Zone1 God of the Old Testament and New Testament

Meriweather

Not all who wander are lost
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Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?
 
Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?

It is the same G-d, there has only been one.

There is so much one can question in the Torah, for me the Book of Job has always been the outlier, but also the story I can relate to sadly.

So many questions and stories in the bible that anyone who reads it should have, even a Rabbi or a Priest. I've watched multiple Talmudic Yeshivah services in Israel and the Jewish students barrage the Rabbi with questions. They are skeptics at times and have many questions. This is good because it reinforces faith. If a Rabbi doesn't have the answer though, they say so.

Ultimately, no one will convince me that they absolutely know the answers for certain. We can only go on faith and follow the Torah as best we can. Actions are much louder than words IMO.
 
Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?
Origen? I never bothered looking to the Bible for answers and info on Christianity. I did however look into the Orthodox Churches' early history of Christianity. Fascinating the early church fathers and those Doctors of the Church. Odd lot. Then there was the wearing of hairshirts etc .. some of it still practiced today by Opus Dei and others.

I remember Origen well. I believe some of this is recently argued against in new revisionist history but...

AI says:

According to Eusebius, a third-century Christian historian, Origen of Alexandria castrated himself as a young man to avoid accusations of inappropriate behavior and to maintain his reputation as a tutor:

  • Reason
    Origen believed that he should literally follow the Bible verse Matthew 19:12, which says, "There are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven". He also wanted to avoid slander from unbelievers because he taught religious matters to both men and women.
  • How it happened
    Eusebius claims that Origen secretly paid a physician to perform the castration, also known as an orchiectomy.
  • Reaction
    Demetrius, the bishop of Alexandria, was initially praised by Origen for his devotion to God. However, Origen's reputation was affected for centuries, and some later thought he was a devil.
  • Explanation in later writings
    Origen never mentioned the castration in his surviving writings, and in his Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, he condemned any literal interpretation of the verse.
 
Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?
God commanded the killing of the tribes to ensure the survival of the people of Israel. He did not want them corrupted by vile and disgusting cultures.


It is the same God in the New Testament. Jesus was God before being born a man.

See the Angel of the Lord in Genesis and Exodus. He has the power to forgive, which only God has. (Exodus 23:21)

Abraham was visited by three men, all of whom were addressed as the LORD. When one of them went to Sodom and Gomorrah one of them calls down the fire from the Lord in Heaven above. (Gen ch 18)

Gideon also encountered the angel of the Lord that was God, not a mere angel. (Judges ch.6)
 
Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?
Genocide was a common part of war at the time and a powerful form of terrorism. Generally the conquered populations were killed, enslaved, or some combination of the two. God made a special case of Jericho where every person and animal there was killed to make the point that it was God's victory (as I understand it the story).
 
I've watched multiple Talmudic Yeshivah services in Israel and the Jewish students barrage the Rabbi with questions. They are skeptics at times and have many questions. This is good because it reinforces faith. If a Rabbi doesn't have the answer though, they say so.

Ultimately, no one will convince me that they absolutely know the answers for certain. We can only go on faith and follow the Torah as best we can. Actions are much louder than words IMO.
Have you noticed they cannot accept the actual words in the Torah? They always make excuses for the uncomfortable passages that point to Jesus. They are professional tap dancers and will make the lamest excuses, that the words you read don’t really mean what they say.
 
Have you noticed they cannot accept the actual words in the Torah? They always make excuses for the uncomfortable passages that point to Jesus. They are professional tap dancers and will make the lamest excuses, that the words you read don’t really mean what they say.

Jesus was a gentle Rabbi and in his own way a beautiful proponent of many of the positive aspects of the Torah.

He was not the Messiah. There is no indication in the Old Testament that he would rise twice.
 
Jesus was a gentle Rabbi and in his own way a beautiful proponent of many of the positive aspects of the Torah.

He was not the Messiah. There is no indication in the Old Testament that he would rise twice.

2 Sam 7:12 When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom.

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosperin his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.


Other stories in the Bible show returning on the third day. Jonah who was eaten by a fish, taken to Sheol, and brought back to life on the third day.

Genesis 40, the parable of the cupbearer and the baker and their dreams:

9 So the chief cupbearer told Joseph his dream. He said to him, “In my dream I saw a vine in front of me, 10 and on the vine were three branches. As soon as it budded, it blossomed, and its clusters ripened into grapes. 11 Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand, and I took the grapes, squeezed them into Pharaoh’s cup and put the cup in his hand.”

12 “This is what it means,” Joseph said to him. “The three branches are three days. 13 Within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your position, and you will put Pharaoh’s cup in his hand, just as you used to do when you were his cupbearer. 14 But when all goes well with you, remember me and show me kindness; mention me to Pharaoh and get me out of this prison. 15 I was forcibly carried off from the land of the Hebrews, and even here I have done nothing to deserve being put in a dungeon.”

16 When the chief baker saw that Joseph had given a favorable interpretation, he said to Joseph, “I too had a dream: On my head were three baskets of bread.[a] 17 In the top basket were all kinds of baked goods for Pharaoh, but the birds were eating them out of the basket on my head.”

18 “This is what it means,” Joseph said. “The three baskets are three days. 19 Within three days Pharaoh will lift off your head and impale your body on a pole. And the birds will eat away your flesh.”

20 Now the third day was Pharaoh’s birthday,and he gave a feast for all his officials. He lifted up the heads of the chief cupbearer and the chief baker in the presence of his officials:21 He restored the chief cupbearer to his position, so that he once again put the cup into Pharaoh’s hand— 22 but he impaled the chief baker, just as Joseph had said to them in his interpretation.
 
Have you noticed they cannot accept the actual words in the Torah? They always make excuses for the uncomfortable passages that point to Jesus. They are professional tap dancers and will make the lamest excuses, that the words you read don’t really mean what they say.
You mean Jews don't interpret the OT the way Christians do? Doesn't mean they're wrong or Christians are right.
 
Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?
The God of the OT is certainly different than the Crucified, self-sacrificing incarnate God in flesh Jesus.

Why is that?

Perhaps, it is because Abraham, then Moses, and then all the other fathers of Judaism misappropriated and applied anthopomorhpically wrong, human attributes and societal results to Yahweh. Then, when after centuries of giving Yahweh credit for war victories and other wrongly attributed activities, and their inability to spread the love of Yawheh to all the world, God became man.

Jesus then came and presented an entirely different perspective of Yahweh, by claiming that he and the father are one. And in his time of ministry, presented to the Jews, who God actually was. Then just like they did in the previous 2000 years, the Jews missed who Yawheh was again; a God of love your neighbor and love your God. A god of peace, mercy, grace and above all Love. A love so great, that god would sacrifice himself for the propitiation of not just Jews, but gentiles, and all of humankind. But the Jewish leaders missed the mark once again. Allowed for the crucifixion of their own god. Thus, resulting in the tearing of the veil and then as Jesus declared shortly before his death, the destruction of the Jerusalem and the Temple. The covenant between the Jews and Yahweh was over, and shortly after, Paul ushered in a new covenant between all men and women who could now have a direct relationship with Yaweh.
 
Origen? I never bothered looking to the Bible for answers and info on Christianity. I did however look into the Orthodox Churches' early history of Christianity. Fascinating the early church fathers and those Doctors of the Church. Odd lot. Then there was the wearing of hairshirts etc .. some of it still practiced today by Opus Dei and others.

I remember Origen well. I believe some of this is recently argued against in new revisionist history but...

AI says:

According to Eusebius, a third-century Christian historian, Origen of Alexandria castrated himself as a young man to avoid accusations of inappropriate behavior and to maintain his reputation as a tutor:

  • Reason
    Origen believed that he should literally follow the Bible verse Matthew 19:12, which says, "There are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven". He also wanted to avoid slander from unbelievers because he taught religious matters to both men and women.
  • How it happened
    Eusebius claims that Origen secretly paid a physician to perform the castration, also known as an orchiectomy.
  • Reaction
    Demetrius, the bishop of Alexandria, was initially praised by Origen for his devotion to God. However, Origen's reputation was affected for centuries, and some later thought he was a devil.
  • Explanation in later writings
    Origen never mentioned the castration in his surviving writings, and in his Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, he condemned any literal interpretation of the verse.
I have a note to look into the various biographies of Origen, but haven't gotten there yet. When I do, I will be sure to look for information on that possible (likely?) castration.
 
I have a note to look into the various biographies of Origen, but haven't gotten there yet. When I do, I will be sure to look for information on that possible (likely?) castration.
It's an interesting thing in religious academic circles.

Then there is this I had filed away from 2023:


The Church Fathers: Who developed Christianity as a religion?

The true history of the development of the beliefs and practices of early Christianity are often shrouded in mystery, taking a back seat to the stories of the Bible and Jesus. The truth is, however, that there were many individuals in the early centuries of the Common Era that made indispensable contributions to the creation of Christianity as a theology, and of the Church as an authority. Collectively, these people are known as the Early Church Fathers, and while they might not all be household names, they are truly the architects of the world's largest religion.

Despite being the most widely practiced religion in the world, the details surrounding the origins of Christianity remain murky for many people.

After the life of Jesus, it took a long time for Christianity to be accepted as a mainstream religion, and even longer for the thorough and exhaustive theology we know today to develop.

Christianity grew from the teachings of Jesus to a fully fledged theology through the process of the canonization of religious laws over hundreds of years.

This took the work of many scholars, theologians, and others who devoted their lives to developing Christianity as a theology in the centuries following the life of Jesus. These individuals are known today as the Early Church Fathers.

The Roman Catholic Church holds eight men above all other Early Fathers of the Church: these are known as the Doctors of the Church, and were designated as such for the immensity of their influence on the Church.

Saint Ambrose of Milan, born Aurelius Ambrosius in 339 CE, was the earliest and arguably most influential of the Western Doctors. While serving as the Bishop of Milan, he wrote prolifically on matters of theology and philosophy, and popularized the importance of giving to the poor in Christianity, as well as the idea that the good of one member of society is also the good of another.

Saint Jerome of Stridon earned his place among the Doctors of the Church after translating the Bible into Latin directly from Hebrew, rather than from Greek, like most Latin translations of the 4th century CE.

Augustine of Hippo is perhaps the most famous of the Church's early saints, and for good reason. During his lifetime in the early 4th and 5th centuries, he was instrumental in the development of concepts such as predestination and original sin.

Saint Gregory served as the Pope of Rome from 590 CE until his death in 604 CE. During his papacy, Gregory unified different sects of Christianity across the Roman Empire. He also sent out the Church's first mission program, the Gregorian mission, to the pagan islands of Britain, where he successfully converted many of the island's inhabitants to Christianity.

The earliest of the Eastern Church Fathers, Athanasius of Alexandria was born at the turn of the 4th century. Not only was Athanasius present at the First Council of Nicaea, which resulted in the first established Christian doctrine, he was also the first Christian theologian to list the canon of books that would later become the modern New Testament.

Born in 329 CE in modern-day Turkey, Gregory of Nazianzus accomplished many things in his life to make him deserving of his spot in the history of the Church. Most notably, Gregory greatly expanded on the idea of the Holy Trinity.

Basil of Caesarea, also sometimes referred to as Saint Basil the Great, was an indispensable figure in the creation of the communal monastic practice of the Eastern Church. His views on the importance of charity, manual labor, and community greatly influenced the development of the Eastern Church's monasteries and monastic culture.

John Chrysostom, born in 347 CE, is remembered as one of the greatest and most prolific speakers and writers of theology in the early Church. His epithet Chrysostom can be translated as "golden-mouthed," and is a reference to his exquisite oratory skills. He has also been deeply respected throughout the centuries for his monastic lifestyle and his vocal opposition to religious and political abuses of power.

The first apostolic father was Pope Clement I, born in 35 CE. It is believed that Clement was consecrated as Bishop of Rome by Peter the Apostle himself.

A disciple of John the Apostle, Ignatius of Antioch is known not only as an early martyr of Christianity who was fed to the beasts, but also for his extensive and essential writing on the history of the church and the proper duties of Christian bishops, among many other important topics.

Another alleged student of John the Apostle, Polycarp was a devoted teacher of Christian gospel and tradition until he was martyred in 155 CE. At first, he was burned at the stake, but the fire would not consume him. When his body refused to burn, Polycarp was then stabbed numerous times, but even then, after bleeding so much blood that the surrounding flames were extinguished, Polycarp wasn't dead.

Very little is known about the last of the Apostolic Fathers, Papias of Hierapolis. Most believe he was born around 60 CE and lived until around 130 CE. His contemporaries described him as a "hearer" of John the Apostle. The work of Papias was instrumental in preserving and spreading the canonical gospels to the generations of Christians to come.


The Latin Fathers

While the Doctors of the Church are considered the upper echelon of the Church Fathers, there are many other groups and subgroups who left indelible marks on the Christian faith. The best known to the modern Catholic Church are those who wrote in Latin, and are appropriately referred to as the Latin Fathers.

Tertullian was a Carthaginian theologian born around 155 CE who, despite being barred from sainthood after being labeled a heretic, had a heavy influence on the Western Church. He was a prolific writer and translator in Latin, and is commonly known as the Father of the Latin Church.

Saint Cyprian of Carthage was born a pagan, but converted to Christianity and became a bishop in 249 CE. Cyprian was an early proponent for water baptisms, and taught that they were the only legitimate start on the path towards salvation.

Born in the early 4th century CE, Saint Hilary of Poitiers was a staunch defender of mainstream Christianity, and was often referred to as the Hammer of the Arians due to his opposition towards the Arian branch of Christianity, which was at the time considered heretical.

The papacy of Damasus lasted from 366 CE until his death in 384 CE. He was deeply devoted to the unity of the Church and worked tirelessly to prevent schisms between different regions.

Over 2,000 pieces of Christian theological thought are attributed to Origen of Alexandria, one of the earliest theologians to treat Christianity as a philosophy. His work was instrumental in the early development of Christian theology.

Centuries after the days of the first apostles, Isidore of Seville was considered the "last scholar of the ancient world" before the Dark Ages began in earnest. As archbishop of Seville, Isidore was also responsible for the conversion of many Visigoth kings and leaders to Catholicism.

The Desert Fathers

Far lesser known, but no less important than the Latin Fathers, are a small group of ascetics known as the Desert Fathers. These early and esoteric theologians lived monastic lives in the deserts of Egypt, and are considered one of the greatest influences on modern Christian monasticism.

The fist theologian to walk into the desert was Paul of Thebes, also known as Paul the First Hermit. Born in 227 CE, it is said he lived a solitary life of strict asceticism in the desert from the time he was 16 until just before his death, at the age of 113. He was found just weeks before his death by Anthony the Great, who learned from him the ways of the desert.

Anthony the Great, born around 251 CE and commonly considered the Father of all Monks, not only followed in Paul's footsteps but made desert monasticism a popular phenomenon. Many followed him into the desert, where he is said to have faced and conquered many supernatural, unholy temptations.

In turn, Pachomius chose to follow in the footsteps of Anthony, and led a solitary, ascetic life until God came to him in a dream and told him to build a monastery for the quickly-approaching new devotees to desert monasticism. Pachomius is credited with developing the concept of communal monasticism.

and this just came up online: With great images

 
Jesus was a gentle Rabbi and in his own way a beautiful proponent of many of the positive aspects of the Torah.

He was not the Messiah. There is no indication in the Old Testament that he would rise twice.
You believe this how? Based on what?
 
God commanded the killing of the tribes to ensure the survival of the people of Israel. He did not want them corrupted by vile and disgusting cultures.
While the interpretations I've read/heard align with this (other people/cultures were practicing evil), Origen's thoughts went a bit further than the battle and the command to what King Saul actually did. The prophet, Samuel, had told King Saul that God had declared a ban on all things Amalekite because of their evil--men, women, children, crops, animals were to be killed/destroyed. It appears this was done to a great extent...except, Saul made exceptions when it came to the King, some healthy animals, etc. There are future mentions of Amalekites in later Bible stories, so obviously not every last person was killed.

The prophet, Samuel, was very angry with King Saul for not putting the ban on everything as he had been told to do. Origen offered this insight into the account. In life, every individual is called to put the ban on evil. And, every individual (like King Saul) has a habit of keeping some evil around for their use and/or pleasure. As a people we seem to be fine with the idea that a little bit of evil isn't all that bad. The Commandment is, "Do not murder." We all agree murder is bad except if we are a woman with an unwanted pregnancy. Yes, the abortion kills something human, but a great many people have no problem with this, excusing the killing of a human because it is in the earliest stages of human development. Breaking marriage vows...well, if someone feels unhappy with their marriage, breaking this vow is okay; like any other promise, made to be broken when it becomes inconvenient.

Like King Saul, we all keep a little bit of evil around. Analogies have sprouted up about how willing we are to keep the above evils around us. However, if someone made a double batch of perfectly fine, delicious brownies, how--if anyone--would want the least taste if it were revealed that one little rodent dropping had found its way into the batter? Compare one's reaction to this and then compare it to any of the evils our society practices on a daily basis.
 
You mean Jews don't interpret the OT the way Christians do? Doesn't mean they're wrong or Christians are right.
Depends on what you mean by “Jews”.

The Pharisees were totally corrupt during the time of Jesus and were corrupt long before and after Jesus. They weren’t real “Jews”. Real Jews recognized Jesus as the Lord. The Jews that rejected him went on to have false messiahs and prophets and worked to undermine belief in Jesus with the Talmud, Kabbala, Zohar and “the Hebrew Book of Enoch”…all heretical to original Torah and Tanakh teaching and really Satanic in nature.

Modern day “Judaism” is nothing like what it was during the time of Jesus. They had to reinvent their religion once they realized Christianity wasn’t going away and that they had made a grave mistake in rejecting Jesus.
 
Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?
Echoes of a Prehistoric Horror

When talking about the Amalekites, think of ISIS. This has been going on for millennia.

The desert is literally "No Man's Land." The bandit gangs that live there are Neanderthal hybrids.
 
Depends on what you mean by “Jews”.

The Pharisees were totally corrupt during the time of Jesus and were corrupt long before and after Jesus. They weren’t real “Jews”. Real Jews recognized Jesus as the Lord. The Jews that rejected him went on to have false messiahs and prophets and worked to undermine belief in Jesus with the Talmud, Kabbala, Zohar and “the Hebrew Book of Enoch”…all heretical to original Torah and Tanakh teaching and really Satanic in nature.
Completely delusional. The Pharisees were a small sect of Jews that interpreted scripture in a certain way. Are Protestants correct if they call Catholics corrupt? What about the reverse. You can't define what real Jews are since the vast majority rejected Christian's claims that Jesus was the Messiah. Christians were considered heretics by most Jews but, besides being ejected from synagogues, they were largely ignored until Christians gained political power and began persecuting Jews.

Modern day “Judaism” is nothing like what it was during the time of Jesus. They had to reinvent their religion once they realized Christianity wasn’t going away and that they had made a grave mistake in rejecting Jesus.
Judaism has been reinvented, it had nothing to do with Christianity but everything to do with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans.
 
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