Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[Meriweather]

So even if Jesus did say what you're claiming He said, what is your point? Because what matters is what the scriptures say, not what some people think it says.

I do take a different approach to scripture--and, for that matter, for news. I am very much against taking one sentence/verse and jumping to a conclusion. As early as Jesus' sojourn in the desert after his baptism, we see him rejecting the position of political leader--and the Jews were expecting a political leader. The Samaritan woman at the well noted this as Jesus was speaking about those who worship God must worship God in Spirit and in truth. The Samaritan woman replied, "I know the one called the Anointed is coming, and when he comes, he will tell us everything." Jesus replied is was the Anointed.

What happens with translations is that the word can be translated as messiah, anointed, Christ. Look at Jesus ministry: He was telling people about the ways of God and encouraging them to follow The Way. He was not gathering a following to take over worldly/political matters.

While Jews today see it differently, it is more than likely that the Jews of the time saw Herod's Temple as a rebuilding of the Second Temple--and connect this rebuilding to this expected Messiah. Jesus, on the other hand, told his Apostles the Temple would fall--and that didn't seem to cause Jesus any concern. Had a political Messiah risen at that time, the last thing he would have wanted was that Temple to be destroyed.

After the Temple fell, Jews said the prophesied Third Temple wouldn't be merely a rebuilding of an older Temple--it would have been rebuilt from start to finish. After all, Herod's rebuilding did not cause Second Temple sacrifices to cease being offered.

Selecting a single verse is called a "proof-text" and it is lazy research to reach a conclusion. There is an old adage that a conclusion is a point where it is thinking that concludes. I am merely pointing out there are many places where Jesus indicates political leadership (which was many Jews expected in the Messiah) was not what he was pursuing.

 

[BS Filter]

I have done the research. That's how I know he's lying about being a rabbi. But you want to accept him hook, line and sinker, without thinking at all. I guess that's your preferred method...good luck with that.

You're such a dick. Carry on.

 

[rosends]

You're such a dick. Carry on.

You are so adorable when you know you have lost and have nothing to back up your position, so you lash out like your opinion matters. So, so adorable.

 

[BreezeWood]

what do you think was the outcome ---
-FOR JEWS of the founding of the CHRISTIAN EMPIRE of Emperor
Constantine and his descendants?

well, for those that died w/ jesus and their purpose, the religion of antiquity - the triumph of good vs evil - the response is complete betrayal their 10000 page c-bible ... the state religion of the roman empire.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

A major Jewish perspective is missing here. Understanding Jewish history and especially early Jewish-Christian relations is practically impossible without studying non - “New Testament” Hellenic and Roman-influenced historical accounts. Probably more than 99% of Jews knew nothing whatever of “Jesus Christ” before his crucifixion, and the vast majority of Jews in Roman Palestine even 30 years later were not at all thinking about him when they launched themselves into a mass suicidal rebellion against Roman rule. If they were looking for “miracles” or a “Messiah” then they were most probably looking for a national military leader in their “national” religious-inspired battle, which at times took on aspects of a bloody civil war. If I remember correctly, this was especially true of some fanatics who carried out depredations against other Jews, were later besieged by the Romans, and ultimately committed mass suicide at Masada.

Anyway, for anyone really interested in these questions, it is very much worth reading “The Jewish War” and “Antiquities of the Jews” by the Hellenistic Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote and spoke Greek, Latin, Aramaic and Hebrew and was a reluctant leader of the early Jewish revolt. They give a much more “modern feel” (probably not very accurate when treating of more ancient matters) to the recounting of this period of Jewish history. Josephus even mentions (some argue these passages were later “interpolations”) one particular Jewish sect that centered around a crucified individual whose followers claimed he was “messiah” — clearly referring to Christians and Jesus Christ.

Here is the start of the Wikipedia article on Josephus:

***

Flavius Josephus ( c. AD 37 – c.100) was a 1st-century Roman–Jewish historian and military leader. Best known for writing The Jewish War, he was born in Jerusalem—then part of the Roman province of Judea—to a father of priestly descent and a mother who claimed [Jewish] royal ancestry

Josephus recorded the Great Jewish Revolt (AD 66–70), including the siege of Masada. His most important works were The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94).

The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Roman occupation. Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective for an ostensibly Greek and Roman audience. These works provide valuable insight into first century Judaism and the background of Early Christianity. Josephus's works are the chief source next to the Bible for the history and antiquity of ancient Israel, and provide a significant and independent extra-Biblical account of such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, John the Baptist, James the Just, and possibly Jesus of Nazareth.

[Josephus] initially fought against the Roman Empire during the First Jewish–Roman War as general of the Jewish forces in Galilee, until surrendering in AD 67 to the Roman army led by military commander Vespasian after the six-week siege of Yodfat. Josephus claimed the Jewish messianic prophecies that initiated the First Jewish–Roman War made reference to Vespasian becoming Roman emperor. In response, Vespasian decided to keep Josephus as a slave … After Vespasian became emperor in AD 69, he granted Josephus his freedom …

Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. Since the siege proved ineffective at stopping the Jewish revolt, the city's pillaging and the looting and destruction of Herod's Temple (Second Temple) soon followed….

Josephus - Wikipedia

 

[BreezeWood]

Keep in mind Jesus was trying to convince the Jewish people he was their messiah.

Jesus the Jew

BBC - The Passion - Articles - Jesus from a Jewish perspective

One of the certain facts about Jesus was that he was a Jew.

www.bbc.co.uk

***snip***


The belief that Jesus was God is an impossibility for Jewish thought. But not so the belief that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. Several Jews have in the course of 2000 years, claimed to be the Messiah - sent by God to inaugurate God's kingdom on earth. Simon Bar Kochba in 132 CE and Shabbetai Zvi in 1665 CE are two examples among many. But the association of Messiah with terms like Son of Man and Son of God, which developed a profusion of meanings, soon led to exalted claims for Jesus that few Jews felt able to follow. Even within the New Testament this is so; by the time of the full-blown Trinitarianism of the 4th century creeds this gap was unbridgeably wide.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/thepassion/articles/jesus_the_jew.shtml.

The belief that Jesus was God is an impossibility for Jewish thought. But not so the belief that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. Several Jews have in the course of 2000 years, claimed to be the Messiah - sent by God to inaugurate God's kingdom on earth. Simon Bar Kochba in 132 CE and Shabbetai Zvi in 1665 CE are two examples among many. But the association of Messiah with terms like Son of Man and Son of God, which developed a profusion of meanings, soon led to exalted claims for Jesus that few Jews felt able to follow. Even within the New Testament this is so; by the time of the full-blown Trinitarianism of the 4th century creeds this gap was unbridgeably wide.

Jesus was put to death by the Romans on the charge that he claimed to be the Messiah. Jesus made it clear to Peter that he regarded himself as the Messiah (Mark 8:29) as he did to the High Priest (Mark 14:62). Some Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah, believing that he would redeem them from the bitter yoke of Rome and bring the messianic age. When Jesus rode into Jerusalem he was acclaimed, "blessed is the Kingdom that comes, the kingdom of our father David" (Mark 11:10). Other Jews rejected the claim.

The charge against Jesus on the cross and his mockery as 'King of the Jews', his execution between two villains, the appearance of the royal messianic motifs - these all suggest that Pilate faced a man charged with sedition. Jesus was not crucified because he denied his Jewishness, abandoned the Scriptures, or disowned his people. He remained a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, the Jew from Galilee and was executed for political rather than religious reasons.

To claim to be the Messiah, if it was an offence against Judaism at all, was certainly not (as the Gospels contend) an offence against Jewish law for which Jesus could have been put to death. The Gospels say that Jesus' claim to be the Messiah was blasphemy, but in Jewish law, blasphemy was to curse God using God's sacred name. Jesus did nothing of the sort. For Jews, history has shown that Jesus was not the long-awaited Messiah, for Jews were not delivered from the yoke of Roman bondage and the Golden Age did not come. However, some Jews have suggested that Jesus was following in the footsteps of the biblical prophets (cf. Mark 6:15, Matt 21:11).

One of the certain facts about Jesus was that he was a Jew. He was a child of Jewish parents, brought up in a Jewish home and reared among Jewish traditions. Throughout his life, Jesus lived among Jews and his followers were Jews.

your post is slanted further than most, the claim jesus claimed to be a messiah ...

the above example is simply inaccurate from all common knowledge concerning the initial events of the 1st century - mary and joseph were anything but traditional jews and without doubt in name only ... they were swingers as well mary magdalene and jesus that were certainly contributing factors during the crucial years of jesus's life ... everything about those particular characters are an anathema to moses and their phony 10 commandments, judiasm -

they were heavenly for the opposite reason you propose.

 

[Batcat]

howabout - not historically correct ...

bat, if the jews did not believe the rendition of a&e written by moses - about original sin - or its entirety as best for the religious - - at what time was original sin made a subject of concern ... for someone to sacrifice their life for christians to be saved - as that must have been after jesus's time ...

- so who really died for your sins.

Perhaps the Hebrews should have considered “original sin“ to be more of a problem than they did.

 

[BreezeWood]

But my point was that there are two advents, and in the second advent, the Messiah will be the conquering King

1st - the cataclysmic event during the time of noah - 2nd the conclusion of their parable, the triumph of one over the other, the final judgment for who remains ... in peace for the correct result.

 

[Batcat]

your post is slanted further than most, the claim jesus claimed to be a messiah ...

the above example is simply inaccurate from all common knowledge concerning the initial events of the 1st century - mary and joseph were anything but traditional jews and without doubt in name only ... they were swingers as well mary magdalene and jesus that were certainly contributing factors during the crucial years of jesus's life ... everything about those particular characters are an anathema to moses and their phony 10 commandments, judiasm -

they were heavenly for the opposite reason you propose.

It is not surprising that Christians and Jews have different views on Christ and who he was. As a Christian, I chose to believe he was the Messiah.

Resurrection Debate #3: Did Jesus Publicly Claim to Be the Messiah? Resurrection Debate #3: Did Jesus Publicly Claim to Be the Messiah?

Michael J. Alter is the author of the copiously researched, 913-page volume, The Resurrection: a Critical Inquiry (2015). I initially offered 59 "brief" Michael Alter asserted that Jesus never "publicly" claimed He was the Messiah. This is factually incorrect; e.g., as seen by His constant...

www.patheos.com

 

[BreezeWood]

Perhaps the Hebrews should have considered “original sin“ to be more of a problem than they did.

bat, who else would that have been an issue for - including jesus ... if the jews did not believe in original sin at that time - what in your opinion would have been jesus's mission. as it actually was.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Lest any think of condemning Josephus outright as “traitor to the Jewish cause” one should consider that his subsequent “apologetics” defending Judaism within the pagan world were instrumental in building respect and tolerance for Jewish tradition within the Roman Empire (with its many other religious sects). This was crucial for the very survival of the recently defeated Jews, many of whom were then enslaved all over the empire. Indirectly, these “apologetics” for Jewish traditions and Bible Stories subsequently sparked interest in the new Jewish-originated but very different offshoot religion — Christianity.

The rabbinical movement of Judaism that arose in the period after the Temple was destroyed was largely built on the basis of seeking coexistence with all-powerful Roman authorities in Judea and the wider diaspora. It should be noted that rabbinic tradition strongly denounced the fanatical Jewish rebels against Rome, whom the rabbis then tried to portray as largely not “real” Jews.

A description of fanatic / terrorist Jewish religious radicals like the Zealots and Sicarii during the Roman-Jewish wars is described in the articles below, which reference Josephus and also contain brief mention of their treatment by subsequent rabbinic tradition:

Zealots - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sicarii - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[BS Filter]

You are so adorable when you know you have lost and have nothing to back up your position, so you lash out like your opinion matters. So, so adorable.

Poor baby. So inadequate. Bye, troll.

 

[Batcat]

bat, who else would that have been an issue for - including jesus ... if the jews did not believe in original sin at that time - what in your opinion would have been jesus's mission. as it actually was.

As a Christian I believe Jesus was the Messiah as promised for the Jews. He will bring salvation to those who believe and have faith in him including the Gentiles who did accept him.

To me he is the ultimate Super Hero.

Obviously people of different faiths will disagree with my views.

 

[buttercup]

I do take a different approach to scripture--and, for that matter, for news. I am very much against taking one sentence/verse and jumping to a conclusion. As early as Jesus' sojourn in the desert after his baptism, we see him rejecting the position of political leader--and the Jews were expecting a political leader. The Samaritan woman at the well noted this as Jesus was speaking about those who worship God must worship God in Spirit and in truth. The Samaritan woman replied, "I know the one called the Anointed is coming, and when he comes, he will tell us everything." Jesus replied is was the Anointed.

What happens with translations is that the word can be translated as messiah, anointed, Christ. Look at Jesus ministry: He was telling people about the ways of God and encouraging them to follow The Way. He was not gathering a following to take over worldly/political matters.

While Jews today see it differently, it is more than likely that the Jews of the time saw Herod's Temple as a rebuilding of the Second Temple--and connect this rebuilding to this expected Messiah. Jesus, on the other hand, told his Apostles the Temple would fall--and that didn't seem to cause Jesus any concern. Had a political Messiah risen at that time, the last thing he would have wanted was that Temple to be destroyed.

After the Temple fell, Jews said the prophesied Third Temple wouldn't be merely a rebuilding of an older Temple--it would have been rebuilt from start to finish. After all, Herod's rebuilding did not cause Second Temple sacrifices to cease being offered.

Selecting a single verse is called a "proof-text" and it is lazy research to reach a conclusion. There is an old adage that a conclusion is a point where it is thinking that concludes. I am merely pointing out there are many places where Jesus indicates political leadership (which was many Jews expected in the Messiah) was not what he was pursuing.

That's not my approach either, I was just asking if you had a scripture, because it sounded like you were quoting a direct statement.

I agree that at that time Jesus rejected the position of political leader. (He said, "my kingdom is not of this world")

So if that's all you were saying, that Jesus indicated He was not that political leader, and the Jewish people were looking for a different type of Messiah, which is why they didn't see that Jesus is the Messiah, then we agree.

I just wasn't sure what your underlying point was, because it sounded like you were implying that the Jews have their own entirely different Messiah and we as Christians have Jesus. If that's not what you believe, then never mind.

ETA: There's nothing wrong with asking for scriptural support, that is what people do in these types of discussions...and if someone is going to make a claim, they should be prepared to back themselves up scripturally. It's not "proof-texting" to want to make sure something has a scriptural basis, so you shouldn't call people lazy for simply asking you to back up a claim you made.

 

[irosie91]

well, for those that died w/ jesus and their purpose, the religion of antiquity - the triumph of good vs evil - the response is complete betrayal their 10000 page c-bible ... the state religion of the roman empire.

who "died with Jesus" ???

 

[buttercup]

Or, Christians create a picture which is wrong by inserting a Jesus character into a Jewish discussion of the messiah and this is what causes them to think that Jews don't see Jesus.

There's no need to create or insert anything that's already there, in numerous scriptures throughout the Tanakh. You probably won't like what I'm about to say, but since we're talking about this....there are also OT scriptures about God’s spiritual blinding of Israel. So the fact that many (not all) Jews rejected Jesus was itself prophesied.

ETA: The bible also says that blindness will be lifted, in the last days, and what's really cool is that we are seeing that happening now, as more and more Jews are becoming believers in Yeshua, which to me is an indication that we're getting close to the last days of this age.

There is no concept of "types". There are people and there are figures and roles. That Joseph in Egypt went through many things doesn't have anything to do with a messianic role or figure. It seems that Christians try to find archetypes and shadows which simply aren't valid or useful.

Well, of course anyone who doesn't believe in the NT is not going to see or acknowledge the "types" and shadows in the OT / Jewish bible. If you did, then you'd be a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach. But they are indeed there.

 

[irosie91]

There's no need to create or insert anything that's already there, in numerous scriptures throughout the Tanakh. You probably won't like what I'm about to say, but since we're talking about this....there are also OT scriptures about God’s spiritual blinding of Israel. So the fact that many (not all) Jews rejected Jesus was itself prophesied.

ETA: The bible also says that blindness will be lifted, in the last days, and what's really cool is that we are seeing that happening now, as more and more Jews are becoming believers in Yeshua, which to me is an indication that we're getting close to the last days of this age.




Well, of course anyone who doesn't believe in the NT is not going to see or acknowledge the "types" and shadows in the OT / Jewish bible. If you did, then you'd be a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach. But they are indeed there.

you could find EVEN MORE in the Bhagavad Gita. You can find Muhummad in the OT and
in the adventures of Harry Potter-------and even Beowulf. "God's spiritual blinding of Israel"---
well----nope-----jews (unlike christians) were granted FREE WILL-----one of the most important
words in the OT is "CHOOSE"

 

[irosie91]

sorry-----make that BACHAR----the OT is written in hebrew

 

[irosie91]

There's no need to create or insert anything that's already there, in numerous scriptures throughout the Tanakh. You probably won't like what I'm about to say, but since we're talking about this....there are also OT scriptures about God’s spiritual blinding of Israel. So the fact that many (not all) Jews rejected Jesus was itself prophesied.

ETA: The bible also says that blindness will be lifted, in the last days, and what's really cool is that we are seeing that happening now, as more and more Jews are becoming believers in Yeshua, which to me is an indication that we're getting close to the last days of this age.




Well, of course anyone who doesn't believe in the NT is not going to see or acknowledge the "types" and shadows in the OT / Jewish bible. If you did, then you'd be a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach. But they are indeed there.

I am game----can you cite the passages in which "GOD" decides to render Israel "spiritually
blind" It is not clear to me how anything like that is a crystal ball prophecy that jews
will "reject" Jesus.

 

[Lisa558]

That's what the bible says. So the bible is ignorant?

Please speak plainly. Do you believe that works is what saves us or not?

Actually, never mind. I remember now based on previous posts of yours that you don't even believe in the concept of salvation. See, this is why I never went back to Catholic church once I became a believer. It doesn't teach the simple Gospel.

But like I said before, I don't want us to hijack Lisa's thread, so I don't want to keep going back and forth with you. We belong to two different religions.

I’ve just been reading along, since this exchange with Merriweather is about Christian beliefs and not related to Jewish beliefs, but why do you say you belong to two different religions? Aren’t you both Christian?