Zone1 Beauty Culture and Works-Based Religions: Mormons and Amish

[HikerGuy83]

Again.

You will only be saved by Jesus "after everything you can do". (Nephi 25:23)

Which is true.

Even the New Testament teaches it.

You can either quit hiding and explain how Matthew 25 condemns groups in all 3 parables (for not being prepared, for not accepting the gift, for not caring for the poor and sullen of the earth) or you can keep spitting out these claims with no context hiding behind a weak and scattered doctrine that not all Christians agree upon.

What's it going to be?

 

[HikerGuy83]

You have a limited Christ; I do not. He wasn't "limited" by their lack of belief; they didn't believe, and were therefore mocking Him--in word, deed, or spirit.

Then you deny the very scriptures you seem to claim as authority for your strange and changing claims.

It says he "could do no might work". Why.....

because of their unbelief.

Easy peasy.

And again: the God you posit does not WANT to do certain things, but MUST due to the decisions of man. Your God is beholden to the whims and fancies of fallen man.

That has never been stated.

What has been said is that it is clear that God would love to save all men. He loves them. He sent his only begotten to die for them. He offers the gift. If they do not accept it, they cannot be saved.

John 3:3 states that if many is not born again, he cannot be saved. Seems like the Savior is calling out the limitation.

God is beholden to the law of Justice. Not man. Man is beholden to the law of Justice.

In the Matthew 25 parables, some people are sent to outer darkness....by God. Did he chose (meaning he could have just as easily save them) to send them or did justice demand it. You won't answer.

If he chose to send them when he could have saved them, why is that? Why would the Eternal Father do that to his children.

You've been asked repeatedly to stop hiding in the shadows and answer that simple question.

 

[HikerGuy83]

That's not my God.

Then you have a false god.

See: Romans 9:22--some will not be saved, for reasons the Sovereign God understands. A hard teaching, but one in which God is still God.

I don't know where that reading came from.

From the KJV

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God has power......

22: states that he could shew his wrath, but loves his children and endures with longsuffering those fitted (by themselves through their choices) to destruction.

He stayed the destroying angels as long as he could during the time of Noah. We know this from the Ethiopian Bible. But, the time came where justice could no longer be held off and the flood came. He openly wept in front of Enoch.

 

[HikerGuy83]

A symbol of who they are and what they stand for is not "works-based" faith. The Amish have not forgotten that modesty is a virtue, and dress appropriately. They value the privacy of the body.

Take up your cross and follow me is a central Gospel teaching. Just would no one object to it as a "works-based" faith, neither are the examples above "work-based."

These observations are a good starting point. Especially in a thread by someone seeking to judge others from a postion of "If it's not in the bible .....it ain't".

When the entire Bible is a collection of writings over the years as God spoke to prophets and they were recorded.

One of those teachings was about judgement and being clear on yourself first.

The "works-based" faith is still not something that is clear to me.

What is your definition of that?

 

[Meriweather]

These observations are a good starting point. Especially in a thread by someone seeking to judge others from a postion of "If it's not in the bible .....it ain't".

When the entire Bible is a collection of writings over the years as God spoke to prophets and they were recorded.

One of those teachings was about judgement and being clear on yourself first.

The "works-based" faith is still not something that is clear to me.

What is your definition of that?

"Works-based" faith never made sense to me, perhaps especially as a child. As a child (in a family of ten) we all had chores. No one was bemoaning over us "poor kids" because it was felt we had to work in order to belong to our family. We were already family, and family involved work within the family. Same way with faith. We belong to God's Kingdom, the Way of Christ and so, in already belonging, we do the work of the Kingdom and do the works we are called to undertake along on The Way. It is understood, upon entering into The Way, we are then to take up our crosses and follow Jesus and the ways of Jesus. Jesus worked/works among the people, doing the Father's business.

This Way is eternal. It is within the reach of everyone on Earth to enter into The Way during this life and it extends into eternity. No work required for entry, but plenty to do along the Way.

Jesus' works for the Kingdom of God brought blessings to the world. May our own works, at the very least, bring blessings into the life around us. Again, we don't work to enter the Kingdom. We do Kingdom work because we already belong.

 

[HikerGuy83]

"Works-based" faith never made sense to me, perhaps especially as a child. As a child (in a family of ten) we all had chores. No one was bemoaning over us "poor kids" because it was felt we had to work in order to belong to our family. We were already family, and family involved work within the family. Same way with faith. We belong to God's Kingdom, the Way of Christ and so, in already belonging, we do the work of the Kingdom and do the works we are called to undertake along on The Way. It is understood, upon entering into The Way, we are then to take up our crosses and follow Jesus and the ways of Jesus. Jesus worked/works among the people, doing the Father's business.

This Way is eternal. It is within the reach of everyone on Earth to enter into The Way during this life and it extends into eternity. No work required for entry, but plenty to do along the Way.

Jesus' works for the Kingdom of God brought blessings to the world. May our own works, at the very least, bring blessings into the life around us. Again, we don't work to enter the Kingdom. We do Kingdom work because we already belong.

Thank you for the reply and taking the time to explain your position. It is still a little unclear to me just what you think works-based faith is.

I have questions for you to help me better understand.

But they are going to sound legalistic....

Do "works based" faith ignore or not require the Atonement of Jesus Christ?

Is the idea of "works based" faith something where you show up at the judgement bar with letters of recommendation and say "Look at all the good things I've done" expecting to be admitted to heaven? It's really important that this one get cleared up.....at least for my part....because I still don't know if that is the case.

Now, I get a little picky.......

Isn't "Entering the way".....a work? I have other questions, but they might sound a bit to over the top.

Again, I am curious as to what other people think (well, not the OP anymore....for reasons I've spelled out).

 

[Meriweather]

Thank you for the reply and taking the time to explain your position. It is still a little unclear to me just what you think works-based faith is.

I have questions for you to help me better understand.

But they are going to sound legalistic....

Do "works based" faith ignore or not require the Atonement of Jesus Christ?

From childhood, I decided/concluded there is no such thing as "works-based" faith any more than there is such a thing as "works-based" waking up. No one has to work to wake up (sometimes 'work' to stay awake, but not to wake up). One either wakes up or doesn't. One either has faith or one doesn't.

Is the idea of "works based" faith something where you show up at the judgement bar with letters of recommendation and say "Look at all the good things I've done" expecting to be admitted to heaven? It's really important that this one get cleared up.....at least for my part....because I still don't know if that is the case.

Now, I get a little picky.......

Isn't "Entering the way".....a work? I have other questions, but they might sound a bit to over the top.

Jesus has already given the answer (Luke 17:10) to anyone who shows up with lists and recommendations. We are merely unworthy servants and have only done what was required/expected of us.

I recommend Robert Frost's The Road Not Taken. Robert Frost noted he chose the road less traveled. Was that choice a work? If so, wouldn't it have also been a work to have chosen the more traveled road?

 

[HikerGuy83]

From childhood, I decided/concluded there is no such thing as "works-based" faith any more than there is such a thing as "works-based" waking up. No one has to work to wake up (sometimes 'work' to stay awake, but not to wake up). One either wakes up or doesn't.

Forgive me, but this doesn't help me.

What is a "works-based" faith?

Does a "works-based" faith ignore the Savior (i.e. not need him)?

Is working your way to heaven mean you show up with all those letters of recommendation and expect admittance into God's presence based on what they've done....alone?

One either has faith or one doesn't.

O.K. Again, more questions.

1. Can someone didn't have faith...then get faith?
2. If the answer is yes, what is different in them.
3. If there is a difference, is this the only explanation for the change? Can it be something else?

Thanks for your patience.

And what does it mean to "have faith"?

Can you have faith and gain more faith (that seems the case)? Why would you need more if you have "enough"? And how much is enough?

I know this is being picky but this is the trouble I have with this discussion.

And maybe you should not answer this part of my post.

I think getting clear on what a works based faith is....is necessary to have these other convesations.

The term works based faith was used by the OP. What does that mean?

Let's get clear on that.

 

[Meriweather]

Forgive me, but this doesn't help me.

What is a "works-based" faith?

Does a "works-based" faith ignore the Savior (i.e. not need him)?

Is working your way to heaven mean you show up with all those letters of recommendation and expect admittance into God's presence based on what they've done....alone?

What you are not getting is that (for me, at least) there is no such thing as "work-based" faith. It doesn't exist, any more than fairies exist. Perhaps you can tell me of how you see its existence in your own life?

 

[HikerGuy83]

What you are not getting is that (for me, at least) there is no such thing as "work-based" faith. It doesn't exist, any more than fairies exist. Perhaps you can tell me of how you see its existence in your own life?

The OP calls out two groups as works based faith. I happen to belong to one of those groups.

I am trying to understand what it is.

This is why I asked about the parables in Matthew 25.

People are being cast out based on their lack of works/effort. That is what I read.

 

[Meriweather]

O.K. Again, more questions.

1. Can someone didn't have faith...then get faith?
2. If the answer is yes, what is different in them.
3. If there is a difference, is this the only explanation for the change? Can it be something else?

Based on what I know from atheist family members (from my grandfather through to my husband). It is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of belief. They find it impossible to believe in the concept of God, no matter how God is depicted as acting. It's a matter of not being able to believe in the concept.

To me, these are the true atheists, not the atheists who can present numerous reasons why they don't believe because of all the things they think God did, or all the things they say God has not done. They have reasons, and can come up with a million more. My grandfather, you might say, was surrounded by people who did believe, and he did not think people who believed were simply imagining God. They 'saw' something or 'had' something that believing was as natural as breathing. It was real. He understood that. He didn't know why he didn't believe, he just knew that he didn't. My own husband is much the same. He says if he is standing before God his question would be, "Why couldn't I believe?" He feels his own offering would be, he couldn't pretend--he could at least offer God that much....no pretense.

Faith: One can live by faith that doing the right thing is best, it brings better results, a better life. There have been times my husband and his (atheist) brother have been in the midst of a family problem where they came to me, admitted they were at a complete and total loss, and could I help them through prayer. Through prayer came insights, which I related to them of what they should try. They both looked at me in disbelief, and frankly told me if that was the best that came through prayer, why bother. However, as they were already at rock bottom (perhaps underneath rock bottom) they gave that prayerful solution a try. It worked and worked well. Of course, in the next minute they were saying it came through my own wisdom, they should have thought of it themselves, no God involved.

All this to say my answer is, "I don't know." My experience is that belief and faith are tied together.

 

[Meriweather]

The OP calls out two groups as works based faith. I happen to belong to one of those groups.

I am trying to understand what it is.

This is why I asked about the parables in Matthew 25.

People are being cast out based on their lack of works/effort. That is what I read.

We may need a good Lutheran to explain this to us. What I remember from school is that Martin Luther felt he needed to work in order to get to heaven.

My confusion (as a child and even now) is that no one has to work to get into their family, and I grew up knowing with my baptism (as a baby) I was being brought up in the family of God. We belonged to the Kingdom of God, and that meant instead of being brought up in worldly ways, being brought up in spiritual ways, the Way of God, the Way of Christ. While Martin Luther felt he had to work or pass some kind of test to get into the family of God, I was brought up knowing I was already in the family of God.

To me, the parables are not so much about people being cast out, they are about those who come together and those who remain apart. I take the parables to heart, not because I am afraid of being cast out, but by what I miss by not joining in. Being about ninety-five percent hermit (even in a family of ten), Matthew's parables taught me a lot about (through my own actions) missing out, not about being cast out.

 

[HikerGuy83]

We may need a good Lutheran to explain this to us. What I remember from school is that Martin Luther felt he needed to work in order to get to heaven.

My confusion (as a child and even now) is that no one has to work to get into their family, and I grew up knowing with my baptism (as a baby) I was being brought up in the family of God. We belonged to the Kingdom of God, and that meant instead of being brought up in worldly ways, being brought up in spiritual ways, the Way of God, the Way of Christ. While Martin Luther felt he had to work or pass some kind of test to get into the family of God, I was brought up knowing I was already in the family of God.

To me, the parables are not so much about people being cast out, they are about those who come together and those who remain apart. I take the parables to heart, not because I am afraid of being cast out, but by what I miss by not joining in. Being about ninety-five percent hermit (even in a family of ten), Matthew's parables taught me a lot about (through my own actions) missing out, not about being cast out.

Thank you for this.

Your last paragraph is very interesting.

That really is faith.

I recall teaching my children that there were three motivations for choosing to do good:

1. Fear
2. Duty
3. Love

My experience had been and has been that this is an ascendancy. Meaning you progress from one to the next to the next.

Relative to what we are discussing, I would see this as an increase in faith.

It sounds like you quickly got past any fear (of consequences) and were really more interested in the attraction of doing well (belonging, pleasing God, Love of fellowman).

In my own life, it has been my experience that I take a leap of faith....to do something such as serve others....for fear of conseuences...at least initially. As I engage in that service, my heart is transformed to the succeeding stage and I feel more ownership and committment. Duty describes it. As I continue, my heart continues to change to love.

Those transformations can't happen without the Atonement of Christ. It is all that he did for us. We accept that, as a gift, by applying it in our lives.

As one of our leaders stated (I put this in an earlier post): The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

In other words, you don't show up and say...this is what I did.

Instead, you are simply what you are as transformed through the doctrines of Christ. Not so much knowledge, but fundamental character changes.

 

[Meriweather]

In other words, you don't show up and say...this is what I did.

Exactly! You show up as who you are.

 

[Cougarbear]

You may not think "Utah Curls", pictured below on the case of "Secret Lives of Mormon Wives", and Amish dress have much in common. But they do, strangely. Both religions are an offshoot of works-based faiths.

A works-based Christian faith might not expressly state that the way to God is to "be good", but they operate that way. "Utah curls" signals that you are an attractive wife and mother, with her husband, home and children in such good care that she can afford to maintain expensive hair extensions. Meanwhile, the modest Amish woman of the same age is careful to put her clothes on correctly, including tucking her long hair into a cap. Both are outward signs that the woman is "good".

Taking this approach undermines the very heart of Christianity, which asserts that there is NOTHING you can do to earn your way to God--He did it, He earned the way, because He's the only one who could.

The world loves all kinds of "religious signs" though, which has been the mark of the "religious" since the beginning.....

View attachment 1232185

Utah Hair is Ultra-Long, Smoothly Curled and Lighting up FYPs. Let's Take a Closer Look

Exemplified by The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, these curls are a fascinating portal into a very specific way of life

thekit.ca

View attachment 1232186

Faith without works is dead. That is from an original apostle of Jesus Christ…

 

[HikerGuy83]

Faith without works is dead. That is from an original apostle of Jesus Christ…

You can't even get a good definition of "works-based" from anyone.

And using the TV program mentioned in the OP is beyond bizarre.

 

[Cougarbear]

You can't even get a good definition of "works-based" from anyone.

And using the TV program mentioned in the OP is beyond bizarre.

I didn't watch the program. I don't need that. Faith without works is dead. Any effort to help others and yourself to strengthen faith moving towards the goal of Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ are righteous works. And, the purpose and goals of the Godhead are to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. Any effort or ordinance that does this is righteous works.

 

[HikerGuy83]

What you are not getting is that (for me, at least) there is no such thing as "work-based" faith. It doesn't exist, any more than fairies exist. Perhaps you can tell me of how you see its existence in your own life?

If you can identify that it does not exist, then you can tell me what it is (or what people mean when they say it).

That's what I am looking for.

 

[Meriweather]

If you can identify that it does not exist, then you can tell me what it is (or what people mean when they say it).

That's what I am looking for.

I go back to the source, who is Martin Luther. Apparently he had a very strict father, who kept him busy with chores and what he did was never good enough. He felt he had to earn his place in his family, perhaps even earn his father's love, possibly?

This followed Martin Luther into the Church, where he seemed to think he had to work to stay in the family of God instead of realizing that the family of God is where he belonged, a place where the Body of Christ works/serves together with love.

 

[Hafar1014]

A symbol of who they are and what they stand for is not "works-based" faith. The Amish have not forgotten that modesty is a virtue, and dress appropriately. They value the privacy of the body.

Take up your cross and follow me is a central Gospel teaching. Just would no one object to it as a "works-based" faith, neither are the examples above "work-based."

You dont know much about the Amish. Living in Pa I have worked with them. They do regard women as subservient. They are also honest hard working people. You can trust and depend on them for anything. They do have serious problem with inbreeding and congenital problems with their children. They dont have the mental health resources so they depend on other counties as a resource. They called me in because they were considering adoption as solution to bring in fresh blood. Ill all for it as long as they cant adopt a female.