More Christians are conservative meanwhile Christ was liberal...

[Taz]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

 

[PostmodernProph]

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity.

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

If the choices are to obey god or else be burnt to death, that's not a free will choice. Only an imbecile would argue that. Or someone who doesn't understand the concept of free will. Which is it?

well to be fair, you will be dead BEFORE you burn, but in any event you have in fact chosen that option.....now, what were you saying about imbeciles?......

So it's obey god or your soul will burn forever in Hell. That's not a choice of free will. Even YOU can figure that out for yourself.

are you arguing you are exempt?......because you've chosen to "burn forever in Hell", right?.......were you free to do that?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

????.....we all know nobody pushed you to reject God........if anything it amazes us that you used your free will to choose jumping off the cliff when all you had to do was acknowledge his existence and accept his gift.......but no, you had to choose jumping........

 

[Avatar4321]

do you believe, apart from God incarnate, that any human being has been completely obedient to God?.....

---
How do you know about any god, or that which is supernatural (not material)?

Through the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit

---
Have you communicated with God or the Holy Spirit?

How can anyone know God if they don't communicate with Him?

The Holy Ghost teaches us the truth of all things. No man can learn the truth that Jesus is the Christ and our redeemed except by the power of the Holy Ghost revealing it. There is a reason that the scriptures teach us that the Spirit of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have received a testimony of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Jesus is who He claimed to be. Because of this testimony I've learned to apply the atonement in my life. It's strengthened me, healed me, stretched me and filled me with joy and love that surpasses understanding.

And I am nothing special. The Lord will reveal Himself to all those that sincerely seek Him. You don't have to take my word for it. You can experiment on the Word for yourself.

Two quotes on the matter I was just reading from Brigham Young:

"Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God for themselves and become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his Father. They were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Jesus Christ, and see eye to eye"

And

"If we draw near to him, he will draw near to us; if we seek him early, we shall find him; if we apply our minds faithfully and diligently day by day, to know and understand the mind and will of God, it is as easy as, yes, I will say easier than it is to know the minds of each other "

Come and enjoy the fruits of the gospel for yourself. You can hear and feel the voice of the Lord.

---
I asked you a simple question.
In response, you recite the gospel.
You implied that you believe the Holy Spirit communicated with you.

Was that communication one way, or did you have a conversation with that Holy Spirit?
When was the last time you two communicated?
Were you awake then, or were you dreaming?

I implied nothing. I've spoken outright and invited you to learn the same way. I talk with my Heavenly Father all the time. I encourage you to do the same.

 

[Avatar4321]

Except it is. Because you can choose either way.

You must be unclear on the concept of free will. It's not free will to say that if you don't do what I say, I'll shoot you dead. Don't be an ass.

I understand free will quite well. Which is why I know that free will is impossible unless our actions have consequences.

I understand why you dont like the fact that there are consequences for your actions. You are afraid to face them. But you don't have to be. Jesus Christ suffered for your sins and you can have a clean slate because of Him and choose the good instead.

You are free to choose eternal life and liberty or captivity and death. The power is yours and you have no person to blame but yourself if you choose the bad.

I understand about the consequences, although lots of things we choose to do in life don't have any consequences. But that said, during WWII, guards at death camps had a choice, either obey the commands or get gassed themselves. That is not a free will choice, they had no choice but to obey because it's instinctual that humans try to find a way to live and not die on purpose (which i gather is also a sin). To paraphrase, God is saying : obey me or I'll kill you. Sorry, but there is simply no choice given in this scenario.

Are you seriously arguing that the Nazis had no choice but to murder Jews?

Is it mormonism that makes you unable to grasp a simple idea? Nazi GUARDS at death camps had no choice but to obey orders otherwise they'd be killed themselves,. That's not free choice, just like your god who says obey me or else you die burning in Hell forever. That also isn't a free choice.

You keep saying that but its not going to make it true. Km sure you'd love to believe you aren't accountable and responsible for what you do, but you are. And until you stop lying to yourself you will never learn wisdom.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm not calling you a name. I'm using a word to describe how you act. And if you are a all serious about what you are saying there you've just reinforced the point.

A fool is someone who believes in golden plates and magic underwear. Now you know.

No a fool is someone who mocks something he hasn't bothered to learn about and makes absurd arguments that somehow your free will is non existent if you have consequences to your choices.

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice. Even YOU should know that.
Btw, I know plenty about mormonism, just because I mock it doesn't mean I haven't bothered to learn about it. I have bothered to learn about it and it's a laughable religion at every turn. Kinda like a skit on SNL.

You know so much about Mormonism that you are invoking John Smith.

Tell me. Which part of the Book of Mormon do you like the most? Which part do you disagree with? Can you name the doctrine of Christ? Who was burned at the stake for testifying of the redemption of Jesus Christ? When did Christ appear to the people? How are we taught to judge? Can you answer any of those things?

I tried reading the mormon book of bullshit but got hung up on all those stories of people which made no sense at all. Just made up stuff with no proof whatsoever.

In other words, you lied when you claimed to know all about Mormons because you can't be bothered to read and understand simple English.


Cause both of your claims can't be true. You either know all about Mormonism or you can't be bothered to apply yourself to study the matter. They are rather mutually exclusive

 

[Avatar4321]

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity.

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

If the choices are to obey god or else be burnt to death, that's not a free will choice. Only an imbecile would argue that. Or someone who doesn't understand the concept of free will. Which is it?

well to be fair, you will be dead BEFORE you burn, but in any event you have in fact chosen that option.....now, what were you saying about imbeciles?......

So it's obey god or your soul will burn forever in Hell. That's not a choice of free will. Even YOU can figure that out for yourself.

Its actually more, accept the gift God has provided by following Him or be held accountable for your actions

 

[Avatar4321]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

????.....we all know nobody pushed you to reject God........if anything it amazes us that you used your free will to choose jumping off the cliff when all you had to do was acknowledge his existence and accept his gift.......but no, you had to choose jumping........

He has decided he isn't responsible for what he chooses to do. But hasn't realized you can't avoid responsibility. There are always consequences to our actions.

 

[Avatar4321]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

????.....we all know nobody pushed you to reject God........if anything it amazes us that you used your free will to choose jumping off the cliff when all you had to do was acknowledge his existence and accept his gift.......but no, you had to choose jumping........

He has decided he isn't responsible for what he chooses to do. But hasn't realized you can't avoid responsibility. There are always consequences to our actions.

 

[Avatar4321]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

????.....we all know nobody pushed you to reject God........if anything it amazes us that you used your free will to choose jumping off the cliff when all you had to do was acknowledge his existence and accept his gift.......but no, you had to choose jumping........

He has decided he isn't responsible for what he chooses to do. But hasn't realized you can't avoid responsibility. There are always consequences to our actions.

 

[Avatar4321]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

????.....we all know nobody pushed you to reject God........if anything it amazes us that you used your free will to choose jumping off the cliff when all you had to do was acknowledge his existence and accept his gift.......but no, you had to choose jumping........

He has decided he isn't responsible for what he chooses to do. But hasn't realized you can't avoid responsibility. There are always consequences to our actions.

 

[Taz]

Geez you guys aren't very swift. To say: choose me or I'll shoot you isn't a free choice, it's a threat. Do you get that?

 

[Taz]

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity.

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

If the choices are to obey god or else be burnt to death, that's not a free will choice. Only an imbecile would argue that. Or someone who doesn't understand the concept of free will. Which is it?

well to be fair, you will be dead BEFORE you burn, but in any event you have in fact chosen that option.....now, what were you saying about imbeciles?......

So it's obey god or your soul will burn forever in Hell. That's not a choice of free will. Even YOU can figure that out for yourself.

Its actually more, accept the gift God has provided by following Him or be held accountable for your actions

So basically, follow your god or he'll punish you forever. That's not a free choice your god gives you, that's no choice at all. Get it?

 

[Taz]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

????.....we all know nobody pushed you to reject God........if anything it amazes us that you used your free will to choose jumping off the cliff when all you had to do was acknowledge his existence and accept his gift.......but no, you had to choose jumping........

No, what I said was: if I don't accept your god, HE pushes me off a cliff. That's not a choice I have, that's a threat your god is aiming at me.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Geez you guys aren't very swift. To say: choose me or I'll shoot you isn't a free choice, it's a threat. Do you get that?

I get that this isn't what is happening......do you get what is really happening?.......you were given a choice to get shot or not and you chose to get shot.......what else is there to know?.........

 

[PostmodernProph]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

OK, my mistake, you get to obey god or HE pushes you off the cliff! Tell me again how that's a free choice?

????.....we all know nobody pushed you to reject God........if anything it amazes us that you used your free will to choose jumping off the cliff when all you had to do was acknowledge his existence and accept his gift.......but no, you had to choose jumping........

No, what I said was: if I don't accept your god, HE pushes me off a cliff. That's not a choice I have, that's a threat your god is aiming at me.

I know that's what you said.......however it isn't true and we have shown you that every time you repeat it.......if you repeat it again we can show you that you are wrong again.......how many times do you want to do that?........you say its not a choice because the consequences are bad......yet, you chose the bad consequences freely, proving it can be done......

 

[PK1]

Why do you believe in Christianity according to the KJB?

actually I prefer the NIV......why I believe has nothing to do with the thread or our discussion.......are you running away from your claims?.....why change topics?......

---
I am not the one making supernatural claims. You are ... about the validity of Christian dogma based on a book version (NIV in your case) with unverified sources.

Your belief has everything to do about the thread's topic, and how you interpret its meaning to formulate an answer.

My contention is we don't know the real Historical Jesus Christ very well, and can only select preferred information and interpret it based on our cultural & personal preferences.

 

[koshergrl]

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

If the choices are to obey god or else be burnt to death, that's not a free will choice. Only an imbecile would argue that. Or someone who doesn't understand the concept of free will. Which is it?

well to be fair, you will be dead BEFORE you burn, but in any event you have in fact chosen that option.....now, what were you saying about imbeciles?......

So it's obey god or your soul will burn forever in Hell. That's not a choice of free will. Even YOU can figure that out for yourself.

Its actually more, accept the gift God has provided by following Him or be held accountable for your actions

So basically, follow your god or he'll punish you forever. That's not a free choice your god gives you, that's no choice at all. Get it?

Sure it is. Because you can choose to reject it and spend your days in hell. Lots of people do that.

Just like lots of people choose to be criminals, and end up in jail. Same thing. It's known as "judgement". It happens. You are free to make the wrong choice. Go for it. But you are going to be judged by your choices. Get over it.

 

[PK1]

---
How do you know about any god, or that which is supernatural (not material)?

Through the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit

---
Have you communicated with God or the Holy Spirit?

How can anyone know God if they don't communicate with Him?

The Holy Ghost teaches us the truth of all things. No man can learn the truth that Jesus is the Christ and our redeemed except by the power of the Holy Ghost revealing it. There is a reason that the scriptures teach us that the Spirit of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have received a testimony of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Jesus is who He claimed to be. Because of this testimony I've learned to apply the atonement in my life. It's strengthened me, healed me, stretched me and filled me with joy and love that surpasses understanding.

And I am nothing special. The Lord will reveal Himself to all those that sincerely seek Him. You don't have to take my word for it. You can experiment on the Word for yourself.

Two quotes on the matter I was just reading from Brigham Young:

"Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God for themselves and become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his Father. They were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Jesus Christ, and see eye to eye"

And

"If we draw near to him, he will draw near to us; if we seek him early, we shall find him; if we apply our minds faithfully and diligently day by day, to know and understand the mind and will of God, it is as easy as, yes, I will say easier than it is to know the minds of each other "

Come and enjoy the fruits of the gospel for yourself. You can hear and feel the voice of the Lord.

---
I asked you a simple question.
In response, you recite the gospel.
You implied that you believe the Holy Spirit communicated with you.

Was that communication one way, or did you have a conversation with that Holy Spirit?
When was the last time you two communicated?
Were you awake then, or were you dreaming?

I implied nothing. I've spoken outright and invited you to learn the same way. I talk with my Heavenly Father all the time. I encourage you to do the same.

---
How do you "talk" with your "Heavenly Father"?
Within your mind when you are awake?
How do you know you are not imagining those conversations?

 

[koshergrl]

Through the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit

---
Have you communicated with God or the Holy Spirit?

How can anyone know God if they don't communicate with Him?

The Holy Ghost teaches us the truth of all things. No man can learn the truth that Jesus is the Christ and our redeemed except by the power of the Holy Ghost revealing it. There is a reason that the scriptures teach us that the Spirit of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have received a testimony of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Jesus is who He claimed to be. Because of this testimony I've learned to apply the atonement in my life. It's strengthened me, healed me, stretched me and filled me with joy and love that surpasses understanding.

And I am nothing special. The Lord will reveal Himself to all those that sincerely seek Him. You don't have to take my word for it. You can experiment on the Word for yourself.

Two quotes on the matter I was just reading from Brigham Young:

"Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God for themselves and become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his Father. They were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Jesus Christ, and see eye to eye"

And

"If we draw near to him, he will draw near to us; if we seek him early, we shall find him; if we apply our minds faithfully and diligently day by day, to know and understand the mind and will of God, it is as easy as, yes, I will say easier than it is to know the minds of each other "

Come and enjoy the fruits of the gospel for yourself. You can hear and feel the voice of the Lord.

---
I asked you a simple question.
In response, you recite the gospel.
You implied that you believe the Holy Spirit communicated with you.

Was that communication one way, or did you have a conversation with that Holy Spirit?
When was the last time you two communicated?
Were you awake then, or were you dreaming?

I implied nothing. I've spoken outright and invited you to learn the same way. I talk with my Heavenly Father all the time. I encourage you to do the same.

---
How do you "talk" with your "Heavenly Father"?
Within your mind when you are awake?
How do you know you are not imagining those conversations?

You should try it and find out.