More Christians are conservative meanwhile Christ was liberal...

[PostmodernProph]

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity.

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

 

[Avatar4321]

do you believe, apart from God incarnate, that any human being has been completely obedient to God?.....

Yes, me.

well, you just lied..there goes your faultless record......

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

You just contradicted yourself. Free will allows us to make choices and face the consequences of our choices. The fact that you make choices that have bad consequences doesn't mean you aren't free to choose.

If I choose to walk out onto a busy highway I didn't have my free will taken from me merely because I get hit by a truck.

If I choose to drink I haven't lost my free will because i have a hang over the next day.

Our choices determine our destiny. Our choices would be meaningless without consequences.

You're comparing burning for all eternity in Hell to a hangover? EPIC FAIL. Please try again.

And you wonder why people think you act foolish.

 

[Avatar4321]

????....stooping?......that is very helpful advice......if you didn't despise wisdom and instruction you would have realized that......

The bible advising you on how to treat people as fools? How nice. Was the bible written by a 9 year old?

Stop acting like a fool and people wont treat you as one.

It's better to remain silent and look like a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Wow! You bible people sure do like to call people names. Is that what Jesus did? Or just John Smith?

I'm not calling you a name. I'm using a word to describe how you act. And if you are a all serious about what you are saying there you've just reinforced the point.

A fool is someone who believes in golden plates and magic underwear. Now you know.

No a fool is someone who mocks something he hasn't bothered to learn about and makes absurd arguments that somehow your free will is non existent if you have consequences to your choices.

 

[Taz]

The bible advising you on how to treat people as fools? How nice. Was the bible written by a 9 year old?

Stop acting like a fool and people wont treat you as one.

It's better to remain silent and look like a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Wow! You bible people sure do like to call people names. Is that what Jesus did? Or just John Smith?

I'm not calling you a name. I'm using a word to describe how you act. And if you are a all serious about what you are saying there you've just reinforced the point.

A fool is someone who believes in golden plates and magic underwear. Now you know.

No a fool is someone who mocks something he hasn't bothered to learn about and makes absurd arguments that somehow your free will is non existent if you have consequences to your choices.

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice. Even YOU should know that.
Btw, I know plenty about mormonism, just because I mock it doesn't mean I haven't bothered to learn about it. I have bothered to learn about it and it's a laughable religion at every turn. Kinda like a skit on SNL.

 

[Taz]

Yes, me.

well, you just lied..there goes your faultless record......

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

You just contradicted yourself. Free will allows us to make choices and face the consequences of our choices. The fact that you make choices that have bad consequences doesn't mean you aren't free to choose.

If I choose to walk out onto a busy highway I didn't have my free will taken from me merely because I get hit by a truck.

If I choose to drink I haven't lost my free will because i have a hang over the next day.

Our choices determine our destiny. Our choices would be meaningless without consequences.

You're comparing burning for all eternity in Hell to a hangover? EPIC FAIL. Please try again.

And you wonder why people think you act foolish.

Hey, I'm not the one who compared burning in Hell to a hangover, that would be you. DOUBLE EPIC FAIL!

 

[Taz]

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity.

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

If the choices are to obey god or else be burnt to death, that's not a free will choice. Only an imbecile would argue that. Or someone who doesn't understand the concept of free will. Which is it?

 

[Taz]

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity. It's like saying you have free will to disobey me but if you do disobey, I'll shoot you dead. That's not free will no matter how you try to spin it.

Except it is. Because you can choose either way.

You must be unclear on the concept of free will. It's not free will to say that if you don't do what I say, I'll shoot you dead. Don't be an ass.

I understand free will quite well. Which is why I know that free will is impossible unless our actions have consequences.

I understand why you dont like the fact that there are consequences for your actions. You are afraid to face them. But you don't have to be. Jesus Christ suffered for your sins and you can have a clean slate because of Him and choose the good instead.

You are free to choose eternal life and liberty or captivity and death. The power is yours and you have no person to blame but yourself if you choose the bad.

I understand about the consequences, although lots of things we choose to do in life don't have any consequences. But that said, during WWII, guards at death camps had a choice, either obey the commands or get gassed themselves. That is not a free will choice, they had no choice but to obey because it's instinctual that humans try to find a way to live and not die on purpose (which i gather is also a sin). To paraphrase, God is saying : obey me or I'll kill you. Sorry, but there is simply no choice given in this scenario.

 

[PostmodernProph]

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice .

and yet, you have chosen to jump off the cliff and die.......too bad you weren't free to make that choice.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity.

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

If the choices are to obey god or else be burnt to death, that's not a free will choice. Only an imbecile would argue that. Or someone who doesn't understand the concept of free will. Which is it?

well to be fair, you will be dead BEFORE you burn, but in any event you have in fact chosen that option.....now, what were you saying about imbeciles?......

 

[PK1]

How do you know about "the first humans"?
How about explaining "we are disobedient"?

do you believe, apart from God incarnate, that any human being has been completely obedient to God?.....

---
How do you know about any god, or that which is supernatural (not material)?

I'm sorry....I am having trouble seeing how that is responsive to the question I asked.....did you decide to begin a totally different discussion?......

---
You asked me a question about "God", and I could not relate to your reference.
In order to be responsive, I want to understand how you experience "God" and if I can share a similar experience ... in order to answer your question about obedience.

since we are discussing Christian beliefs it is logical to think in terms of what Christians believe about God......if you are not already familiar with that why do you believe you are qualified to debate Christian beliefs?.....

---
It looks like we are talking on parallel tracks.
You are regurgitating Christian beliefs, while I was/am trying to understand YOUR own experiences & subsequent beliefs related to God, not those indicated in an old book (Bible) or interpreted by one of many preachers who pretend to "know".

Why do you believe in Christianity according to the KJB?
My bet is based on simple social psychology principles.
In contrast, I take a philosophy approach related to epistemology concepts.

 

[PK1]

How do you know about "the first humans"?
How about explaining "we are disobedient"?

do you believe, apart from God incarnate, that any human being has been completely obedient to God?.....

---
How do you know about any god, or that which is supernatural (not material)?

Through the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit

---
Have you communicated with God or the Holy Spirit?

 

[Avatar4321]

Stop acting like a fool and people wont treat you as one.

It's better to remain silent and look like a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Wow! You bible people sure do like to call people names. Is that what Jesus did? Or just John Smith?

I'm not calling you a name. I'm using a word to describe how you act. And if you are a all serious about what you are saying there you've just reinforced the point.

A fool is someone who believes in golden plates and magic underwear. Now you know.

No a fool is someone who mocks something he hasn't bothered to learn about and makes absurd arguments that somehow your free will is non existent if you have consequences to your choices.

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice. Even YOU should know that.
Btw, I know plenty about mormonism, just because I mock it doesn't mean I haven't bothered to learn about it. I have bothered to learn about it and it's a laughable religion at every turn. Kinda like a skit on SNL.

You know so much about Mormonism that you are invoking John Smith.

Tell me. Which part of the Book of Mormon do you like the most? Which part do you disagree with? Can you name the doctrine of Christ? Who was burned at the stake for testifying of the redemption of Jesus Christ? When did Christ appear to the people? How are we taught to judge? Can you answer any of those things?

 

[Avatar4321]

well, you just lied..there goes your faultless record......

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

You just contradicted yourself. Free will allows us to make choices and face the consequences of our choices. The fact that you make choices that have bad consequences doesn't mean you aren't free to choose.

If I choose to walk out onto a busy highway I didn't have my free will taken from me merely because I get hit by a truck.

If I choose to drink I haven't lost my free will because i have a hang over the next day.

Our choices determine our destiny. Our choices would be meaningless without consequences.

You're comparing burning for all eternity in Hell to a hangover? EPIC FAIL. Please try again.

And you wonder why people think you act foolish.

Hey, I'm not the one who compared burning in Hell to a hangover, that would be you. DOUBLE EPIC FAIL!

Yeah. Cause the analogy was difficult to understand.

 

[Avatar4321]

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity. It's like saying you have free will to disobey me but if you do disobey, I'll shoot you dead. That's not free will no matter how you try to spin it.

Except it is. Because you can choose either way.

You must be unclear on the concept of free will. It's not free will to say that if you don't do what I say, I'll shoot you dead. Don't be an ass.

I understand free will quite well. Which is why I know that free will is impossible unless our actions have consequences.

I understand why you dont like the fact that there are consequences for your actions. You are afraid to face them. But you don't have to be. Jesus Christ suffered for your sins and you can have a clean slate because of Him and choose the good instead.

You are free to choose eternal life and liberty or captivity and death. The power is yours and you have no person to blame but yourself if you choose the bad.

I understand about the consequences, although lots of things we choose to do in life don't have any consequences. But that said, during WWII, guards at death camps had a choice, either obey the commands or get gassed themselves. That is not a free will choice, they had no choice but to obey because it's instinctual that humans try to find a way to live and not die on purpose (which i gather is also a sin). To paraphrase, God is saying : obey me or I'll kill you. Sorry, but there is simply no choice given in this scenario.

Are you seriously arguing that the Nazis had no choice but to murder Jews?

 

[Avatar4321]

How do you know about "the first humans"?
How about explaining "we are disobedient"?

do you believe, apart from God incarnate, that any human being has been completely obedient to God?.....

---
How do you know about any god, or that which is supernatural (not material)?

Through the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit

---
Have you communicated with God or the Holy Spirit?

How can anyone know God if they don't communicate with Him?

The Holy Ghost teaches us the truth of all things. No man can learn the truth that Jesus is the Christ and our redeemed except by the power of the Holy Ghost revealing it. There is a reason that the scriptures teach us that the Spirit of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have received a testimony of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Jesus is who He claimed to be. Because of this testimony I've learned to apply the atonement in my life. It's strengthened me, healed me, stretched me and filled me with joy and love that surpasses understanding.

And I am nothing special. The Lord will reveal Himself to all those that sincerely seek Him. You don't have to take my word for it. You can experiment on the Word for yourself.

Two quotes on the matter I was just reading from Brigham Young:

"Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God for themselves and become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his Father. They were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Jesus Christ, and see eye to eye"

And

"If we draw near to him, he will draw near to us; if we seek him early, we shall find him; if we apply our minds faithfully and diligently day by day, to know and understand the mind and will of God, it is as easy as, yes, I will say easier than it is to know the minds of each other "

Come and enjoy the fruits of the gospel for yourself. You can hear and feel the voice of the Lord.

 

[PK1]

How do you know about "the first humans"?
How about explaining "we are disobedient"?

do you believe, apart from God incarnate, that any human being has been completely obedient to God?.....

---
How do you know about any god, or that which is supernatural (not material)?

Through the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit

---
Have you communicated with God or the Holy Spirit?

How can anyone know God if they don't communicate with Him?

The Holy Ghost teaches us the truth of all things. No man can learn the truth that Jesus is the Christ and our redeemed except by the power of the Holy Ghost revealing it. There is a reason that the scriptures teach us that the Spirit of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have received a testimony of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit revealed to me that Jesus is who He claimed to be. Because of this testimony I've learned to apply the atonement in my life. It's strengthened me, healed me, stretched me and filled me with joy and love that surpasses understanding.

And I am nothing special. The Lord will reveal Himself to all those that sincerely seek Him. You don't have to take my word for it. You can experiment on the Word for yourself.

Two quotes on the matter I was just reading from Brigham Young:

"Let all persons be fervent in prayer, until they know the things of God for themselves and become certain that they are walking in the path that leads to everlasting life; then will envy, the child of ignorance, vanish and there will be no disposition in any man to place himself above another; for such a feeling meets no countenance in the order of heaven. Jesus Christ never wanted to be different from his Father. They were and are one. If a people are led by the revelations of Jesus Christ, and they are cognizant of the fact through their faithfulness, there is no fear but they will be one in Jesus Christ, and see eye to eye"

And

"If we draw near to him, he will draw near to us; if we seek him early, we shall find him; if we apply our minds faithfully and diligently day by day, to know and understand the mind and will of God, it is as easy as, yes, I will say easier than it is to know the minds of each other "

Come and enjoy the fruits of the gospel for yourself. You can hear and feel the voice of the Lord.

---
I asked you a simple question.
In response, you recite the gospel.
You implied that you believe the Holy Spirit communicated with you.

Was that communication one way, or did you have a conversation with that Holy Spirit?
When was the last time you two communicated?
Were you awake then, or were you dreaming?

 

[PostmodernProph]

Why do you believe in Christianity according to the KJB?

actually I prefer the NIV......why I believe has nothing to do with the thread or our discussion.......are you running away from your claims?.....why change topics?......

 

[Taz]

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity. It's like saying you have free will to disobey me but if you do disobey, I'll shoot you dead. That's not free will no matter how you try to spin it.

Except it is. Because you can choose either way.

You must be unclear on the concept of free will. It's not free will to say that if you don't do what I say, I'll shoot you dead. Don't be an ass.

I understand free will quite well. Which is why I know that free will is impossible unless our actions have consequences.

I understand why you dont like the fact that there are consequences for your actions. You are afraid to face them. But you don't have to be. Jesus Christ suffered for your sins and you can have a clean slate because of Him and choose the good instead.

You are free to choose eternal life and liberty or captivity and death. The power is yours and you have no person to blame but yourself if you choose the bad.

I understand about the consequences, although lots of things we choose to do in life don't have any consequences. But that said, during WWII, guards at death camps had a choice, either obey the commands or get gassed themselves. That is not a free will choice, they had no choice but to obey because it's instinctual that humans try to find a way to live and not die on purpose (which i gather is also a sin). To paraphrase, God is saying : obey me or I'll kill you. Sorry, but there is simply no choice given in this scenario.

Are you seriously arguing that the Nazis had no choice but to murder Jews?

Is it mormonism that makes you unable to grasp a simple idea? Nazi GUARDS at death camps had no choice but to obey orders otherwise they'd be killed themselves,. That's not free choice, just like your god who says obey me or else you die burning in Hell forever. That also isn't a free choice.

 

[Taz]

Wow! You bible people sure do like to call people names. Is that what Jesus did? Or just John Smith?

I'm not calling you a name. I'm using a word to describe how you act. And if you are a all serious about what you are saying there you've just reinforced the point.

A fool is someone who believes in golden plates and magic underwear. Now you know.

No a fool is someone who mocks something he hasn't bothered to learn about and makes absurd arguments that somehow your free will is non existent if you have consequences to your choices.

You have a choice to obey god or jump off a cliff and die. That's not free choice. Even YOU should know that.
Btw, I know plenty about mormonism, just because I mock it doesn't mean I haven't bothered to learn about it. I have bothered to learn about it and it's a laughable religion at every turn. Kinda like a skit on SNL.

You know so much about Mormonism that you are invoking John Smith.

Tell me. Which part of the Book of Mormon do you like the most? Which part do you disagree with? Can you name the doctrine of Christ? Who was burned at the stake for testifying of the redemption of Jesus Christ? When did Christ appear to the people? How are we taught to judge? Can you answer any of those things?

I tried reading the mormon book of bullshit but got hung up on all those stories of people which made no sense at all. Just made up stuff with no proof whatsoever.

 

[Taz]

God lied too, he said that we have free will, but if we don't do certain things, he won't let us into heaven. So he lied, we don't have free will. So I'm just like god.

an obvious absurdity.....the free will we discuss is the choice about whether or not you do what is required to go to heaven........if you choose not to do so it does not mean you don't have the power to choose......

So you really have no free will, because if you don't obey you go to hell to burn for all eternity.

how can you argue that when it is in fact what you have freely chosen?......

If the choices are to obey god or else be burnt to death, that's not a free will choice. Only an imbecile would argue that. Or someone who doesn't understand the concept of free will. Which is it?

well to be fair, you will be dead BEFORE you burn, but in any event you have in fact chosen that option.....now, what were you saying about imbeciles?......

So it's obey god or your soul will burn forever in Hell. That's not a choice of free will. Even YOU can figure that out for yourself.