Zone1 Beauty Culture and Works-Based Religions: Mormons and Amish

[Meriweather]

all for it as long as they cant adopt a female.

So you know what is best for females.... And, apparently adding more males to be with these remaining females is your answer.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I go back to the source, who is Martin Luther. Apparently he had a very strict father, who kept him busy with chores and what he did was never good enough. He felt he had to earn his place in his family, perhaps even earn his father's love, possibly?

This followed Martin Luther into the Church, where he seemed to think he had to work to stay in the family of God instead of realizing that the family of God is where he belonged, a place where the Body of Christ works/serves together with love.

Thank.

I am going to try and go a little farther with this.

I think you made the distinquishing point when you said "earn his father's love".

That we DON'T have to do. He loves all his children. That is who He is.

At the same time, he can't violate his own laws.

We love our children, but if they were to break a temporal law, we should expect them to pay the price for doing so. When we were raising them, we didn't like grounding them, but that was the "law".

There is a big difference and you articulated it.

But there are many who don't love God and who break his laws without remorse. He still loves them, but cannot save them in their sins. His gift of forgiveness depends upon our sincere desire to change. Otherwise we crucify him anew by claiming salvation and throwing his commandments back in his face. It doesn't work that way.

A "Works Based Faith" such as was brought up by the OP, meaning it was being derided, can only be derided if it replaces the gift of Christ with our own works and a belief that is good enough.

I don't know about the Amish, but the LDS church teaches that God as provide some level of glory for everyone. Saint and sinner alike. However, there are different degrees of glory and getting to "better" degrees is not a matter of doing things to check a box, but to experience the impact of change wrought by the Holy Ghost as you seek to grow closer. But you have to do it.

There is no choosing to follow/not follow the gentle commands of the Father and expecting a similar result in the next life. That simply does not fly.

In the parable of the prodigal son, many think the prodigal was again on equal footing with the brother who remained faithful. The Father tells his son "all that I have is thine", meaning the deal is still in place. He tells him his brother is back and that is great. But his brother spent his inheritance and will not be accorded another one in the future.

 

[HikerGuy83]

My confusion (as a child and even now) is that no one has to work to get into their family,

That is your acceptance.

But that acceptance isn't a guarantee of anything other than your parents love (in the case of your Heavenly Parents).

All the scriptures teach that there is an expectation that you perform at some level.

As evidenced by the parables in Matthew 25, if you don't perform, you don't receive an eternal blessing equal to those who do perform.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I didn't watch the program. I don't need that. Faith without works is dead. Any effort to help others and yourself to strengthen faith moving towards the goal of Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ are righteous works. And, the purpose and goals of the Godhead are to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. Any effort or ordinance that does this is righteous works.

Can you provide

A works-based Christian faith might not expressly state that the way to God is to "be good", but they operate that way.

This is the fallacy. "They operate that way.....".

Just what does that mean (faith based works)? What is put out in the OP is utter garbage. Utah Curls, or whatever it is does not represent the LDS church by ANY STRETCH of the imagination.

The definition goes beyond what is described there....or at least that has been my experience.

 

[SweetSue92]

Can you provide

This is the fallacy. "They operate that way.....".

Just what does that mean (faith based works)? What is put out in the OP is utter garbage. Utah Curls, or whatever it is does not represent the LDS church by ANY STRETCH of the imagination.

The definition goes beyond what is described there....or at least that has been my experience.

It means that your works get you into Heaven. It's a works based religion, as I said. And that comes out in many ways.

 

[HikerGuy83]

It means that your works get you into Heaven.

And where does Jesus Christ fit into a works based religion?

 

[SweetSue92]

And where does Jesus Christ fit into a works based religion?

He doesn't. You have Joseph Smith instead. Ask any Christian

 

[HikerGuy83]

He doesn't. You have Joseph Smith instead. Ask any Christian

Ask any Christian what, exactly?

 

[HikerGuy83]

He doesn't. You have Joseph Smith instead. Ask any Christian

Thank you for answering honestly.

That you don't understand LDS theology is clear.

I have no more interest in attempting to explain what is clear to anyone who isn't massively bigoted or ignorant.

Your OP is a lie and is a direct contradiction of much of what Christianity teaches.

 

[onefour1]

Again.

You will only be saved by Jesus "after everything you can do". (Nephi 25:23)

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

This verse from the Book of Mormon is used by anti-Mormons all the time trying to emphasize that you have to do all that you could possibly do before Christ will save us from our sins. However, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not read this into the text. When we read this verse we believe it is saying that if we could do all that we can do by keeping the commandments of God and doing good works, we would still fall short without the saving grace of Jesus Christ. So, after all we can do, we would still need God's grace to be saved. I don't believe the author of this verse, Nephi, believed that we need to do absolutely all that we can do before Jesus will save us. I believe the point Nephi was making is that even if we could do all that we can do, we would still need the grace of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. I have been a member for over 50 years and never once have I heard it taught that we must do all that we can do or we will not be saved by God. We do however believe that we should make good effort in living according to God's commandments and to love and respect others as our fellow children of God and try to help them see the importance of also following the teachings of God and believing in him.

 

[Cougarbear]

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

This verse from the Book of Mormon is used by anti-Mormons all the time trying to emphasize that you have to do all that you could possibly do before Christ will save us from our sins. However, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not read this into the text. When we read this verse we believe it is saying that if we could do all that we can do by keeping the commandments of God and doing good works, we would still fall short without the saving grace of Jesus Christ. So, after all we can do, we would still need God's grace to be saved. I don't believe the author of this verse, Nephi, believed that we need to do absolutely all that we can do before Jesus will save us. I believe the point Nephi was making is that even if we could do all that we can do, we would still need the grace of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. I have been a member for over 50 years and never once have I heard it taught that we must do all that we can do or we will not be saved by God. We do however believe that we should make good effort in living according to God's commandments and to love and respect others as our fellow children of God and try to help them see the importance of also following the teachings of God and believing in him.

Eph. 2:8, "For by Grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH." And, faith without works is dead. So, the key is, what are the works of faith? Repentance, baptism, receive the Holy Ghost, Love God by keeping the commandments and keep all our covenants we make with God. The word Grace means Gift. Other scriptures state we have to first believe in Christ to gain salvation and eternal life. So, it starts with belief and moves to faith in Christ. Our belief, not God's. So, it does depend on us to receive the gift for our efforts in faith.
An example I sometimes use is many years back in about 1988, we bought a mobile home with two rooms. We had 2 boys and a daughter on the way. The park made us add another room for our daughter. I told friends and members at the Church. No one offered to help. Then, a long time friend without encouragement or bribery, stepped up and said he would build it and take the lead. He stated he wanted no pay for it. But, he wanted me to help where I could. I'm no carpenter. He drew up the plans and got them approved by the county. We paid for that and the materials. As it was going up, when we needed some help, then some friends chipped in as well as my father-in-law. He was a carpenter. After it was finished, my wife and I gave him a really nice gift and he lit up when he saw it. Just what he wanted. He never asked. His good works ended up with a really great gift. And, an everlasting friendship even though we are on the opposite sides of the political spectrum.

 

[onefour1]

Eph. 2:8, "For by Grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH." And, faith without works is dead. So, the key is, what are the works of faith? Repentance, baptism, receive the Holy Ghost, Love God by keeping the commandments and keep all our covenants we make with God. The word Grace means Gift. Other scriptures state we have to first believe in Christ to gain salvation and eternal life. So, it starts with belief and moves to faith in Christ. Our belief, not God's. So, it does depend on us to receive the gift for our efforts in faith.
An example I sometimes use is many years back in about 1988, we bought a mobile home with two rooms. We had 2 boys and a daughter on the way. The park made us add another room for our daughter. I told friends and members at the Church. No one offered to help. Then, a long time friend without encouragement or bribery, stepped up and said he would build it and take the lead. He stated he wanted no pay for it. But, he wanted me to help where I could. I'm no carpenter. He drew up the plans and got them approved by the county. We paid for that and the materials. As it was going up, when we needed some help, then some friends chipped in as well as my father-in-law. He was a carpenter. After it was finished, my wife and I gave him a really nice gift and he lit up when he saw it. Just what he wanted. He never asked. His good works ended up with a really great gift. And, an everlasting friendship even though we are on the opposite sides of the political spectrum.

I believe that through faith we can access the saving grace of Jesus Christ. However, without Jesus' atoning sacrifice, no matter how much faith we have in something, we cannot be saved. I believe that Jesus requires us to have faith unto good works before he will grant his saving grace upon us. Faith and works are required of us but without the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, they alone cannot save us. Thus the verses mentioned below:

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here we learn that it is by grace that we are saved. I believe that through faith we come unto this grace. Without faith in Jesus' atoning sacrifice, one does not come to a belief that Jesus can grant us mercy and grace.

2 Nephi 25:23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

This verse tells us that after all we can do, we are still saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. In other words faith and works do not save us but only the grace of Jesus Christ. The faith and works bring us closer to God and thus give us the hope that Jesus can and will bless us with his mercy and grace which is the saving power behind our salvation.

I believe that Jesus, whether in this life or the spirit world, requires of us to exercise faith unto good works before he will grant his grace upon us to save us.

 

[SweetSue92]

I believe that Jesus, whether in this life or the spirit world, requires of us to exercise faith unto good works before he will grant his grace upon us to save us.

Yes, as I said. Jesus can and will only act when your works have proven worthy. So in short, just another perversion of the Gospel.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I believe that through faith we can access the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints teaches a unique doctrine as found in D&C 76.

That is the doctrine of unique degrees of Glory.

In fact, LDS doctrine is very generous in that just about everyone is saved to some degree of Glory.

The Christian Doctrines of Justification, Sanctification and (sometimes) Glorification all relate to different "states" and actually align with the theology of the three degrees of glory quite well.

The lowest kingdom is actually for those who Christians would believe are going to hell. These are people who actively break commandments (liars, adulterers, murderers, theifs....etc.). D&C 93 says they will be exposed to the law of Justice at some level, but ultimately, will be saved to this lowest degree of glory (which is a degree of glory) even though they do not truly accept Christ in their lives. They are the unjust.

The middle and highest kingdom are for those who actually engage in the eternal principles of the gospel and make available the gifts available through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

None of this is possible......not the saving of sinners to the lowest kingdom or the potential for greater glory.....without the central concept of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

To say he doesn't factor into our salvation is ignorant.

The Book of Mormon states (in more than one place)

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

That is ANY form of redemption.

The simple concept of availing ourselves of the Gift of the Atonement has been twisted to mean "works".

While New Testament writers are clear, there is some connection (Jesus himself commands us to be perfect or whole) at the end of a huge list of "works" he just described in Matthew 5.

Those "works" are simply part of accepting the gift he has offered. It does no one any good to be given a gift if they do not accept it. But, as stated, his grace has such reach as to even redeem those who don't. To a lesser degree of glory.

How wonderful is that!!!!

As to the foolishness of post #87, and, in fact, the thread premise......Joseph Smith answers:

Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3–4).

Of Him the Prophet also declared: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).

Joseph Smith declared himself a prophet. A man, like other men in ancient times whom the Lord worked through.

Joseph Smith declared that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, a god, and the author and finisher of our faith......

His gift to us is offered freely. It is up to us to accept it.

In college, a friend of mine always wanted to "save my soul" and this was one of his key points....you can do NOTHING.

I asked him one day how he knew he was saved.....

He stated that on a specific date, he accepted Christ into his life. He stated a prayer and opened his heart.

And he never could respond very well when I informed him that was no less a "work" on his part than my interest in growing (becoming sanctified through Christ). Several times he said "it was different". But he could not satisfactorily tell me the difference.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I believe that Jesus requires us to have faith unto good works before he will grant his saving grace upon us.

To what end?

That is the question most evangelicals won't answer.

It is quite clear that "faith without works is dead".

But does a good work here on earth have any effect on your eternal outcome?

Surely, it cannot be disputed that we are called to do good things. Are they optional?

I'm already "saved" so what does it matter.

Do them....I'm still saved.

Don't do them....I'm still saved.

To what end?

And if it is meaningless....why does the Sermon on the mount exist?

 

[HikerGuy83]

So, it starts with belief and moves to faith in Christ.

Another place the "save without works" crowd won't touch.....

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

How is obedience not works...?

That is doing. Eternal salvation comes to those who OBEY him.

What are works? How are they not obedience?

 

[onefour1]

To what end?

That is the question most evangelicals won't answer.

It is quite clear that "faith without works is dead".

But does a good work here on earth have any effect on your eternal outcome?

Surely, it cannot be disputed that we are called to do good things. Are they optional?

I'm already "saved" so what does it matter.

Do them....I'm still saved.

Don't do them....I'm still saved.

To what end?

And if it is meaningless....why does the Sermon on the mount exist?

I don't believe that works are meaningless. I believe that God requires us to have faith in Him and as you have stated, faith without works is dead. So in order to have a true faith, one must perform good works. They are part of the path which leads us to the grace of God. However, they, the works, are not what does the actually saving. They are necessary to lead us unto He who saves who is Jesus Christ. So works do have an effect which brings unto a true faith, and that faith in Jesus is what brings us unto his redeeming grace. Without Jesus' grace, no matter how many works we do we cannot be saved. I don't think that good works are optional. They are required of us to have a true faith. A true faith in Jesus Christ with the essential works is what brings us unto a hope in receiving the grace of God. The purpose of God is that we become good beings by following the teachings of Jesus and repenting of our sins and learning to love and care for all of God's children. A person who is saved has learned that becoming a good person and remaining a good person is essential in God's plan of salvation. Ceasing to do good works and using the excuse that you don't need to continue to do good works is a self deception believing that you are already saved. A person who is truly saved knows that the repentance and turning from doing evil to doing good continually is part of the path of truly being saved.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I don't believe that works are meaningless. I believe that God requires us to have faith in Him and as you have stated, faith without works is dead. So in order to have a true faith, one must perform good works. They are part of the path which leads us to the grace of God. However, they, the works, are not what does the actually saving. They are necessary to lead us unto He who saves who is Jesus Christ. So works do have an effect which brings unto a true faith, and that faith in Jesus is what brings us unto his redeeming grace. Without Jesus' grace, no matter how many works we do we cannot be saved. I don't think that good works are optional. They are required of us to have a true faith. A true faith in Jesus Christ with the essential works is what brings us unto a hope in receiving the grace of God. The purpose of God is that we become good beings by following the teachings of Jesus and repenting of our sins and learning to love and care for all of God's children. A person who is saved has learned that becoming a good person and remaining a good person is essential in God's plan of salvation. Ceasing to do good works and using the excuse that you don't need to continue to do good works is a self deception believing that you are already saved. A person who is truly saved knows that the repentance and turning from doing evil to doing good continually is part of the path of truly being saved.

Dallin H. Oaks states we quality for Eternal Life through the process of conversion.

This is a lifelong evolution (and well beyond mortality).

We can only change for the positive through the grace of Jesus Christ.

As to your comments....do you think an evangelical would agree with you?

What they do is tell us how Jesus saves......regardless. Meaning if you are saved, you are saved. Works "follow" which is total hogwash. Plenty of born again Christians fail. Did they really not obtain salvation? What happens if they turn it around again.

And why all the statements in the NEW Testament saying faith without works is dead.

"If you love Me, keep my commandments". How does that fit in?

I would love for our resident stone thrower, the OP to step in and get real instead of dropping these little bits of bs.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Jesus can and will only act when your works have proven worthy.

This is from a Christian Website:

This phrase highlights the limitations Jesus faced in His hometown of Nazareth due to the unbelief of the people. The context is crucial here; Jesus had returned to Nazareth, where He was well-known, and the familiarity of the people with His earthly family led to skepticism about His divine authority. This reflects a broader biblical theme where faith is often a prerequisite for experiencing God's power (Matthew 13:58). The phrase does not imply a lack of power on Jesus' part but rather a lack of receptivity among the people. This situation is reminiscent of the Old Testament prophets who were often rejected by their own people (Jeremiah 11:21).

********************

Jesus doesn't do miracles for himself. They are for us. The statement about a lack of power......is not totally correct. Jesus is limited by their unbelief. Otherwise, he would have done what he could. There is no choosing on his part as that would mean he is ambiguous and that isn't the case. He will do all he can to grow and deepen our faith in him. If it isn't right to do them, it means he can't do them and stay consistent. This isn't about his control of the cosmos. It's about his consistency as a god.

 

[SweetSue92]

This is from a Christian Website:

This phrase highlights the limitations Jesus faced in His hometown of Nazareth due to the unbelief of the people. The context is crucial here; Jesus had returned to Nazareth, where He was well-known, and the familiarity of the people with His earthly family led to skepticism about His divine authority. This reflects a broader biblical theme where faith is often a prerequisite for experiencing God's power (Matthew 13:58). The phrase does not imply a lack of power on Jesus' part but rather a lack of receptivity among the people. This situation is reminiscent of the Old Testament prophets who were often rejected by their own people (Jeremiah 11:21).

********************

Jesus doesn't do miracles for himself. They are for us. The statement about a lack of power......is not totally correct. Jesus is limited by their unbelief. Otherwise, he would have done what he could. There is no choosing on his part as that would mean he is ambiguous and that isn't the case. He will do all he can to grow and deepen our faith in him. If it isn't right to do them, it means he can't do them and stay consistent. This isn't about his control of the cosmos. It's about his consistency as a god.

I thought you were done with this thread?

Anyway, our unbelief in no way limits what Jesus CAN do. It's what He will do, now. Because it's not the end yet.