Zone1 God of the Old Testament and New Testament

[JohnDB]

Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?

The Anakanites occupied the city of Kirith Arba.
This was the city allocated to Caleb. The same Caleb that was one of the 12 spies sent to spy out the land that gave a good report of the land of Canaan.

He did not take the satellite city of Gath, where Goliath was from, that was closer to Philistine cities.

But the Amalakites were just one family (extended) of Canaanites....like Perezites, and all the other's.

And it's the SAME God today as then.

Same God of Leviticus.

 

[Meriweather]

Why would you need to study the Bible to seek God? The Bible is literally telling you what to do.

I recommend seeking God, finding God, and then studying the Bible. Compare this to finding any hobby--gardening or photography for example. After finding someone/something on one's own, study lends deeper understanding and knowledge to what is already known from a brief experience.

Back to my point. Religion is based on geography, Islam in the Middle East, Indonesia, parts of central Asia, northern Africa down the east coast. Christianity in southern Africa, West Africa, the Americas, Europe except for part of Albania and Kosovo, other parts of the British Empire like Australia. Buddhism in south east Asia, India in Hinduism, Sikhism, etc, Japan with Shintoism.

Other things are geographical. Food preference. Spicy food in Thailand, India, parts of China like Sichuan, Shaanxi. Drinking culture, some places, like Muslim countries, barely drink at all, some places like the UK, Russia, etc drink like crazy. Different choices of alcohol, like wine in France, Vodka in Russia.

Such things are part of "nurture". People do these, kids are born and grow up to do these things because they're what is done.

Religion is the same. Totally human.

I grew up in a large family. While you notice the sameness in a population, I grew up living the differences in even small populations. Even those of the same faith saw God differently, had different selections for which teaching held the most meaning and/or was most helpful in dealing with one another. Each individual is unique and each person sees things from a perspective that is sometimes slightly different, sometimes hugely different from how those close to them see things.

Similar experiences connect us, as a family, a community, a nation, a geographic area. Our environments--physical and historical--shape populations living in different areas. In each of these there are those who continue in the same ways/traditions as most. In each, there are those who break away and do things their own way, according to their own talents, temperaments, and perspectives.

Different faiths, different religions do have differences. They also have similarities. This takes us back to perspectives to what people observe and what they experience.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I recommend seeking God, finding God, and then studying the Bible. Compare this to finding any hobby--gardening or photography for example. After finding someone/something on one's own, study lends deeper understanding and knowledge to what is already known from a brief experience.

I grew up in a large family. While you notice the sameness in a population, I grew up living the differences in even small populations. Even those of the same faith saw God differently, had different selections for which teaching held the most meaning and/or was most helpful in dealing with one another. Each individual is unique and each person sees things from a perspective that is sometimes slightly different, sometimes hugely different from how those close to them see things.

Similar experiences connect us, as a family, a community, a nation, a geographic area. Our environments--physical and historical--shape populations living in different areas. In each of these there are those who continue in the same ways/traditions as most. In each, there are those who break away and do things their own way, according to their own talents, temperaments, and perspectives.

Different faiths, different religions do have differences. They also have similarities. This takes us back to perspectives to what people observe and what they experience.

But what you are studying? God, or what people say God is?

Seems to be the latter.

Even when you see people seeing God differently, they're basically doing it all the same.

 

[hadit]

These come from two very different teachings. The second has nothing to do with the narrow gate, but sums up the story of the wedding feast where many were invited, but few accepted the invitation. The king went out and called all who had not been given the invitation...but one arrived without a wedding garment.

And in both cases, people were rejected, either locked out or thrown out. Can you at least be honest enough to acknowledge that Jesus talked frequently about those who were rejected by God and He didn't act like the majority of people will be saved?

 

[Meriweather]

But what you are studying? God, or what people say God is?

I am interested in people's experiences of God and the lessons learned. I study along the theme of God in our Midst.

 

[Meriweather]

And in both cases, people were rejected, either locked out or thrown out. Can you at least be honest enough to acknowledge that Jesus talked frequently about those who were rejected by God and He didn't act like the majority of people will be saved?

I start with the Lord's prayer: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. I have had an experience of the unimaginable love God has for us. Holy is that love, Holy is He, and therefore His very name should always be centered in that great love.

What Jesus is teaching in both cases is not rejection, but expectations. What expectations does our Father have for us? All dads rightfully (and should) have expectations of their children. What are God's expectations of us? Knowing the stories circulating in Jesus' time helps us today understand Jesus' point. One story was about a king who invited people to a wedding feast. He told all to be ready, because did not yet have the day or the time. In this story, many lined up at the entrance gate, ready to celebrate the moment the time was announced. Others went about their daily cares and business. When the time was announced, they rushed to the gates, but the gates were then closed, and all they could do was watch from the outside the celebration, feasting, and party that was going on without them because they had placed their own matters above those of their king. (A case that illustrated those not following the Commandment of putting God first, but putting an idol--self--above God.)

The second story was about a king who gave all his subjects clean robes to wear at a wedding feast. Some took great care of these robes, insuring they remained clean and in good condition. Others wore them everywhere, to places where they would become soiled and/or torn and did not bother to clean or mend them. The day of the feast came, but those who were not properly dressed in clean wedding garments were denied entrance. The moral of this story is that God gives each individual a clean soul when s/he enters the world, and the expectation is that this soul should always be clean and in good shape when God calls them to Him. Again, a Father's expectation.

God's expectations of us are not hidden, they are not unknown. If these expectations are not met, we will not be able to enter the celebration. We will be on the outside looking in.

The teachings: Put God first; take care of one's soul.

Hallowed be thy name... A picture of God throwing people into eternal torture in no way hallows God's name and does not keep it holy. In fact, it tends to place God's name in an extremely bad light, where people are able to disapprove of Him when it is we, his children, that should have this disapproval.

Jesus' intent is to present us with God's expectations of His children as He has great things planned and He has invited all to participate. He calls on us to prepare, to be ready because we will not want to miss out on what awaits those who are prepared. Put God first; take care of one's soul.

There is no need to give anyone reason to see God as villainous. He is a loving Father who has a father's expectations of his children.

Again, there is a difference between presenting the Father's rejection of His children, and the children's rejection of their Father. You seem to believe it is important to focus on God's rejection, whereas I believe focusing on our own rejection is the better path to teach.

My apologies for the length of this post. I would like my perspective to be better understood. The better question might be not how many God will reject, but how many will reject God. Will all choose God? In what ways are we failing God? God is not failing us. He awaits us. Will we put Him first? Will we arrive with a soul in good condition?

 

[hadit]

I start with the Lord's prayer: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. I have had an experience of the unimaginable love God has for us. Holy is that love, Holy is He, and therefore His very name should always be centered in that great love.

What Jesus is teaching in both cases is not rejection, but expectations. What expectations does our Father have for us? All dads rightfully (and should) have expectations of their children. What are God's expectations of us? Knowing the stories circulating in Jesus' time helps us today understand Jesus' point. One story was about a king who invited people to a wedding feast. He told all to be ready, because did not yet have the day or the time. In this story, many lined up at the entrance gate, ready to celebrate the moment the time was announced. Others went about their daily cares and business. When the time was announced, they rushed to the gates, but the gates were then closed, and all they could do was watch from the outside the celebration, feasting, and party that was going on without them because they had placed their own matters above those of their king. (A case that illustrated those not following the Commandment of putting God first, but putting an idol--self--above God.)

The second story was about a king who gave all his subjects clean robes to wear at a wedding feast. Some took great care of these robes, insuring they remained clean and in good condition. Others wore them everywhere, to places where they would become soiled and/or torn and did not bother to clean or mend them. The day of the feast came, but those who were not properly dressed in clean wedding garments were denied entrance. The moral of this story is that God gives each individual a clean soul when s/he enters the world, and the expectation is that this soul should always be clean and in good shape when God calls them to Him. Again, a Father's expectation.

God's expectations of us are not hidden, they are not unknown. If these expectations are not met, we will not be able to enter the celebration. We will be on the outside looking in.

The teachings: Put God first; take care of one's soul.

Hallowed be thy name... A picture of God throwing people into eternal torture in no way hallows God's name and does not keep it holy. In fact, it tends to place God's name in an extremely bad light, where people are able to disapprove of Him when it is we, his children, that should have this disapproval.

Jesus' intent is to present us with God's expectations of His children as He has great things planned and He has invited all to participate. He calls on us to prepare, to be ready because we will not want to miss out on what awaits those who are prepared. Put God first; take care of one's soul.

There is no need to give anyone reason to see God as villainous. He is a loving Father who has a father's expectations of his children.

Again, there is a difference between presenting the Father's rejection of His children, and the children's rejection of their Father. You seem to believe it is important to focus on God's rejection, whereas I believe focusing on our own rejection is the better path to teach.

My apologies for the length of this post. I would like my perspective to be better understood. The better question might be not how many God will reject, but how many will reject God. Will all choose God? In what ways are we failing God? God is not failing us. He awaits us. Will we put Him first? Will we arrive with a soul in good condition?

Of course the Father accepts all who seek Him, and those separated from Him for eternity will be so by their own choice. Jesus was specific about that, John 6:37 makes that clear. Now, I have noticed that you are agreeing that some, if not most, will reject God's salvation and will turn their backs on God. Why would we NOT warn those on that path of their ultimate end? What was Jonah's message, "Hey, following God is where you want to be", or "If you don't repent of your sin, in 40 days God will wipe out your city"?

I have no problem with the priority being on the positive aspects of walking with God, I have no problem of loving people into the Kingdom, because that's the Father's heart. He does NOT want to scare people into serving Him because that's not the love relationship Jesus describes.

HOWEVER, we cannot allow that to cause us to ignore the consequences of rejecting God. Each person needs the whole story, which is, without Jesus you are doomed. But there is a way out, someone is standing at the courthouse door with a full pardon in His hand. All you have to do is accept that pardon and be in a relationship with the living God. How to convince someone that repentance of sin is necessary if they are not aware of the consequences of that sin?

 

[Donald H]

It's been explained to you before. Either you were too dumb to understand or you were being willfully ignorant. So of course you won't see any value in these ancient accounts. As far as I'm concerned, you are the feeble minded.

Thank you but I do see some value in some of the accounts, albeit minimal and a waste of too many words.

To the point: Noah's ark being a lesson on getting drowned if you don't believe in the god.

Is there some other message?

 

[ding]

Thank you but I do see some value in some of the accounts, albeit minimal and a waste of too many words.

To the point: Noah's ark being a lesson on getting drowned if you don't believe in the god.

Is there some other message?

You mean besides passing down history? How do you believe they passed down knowledge 6,000 years ago? Twitter?

 

[Meriweather]

Of course the Father accepts all who seek Him, and those separated from Him for eternity will be so by their own choice. Jesus was specific about that, John 6:37 makes that clear. Now, I have noticed that you are agreeing that some, if not most, will reject God's salvation and will turn their backs on God. Why would we NOT warn those on that path of their ultimate end? What was Jonah's message, "Hey, following God is where you want to be", or "If you don't repent of your sin, in 40 days God will wipe out your city"?

Finally you notice what I have been saying all along: That God sends no one to hell; people choose hell. We can start with that.

I have no problem with the priority being on the positive aspects of walking with God, I have no problem of loving people into the Kingdom, because that's the Father's heart. He does NOT want to scare people into serving Him because that's not the love relationship Jesus describes.

HOWEVER, we cannot allow that to cause us to ignore the consequences of rejecting God. Each person needs the whole story, which is, without Jesus you are doomed. But there is a way out, someone is standing at the courthouse door with a full pardon in His hand. All you have to do is accept that pardon and be in a relationship with the living God. How to convince someone that repentance of sin is necessary if they are not aware of the consequences of that sin?

Loving people into the Kingdom? Are you saying you can do that? Probably not, as then you go onto insist on informing people they are doomed, that doom is part of the story. There is nothing more to say when there is so much determination to place God in the worst light possible.

 

[hadit]

Finally you notice what I have been saying all along: That God sends no one to hell; people choose hell. We can start with that.

I have not disagreed with that from the beginning.

Loving people into the Kingdom? Are you saying you can do that? Probably not, as then you go onto insist on informing people they are doomed, that doom is part of the story.

It is part of the story. Is not the Gospel about a redeemer? If there is nothing from which to be redeemed, there is no need for a redeemer. Let us not talk about that.

There is nothing more to say when there is so much determination to place God in the worst light possible.

Worst light possible? Jesus Himself said the things that I'm saying. Did He place God in the worst light possible? Why would you ignore things that Jesus said because they are uncomfortable?

 

[Meriweather]

If there is nothing from which to be redeemed, there is no need for a redeemer. Let us not talk about that.

Why not talk about it? Jesus died over teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins. His is the final sacrifice, the final sin offering, for the sins of mankind. Why on earth don't you want to talk about it?

Worst light possible? Jesus Himself said the things that I'm saying. Did He place God in the worst light possible? Why would you ignore things that Jesus said because they are uncomfortable?

Then you haven't been listening. Jesus teachings, as I pointed out on several occasions, was not about hell as it is envisioned today. Our vision of hell was unknown in Jesus' time. Second, our word 'condemned' wasn't the word Jesus used--or meant--in his own time. Third, Jesus did not present himself or the Father as ogres leaving people to destruction/hell. As I have shown time and again, Jesus was presenting God as Abba (Dad) who is preparing marvelous things for us. He was presenting God's Kingdom as a Way we can enter into today, this instant, and that it extends into eternal life.

Here's the catch: One must not be late in entering the Way, in preparing our garment/soul for the celebration. If we neglect this, we will be locked out and there will be wailing, regret, and begging to be let in. Jesus noted this several times as he also made the point several times that our lives must be useful, we must be useful. Why? Because what happens to things to useless items in our own house? They are judged to be of no benefit to us and they are taken to the dump where they are removed from existence. Are we useful or useless to God who created us, and to others?

In the Children's Catechism I learned as a very small child, one of the questions presented was, Why did God make me? The answer was, To know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him in the next. We were to love God above all else.

Love God above all else? Guess what, as a child I realized God was at the end of a very long list of the people I loved. When I was old enough to write, I even wrote out this list of those I loved, and there was God, still at the bottom. Years went by before God started moving up on my list, then decades. Then, I experienced God's amazing love for us, for all. I don't know about you, but I don't ever paint those I love and those who love me best as cruel and heartless.

Instead, I focus on God's love for us, what He has planned, and follow in Jesus' steps of outlining God's expectations for us, His children: We are to be prepared at all times; we are to work on keeping our soul/garment in good condition, as living in God's Kingdom is something we won't want to miss. I teach Jesus' Way, not Dante's.

 

[ding]

It is part of the story.

And yet the gospel is called the good news because the word "gospel" comes from the Greek word euangelion, which means "good news." So, no, doom is not part of the story.

 

[hadit]

And yet the gospel is called the good news because the word "gospel" comes from the Greek word euangelion, which means "good news." So, no, doom is not part of the story.

The Good News is that God has made a way for man to be, wait for it, rescued or redeemed from doom, from eternal separation from God.

 

[ding]

The Good News is that God has made a way for man to be, wait for it, rescued or redeemed from doom, from eternal separation from God.

I would have said it differently. The gospel is the news of Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. There's no doom in any of that news. It's all good news.

 

[hadit]

I would have said it differently. The gospel is the news of Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. There's no doom in any of that news. It's all good news.

Jesus talked a lot about what it meant to be eternally separated from God, how can we say nothing about it?

What is salvation if not being saved from something? What is being reconciled with God if not to move from a state of separation to a state of unity?

IOW, why talk about fire safety if you don't talk about the consequences of carelessness? Why talk about drug addiction if you don't talk about what happens to addicts?

It simply doesn't make sense to ignore what Jesus had to say on the subject because it makes us uncomfortable.

 

[ding]

Jesus talked a lot about what it meant to be eternally separated from God, how can we say nothing about it?

Define "a lot." Is it "a lot" relative to the good news?

 

[ding]

What is salvation if not being saved from something? What is being reconciled with God if not to move from a state of separation to a state of unity?

Jesus redeemed us. Salvation requires us to accept the gift. But he wasn't arguing we should wait for death. Quite the opposite. The good news is about living; how to live. It's not about dying.

 

[ding]

IOW, why talk about fire safety if you don't talk about the consequences of carelessness? Why talk about drug addiction if you don't talk about what happens to addicts?

And those talks are always about how to be safe. It's about teaching the safe/good behaviors. The focus isn't on what bad things can happen. They aren't the story. They are secondary to the good news. The good news is on the center stage.

 

[ding]

It simply doesn't make sense to ignore what Jesus had to say on the subject because it makes us uncomfortable.

It makes less sense to argue that was the good news.