Zone1 God of the Old Testament and New Testament

[frigidweirdo]

The Pope has always been a human being, and like everyone else, a fallible one at that. There have been some saintly Popes and there have been a few that seem downright criminal. Have you ever heard anyone else digging up a body of a predecessor and putting it on trial? That seems insane.

I don't see how that eliminates choice? I come from a large family and each one of us was very different, making different choices. My children were also very different from one another, were brought up the same way, together but we always going in different directions. They still are. Neither are following the path of either of us parents.

And that's the problem isn't it. Every single person who has ever told you about God is a human being.

Had you been born in the Muslim world, they'd have told you that God was different to the one you know. Had you been born in another religion, away from the big three Abrahamic religions, you'd have seen God even more differently. Had you been born in black Africa (as opposed to white Africa) you might have seen God half Christian, half voodoo (or whatever they call it).

Why? If there's one God for all people, then surely all people would experience God in the same way, but they don't.

Again, points to God (or gods) being human made.

Of course your children will be different to you. They have a certain percentage of your genes and a certain percentage of your spouse's genes.

Also their nurture will be different. Sometimes you'll react against your parents and their way of dealing with things. Sometimes you'll embrace what they do.

So, nature and nurture will produce a person who is different. However, my point was that people have traits and those traits are often similar to one of their parents. My example was traveling, my mother loves it, my father hates it. My parents never traveled far with me I think 8 hours by car was probably the furthest, my father has only flown four times in his life (so two separate trips), and my mother's still going strong in her 70s, going all over the place.

Why would I follow these traits? Because I have free will or because I don't? I'd go with the latter.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Each one of us is unique. Each body has limits, the earth itself has limits. Within these limitations, we all have choices.

We are not just a unique individual. We are also a memberd of a community(s). We have responsibilities both to self and to our community. The choice that may seem best for the one, may be the abysmal one for other members of the one's community.

We're unique, but try this test.

Put both fists on the table. You're going to open one fist and put the palm on the table.

What I want you to do is to open the fist that you weren't destined to open.

 

[Meriweather]

We're unique, but try this test.

Put both fists on the table. You're going to open one fist and put the palm on the table.

What I want you to do is to open the fist that you weren't destined to open.

Decide which fist you are going to open...then choose to open the other.

 

[Meriweather]

And that's the problem isn't it. Every single person who has ever told you about God is a human being.

So were all those who taught me math, English, gardening, photography...

 

[frigidweirdo]

Decide which fist you are going to open...then choose to open the other.

But then if you do this, you were always going to open the other.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So were all those who taught me math, English, gardening, photography...

Yes, and Math, English, gardening and photography are all human pursuits. You don't see dogs doing any of these.

 

[Meriweather]

But then if you do this, you were always going to open the other.

Your chosen perspective

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, and Math, English, gardening and photography are all human pursuits. You don't see dogs doing any of these.

Dogs are capable of seeing beyond what humans see. Humans are able to observe beyond what dogs can. Having the ability to observe God is no the same as inventing God.

 

[hadit]

Have you been insisting on talking about hell, that it needs to be emphasized?

Not emphasized, noted, talked about, mentioned, but not ignored.

Haven't you been saying people need to know what is in store for them (the future)?

Don't you think they should know? Warning signs serve a purpose.

Haven't you been insisting one must tell children they will be hurt or how else will they know they will be hurt?

I've been saying that children are notoriously curious and will put themselves in danger if we as parents don't help them understand the concept of danger and harm.

Haven't you been telling me what I am really saying, "in other words"? In each of these, I have been disagreeing with you, and I have given my perspective why I disagree.

Tell me this: Aren't you thinking I should not be disagreeing with you, and I should make it my priority to tell everyone about hell?

I have not said that, I am saying that neglecting to tell the whole story is not a good thing.

"You need a savior"
"Savior from what?"

 

[Meriweather]

Not emphasized, noted, talked about, mentioned, but not ignored.

Don't you think they should know? Warning signs serve a purpose.

I've been saying that children are notoriously curious and will put themselves in danger if we as parents don't help them understand the concept of danger and harm.

I have not said that, I am saying that neglecting to tell the whole story is not a good thing.

"You need a savior"
"Savior from what?"

Give an example of someone who has not heard of hell and knows nothing of it.

Why were your children in such danger they were not permitted to explore the world around them?

Who is anyone to tell others what they need?

 

[hadit]

Who doesn't know about hell?

By the same token, who in America doesn't know about Jesus? If you're going to take the approach that we don't need to spread the Gospel because we think everybody's already heard about it, we'll never spread the Gospel.

In the meantime, how many of those who have heard about hell have any idea what being eternally separated from God would actually be like, seeing those joyfully in His presence and knowing they can never be there? Haven't you heard people say they don't mind going to hell because all their friends will be there, like it's going to be one big party? I think it's incumbent on us to make sure people have an accurate idea what's waiting for them.

All I'm saying is, and you need to get this straight, Jesus taught about hell, about being eternally separated from God, and to pretend we're not sure that anyone will actually be there is to make Him out to be a liar. Hey, I don't recall you dealing with Judgement Day when God casts out all those who were doing good things in their own power, even in Jesus' name, but didn't have a relationship with Him. What happens to that crowd?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Your chosen perspective

No, it's not.

It's how it is. Think about it some more.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Dogs are capable of seeing beyond what humans see. Humans are able to observe beyond what dogs can. Having the ability to observe God is no the same as inventing God.

Unless of course there is no God, in which case when you "observe God", you're really just seeing what you want to see.

 

[Meriweather]

By the same token, who in America doesn't know about Jesus? If you're going to take the approach that we don't need to spread the Gospel because we think everybody's already heard about it, we'll never spread the Gospel.

The difference is the many teachings of Jesus and explaining/learning the Way of salvation. How does one live in the Way of Salvation? Worldly ways are well known, and easily chosen. The ways and teachings of Jesus, not so much, especially how these ways can bring the strength and joy when worldly ways are overcome.

All I'm saying is, and you need to get this straight, Jesus taught about hell, about being eternally separated from God, and to pretend we're not sure that anyone will actually be there is to make Him out to be a liar. Hey, I don't recall you dealing with Judgement Day when God casts out all those who were doing good things in their own power, even in Jesus' name, but didn't have a relationship with Him. What happens to that crowd?

Let's turn the discussion to a Biblical verse(s) in which Jesus discusses hell. Where would you like to start?

 

[Meriweather]

It's how it is. Think about it some more.

I've thought this through for decades--and lived it.

 

[Meriweather]

Unless of course there is no God, in which case when you "observe God", you're really just seeing what you want to see.

God is. Thus, what is seen is reality.

 

[hadit]

The difference is the many teachings of Jesus and explaining/learning the Way of salvation. How does one live in the Way of Salvation? Worldly ways are well known, and easily chosen. The ways and teachings of Jesus, not so much, especially how these ways can bring the strength and joy when worldly ways are overcome.

Let's turn the discussion to a Biblical verse(s) in which Jesus discusses hell. Where would you like to start?

Let's start in Matthew:

Matthew 12:

36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

What does condemned mean to you?

Matthew 18:

8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

It seems to me that there would be little point for Jesus to say that we can be thrown into eternal fire if no one is actually going to be, you know, thrown in there.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Is the Father going to demand full repayment of our sin debt, complete with torture, if we refuse to forgive our brothers and sisters?

Matthew 22:

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Matthew 25:

28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Again, why does Jesus take the time to speak about hell if no one is actually going to be there? As you like to point out, why put fear into people if there's nothing to fear?

Let's then look at what you've been steadfastly ignoring while proclaiming you don't know for sure anyone is actually going to spend eternity apart from God:

Matthew 25:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

Now, are you maintaining that there will NOT be a great crowd of people to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"?

 

[Meriweather]

Let's start in Matthew:

Matthew 12:

36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

Let's start with a verse(s). Matthew 12:36-37 will suffice. Condemned, in Aramaic/Hebrew means to be pronounced wrong. There is no mention of hell, although it may indicate a punishment of some type. We should also recall Jesus assurance that sins are forgiven.

As a teaching, it indicates the power of words. By your words, you will be called innocent, pure, righteous or, you will be judged to be in the wrong for those and whatever the consequences are for that wrong.

Did you know it wasn't for a couple of hundred years after Christ (and the after the Gospels were written) that "hell" as we know it (Dante's version) came into existence? Therefore, the word 'condemned' as used then could not have been sent to hell. It meant a person was in the wrong and deserving of consequences for that wrong, or forgiven.

The point: If one wishes to live, to be, righteous and innocent--then one must work on language use and what is spoken.

 

[hadit]

Let's start with a verse(s). Matthew 12:36-37 will suffice. Condemned, in Aramaic/Hebrew means to be pronounced wrong. There is no mention of hell, although it may indicate a punishment of some type. We should also recall Jesus assurance that sins are forgiven.

As a teaching, it indicates the power of words. By your words, you will be called innocent, pure, righteous or, you will be judged to be in the wrong for those and whatever the consequences are for that wrong.

Did you know it wasn't for a couple of hundred years after Christ (and the after the Gospels were written) that "hell" as we know it (Dante's version) came into existence? Therefore, the word 'condemned' as used then could not have been sent to hell. It meant a person was in the wrong and deserving of consequences for that wrong, or forgiven.

The point: If one wishes to live, to be, righteous and innocent--then one must work on language use and what is spoken.

Now hold on a moment there. You waxed indignant when I said Purgatory is unnecessary because I am totally covered by the blood of Christ, even the sin of which I have not had opportunity to repent, yet here you are saying in essence the same thing, that Jesus declares sin forgiven for those standing before Him in judgement. By your first standard, none will be declared innocent, pure, and righteous and all will be declared wrong. By your second, it sounds like you're saying that none will be judged wrong.

But please, go on with the other places where Jesus talks about eternal separation from God, even fire and torment.

 

[Meriweather]

Now hold on a moment there. You waxed indignant when I said Purgatory is unnecessary because I am totally covered by the blood of Christ, even the sin of which I have not had opportunity to repent, yet here you are saying in essence the same thing, that Jesus declares sin forgiven for those standing before Him in judgement. By your first standard, none will be declared innocent, pure, and righteous and all will be declared wrong. By your second, it sounds like you're saying that none will be judged wrong.

I know we disagree on purgatory, so I did not raise the issue. In essence I said that there may be consequences: Punishment of some kind--including eternal separation from God (hell); purification (purgatory). Or...sins are forgiven. My first point is that "condemned" is a translation from the Hebrew/Aramaic that identifies that which is wrong. It does not indicate people are going to go to hell, as at that time our idea of hell didn't yet come into being. It means something is declared to be wrong and the level of 'wrong' could also indicate punishment.

My second point is that there is more than one result when it comes to judgment, and we cannot predict beforehand what that judgment will be.

All this swings back to my priority, of teaching the Ways of salvation that Jesus taught. This one is, watch your language and be very careful of what you say and the words you use.

Finally, "It sounds like" is another way of saying, "In other words" in attempts to spin what I say into something entirely different. My words can stand alone.