs can be disproven. It's not just the pie-in-the-sky stuff that is not subject to measurement, it's the actual factual claims that are - hate to say it - false. Did Christ walk on water? Nobody today can disprove it. But did Joe Smith receive golden tablets from the angel Moroni, translating them from "reformed Egyptian" to English? No.

There is no genetic or archaeological evidence to support the basic history of the Book of Mormon. No artifacts, no Native Americans with Semitic genes, none of it. In fact, given the breadth of the claims, the total lack of corroboration is proof that it is all made up. Further, Smith's beliefs that the Amerindians descended from the so-called "lost tribes of Israel" was fairly common at Smith's time.

There is no such language as "reformed Egyptian," and never was. The "witnesses" to the BoM were compromised and simply cannot be believed.

The fraud of the Book of Abraham has never been explained away, as that is not really possible. Smith took a document that he presumed NOBODY would ever be able to translate, and made up a story about a biblical figure that is now part of LDS scripture. It was later translated by a competent linguist and it had nothing to do with Abraham or any Hebrew, and was off in time by centuries.

The LDS religion is, by most accounts, a valuable cultural addition to the American mosaic, producing good citizens by the hundreds of thousands. But theologically it is balderdash. Maybe all religions are, but LDS is provable balderdash.

And if stating an obvious truth makes me a bigot, then send me to jail. Guilty as charged.

There is an organization called Fairmormon. I don't follow it. While there may be some value in the premise it works off of, it tends to pull things to the level you are approaching them with.

That you somehow make yourself final judge seems a bit arrogant. Knowledge is forever coming forward that changes the story.

Did Joseph Smith receive the golden plates. You don't know. You were not there.

You are making the categorical statement with absolute certainty that he did not translate them. What is your all-knowing basis for this ? You were not there.

There is no known reformed egyptian. Does not mean it didn't exist. Up until 1990 we had a very limited view of the universe and all kinds of incorrect assumptions. Hubble changed all that. Even today, the used-to-be-accepted idea that your brain was fully formed and not changing after puberty has been flattened by much of the research done on stroke recovery. Brain plasticity has been proven but is still argued by the old-guard.

Who created the standard of judgement that says the three witnesses can't be believed ? They all left the church but never denied their testimonies. People have split words over their statements.....in the end, they never recanted. The websites that say the opposite are delusional.

The so-called Fraud of the book of Abraham has had several explanations offered up....I frankly don't care. The Book of Enoch has provided some interesting discussion points....but again.....I don't care.

Nowhere does the Lord invite anyone to base their believe on archeological, historical or DNA information.

His invitation is simple. Read it and ask God, the Eternal Father, if it is true. Pure and simple.

Some make the claim that Jesus was not the Son of God. Others, that he did not exist. Obviously, many claim he did. Determining for oneself isn't a matter of intellectual pursuit. Learning is important, but Hebrews 11:1 provides the definition of faith that it is a belief in things not seen.

Above all else, our Eternal Father is a being of infinite wisdom and understanding. He does not reveal all things as he asks us to proceed in faith...not faith in archeologists....faith in HIm.

The Book Of Mormon is a book that teaches principles, eternal principles. It is just part of (a very important part of) a broader church that includes other scripture, ongoing revelation and correction, and his holy priesthood. The Book is intended to bring us closer to Christ by witnessing of him. All of it intended to help understand where we came from, why we are here, and where we will go after death. A large part of that understanding is that we need to strive to become more like the Saviour and exemplify his teachings in our own lives. We are to serve and bless those around us and in so doing we do the work of the Father and are born again as we are changed through those experiences.

That is the focus of the church and it's leadership.

Fairmormon might do "something"....but it does not interest me.

 

[Wyatt earp]

The "problem" with the Joseph Smith religion is that it is too recent, so that many of its beliefs can be disproven. It's not just the pie-in-the-sky stuff that is not subject to measurement, it's the actual factual claims that are - hate to say it - false. Did Christ walk on water? Nobody today can disprove it. But did Joe Smith receive golden tablets from the angel Moroni, translating them from "reformed Egyptian" to English? No.

There is no genetic or archaeological evidence to support the basic history of the Book of Mormon. No artifacts, no Native Americans with Semitic genes, none of it. In fact, given the breadth of the claims, the total lack of corroboration is proof that it is all made up. Further, Smith's beliefs that the Amerindians descended from the so-called "lost tribes of Israel" was fairly common at Smith's time.

There is no such language as "reformed Egyptian," and never was. The "witnesses" to the BoM were compromised and simply cannot be believed.

The fraud of the Book of Abraham has never been explained away, as that is not really possible. Smith took a document that he presumed NOBODY would ever be able to translate, and made up a story about a biblical figure that is now part of LDS scripture. It was later translated by a competent linguist and it had nothing to do with Abraham or any Hebrew, and was off in time by centuries.

The LDS religion is, by most accounts, a valuable cultural addition to the American mosaic, producing good citizens by the hundreds of thousands. But theologically it is balderdash. Maybe all religions are, but LDS is provable balderdash.

And if stating an obvious truth makes me a bigot, then send me to jail. Guilty as charged.

Joseph Smith was killed in illinois I still can't figure that one out..



Part of Anti-Mormon violence in the U.S. Joseph Smith, the founder and leader of the Latter Day Saint movement, and his brother, Hyrum Smith, were killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, United States, on June 27, 1844, while awaiting trial in the town jail. ...
Resulted in: Deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith
Location: Carthage, Illinois, U.S.
Date: June 27, 1844; 176 years ago
Wikipedia › wiki › Death_of_Josep...
Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

The early saints were driven out of several locations and eventually wound up in Nauvoo, Illinois. The church now holds a lot of property there and has maintained many of the residences that were constructed during that time.

The city swelled and the potential voting block it represented caused a lot of grief with the surrounding settlers. This was supposed to be the frontier. Members of the church didn't help their cause any with they way the treated some of the surrounding residents. The introduction of things like polygamy only further alienated those outside of Nauvoo.

Joseph Smith had been incarcertted (sp) several times on charges that would later be dropped. In one instance, a military commander ordered his execution. James Donovan, not a mormo, stood up for Smith, refused the order, and threatened the offending commander with legal action if he carried out his threat.

Violence against saints in Nauvoo caused Jospeh Smith to call up the Nauvoo Legion. This was seen as treason and he was arrested and sent to Carthage Illinois.

He stated he was going like a lamb to the slaughter.

His brother, Hyrum, and two other companions were also arrested and sent with him.

A mob, estimated at 150 men, dressed as indians stormed the jail. Smith and his brother were killed. One of the companions was badly wounded. The other was not hurt.

Wow interesting, he went all the way to Utah and back to illinois?

On horse back/or a train..

This blows my mind away

 

[Wyatt earp]

I always say Paul/muhammad/ joseph smith were all the same.

Full of shit

 

[MadChemist]

The "problem" with the Joseph Smith religion is that it is too recent, so that many of its beliefs can be disproven. It's not just the pie-in-the-sky stuff that is not subject to measurement, it's the actual factual claims that are - hate to say it - false. Did Christ walk on water? Nobody today can disprove it. But did Joe Smith receive golden tablets from the angel Moroni, translating them from "reformed Egyptian" to English? No.

There is no genetic or archaeological evidence to support the basic history of the Book of Mormon. No artifacts, no Native Americans with Semitic genes, none of it. In fact, given the breadth of the claims, the total lack of corroboration is proof that it is all made up. Further, Smith's beliefs that the Amerindians descended from the so-called "lost tribes of Israel" was fairly common at Smith's time.

There is no such language as "reformed Egyptian," and never was. The "witnesses" to the BoM were compromised and simply cannot be believed.

The fraud of the Book of Abraham has never been explained away, as that is not really possible. Smith took a document that he presumed NOBODY would ever be able to translate, and made up a story about a biblical figure that is now part of LDS scripture. It was later translated by a competent linguist and it had nothing to do with Abraham or any Hebrew, and was off in time by centuries.

The LDS religion is, by most accounts, a valuable cultural addition to the American mosaic, producing good citizens by the hundreds of thousands. But theologically it is balderdash. Maybe all religions are, but LDS is provable balderdash.

And if stating an obvious truth makes me a bigot, then send me to jail. Guilty as charged.

Joseph Smith was killed in illinois I still can't figure that one out..



Part of Anti-Mormon violence in the U.S. Joseph Smith, the founder and leader of the Latter Day Saint movement, and his brother, Hyrum Smith, were killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, United States, on June 27, 1844, while awaiting trial in the town jail. ...
Resulted in: Deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith
Location: Carthage, Illinois, U.S.
Date: June 27, 1844; 176 years ago
Wikipedia › wiki › Death_of_Josep...
Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

The early saints were driven out of several locations and eventually wound up in Nauvoo, Illinois. The church now holds a lot of property there and has maintained many of the residences that were constructed during that time.

The city swelled and the potential voting block it represented caused a lot of grief with the surrounding settlers. This was supposed to be the frontier. Members of the church didn't help their cause any with they way the treated some of the surrounding residents. The introduction of things like polygamy only further alienated those outside of Nauvoo.

Joseph Smith had been incarcertted (sp) several times on charges that would later be dropped. In one instance, a military commander ordered his execution. James Donovan, not a mormo, stood up for Smith, refused the order, and threatened the offending commander with legal action if he carried out his threat.

Violence against saints in Nauvoo caused Jospeh Smith to call up the Nauvoo Legion. This was seen as treason and he was arrested and sent to Carthage Illinois.

He stated he was going like a lamb to the slaughter.

His brother, Hyrum, and two other companions were also arrested and sent with him.

A mob, estimated at 150 men, dressed as indians stormed the jail. Smith and his brother were killed. One of the companions was badly wounded. The other was not hurt.

Wow interesting, he went all the way to Utah and back to illinois?

On horse back/or a train..

This blows my mind away

Joseph Smith never went to Utah.

He was going to leave Nauvoo (this is from memory) and head west. But he decided against it, knowing it would not end well for him.

The LDS were eventually driven from Nauvoo by mobs and headed to Winter Quarters around Council Bluffs Nebraska. They wintered there and started for the Mountain West the following Spring.

Many of them walked the entire distance pulling "handcarts" that had all their belongings.

This was all done under the direction of Brigham Young, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve.