Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[Lisa558]

As a Christian I believe Jesus was the Messiah as promised for the Jews. He will bring salvation to those who believe and have faith in him including the Gentiles who did accept him.

To me he is the ultimate Super Hero.

Obviously people of different faiths will disagree with my views.

Except that Jesus didn’t fulfill the requirements for the Messiah, according to Jewish beliefs. A big one is that he would be a human being, and not a deity. The very idea of the latter is in violation of Jewish beliefs.

 

[Lisa558]

who "died with Jesus" ???

I think Barbaras, the thief.

 

[irosie91]

I think Barbaras, the thief.

As I recall----it was two other people described as "criminals". But their
crimes were not described. People did not get crucified for theft---they
got crucified for sedition against Rome. They didn't get crucified for Blasphemy
either

 

[BreezeWood]

who "died with Jesus" ???

till the 4th century ... c-bible.

the religion of antiquity - liberation theology, self determination.

... the state religion of the roman empire.

 

[BreezeWood]

ETA: There's nothing wrong with asking for scriptural support, that is what people do in these types of discussions...and if someone is going to make a claim, they should be prepared to back themselves up scripturally.

is the c-bible all you have for a religion - to impose your will over others ... forgeries and fallacies. and proving your beliefs otherwise you are incapable of in your own manner of existence.

where are the archives they used to "write" the 4th century c-bible - they preserved for prosperity and authentication.

Christianity in the 4th century was dominated in its early stage by Constantine the great and the First Council of Nicaea of 325, which was the beginning of the period of the First seven Ecumenical Councils (325–787), and in its late stage by the Edict of Thessalonica of 380, which made Nicene Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.

they spent the entire 4th century writing the c-bible with no reason to believe they used any corroborating materials than their own self interest and the previous corruption of the judean religion.

not one word is written in the hand of jesus included in their book or any direct linkage to physical evidence for any of their claims.

 

[BreezeWood]

I think Barbaras, the thief.

--they
got crucified for sedition against Rome.

rosend - should give you two a good slapping ... or someone better - not a jew.

 

[surada]

howabout - not historically correct ...

bat, if the jews did not believe the rendition of a&e written by moses - about original sin - or its entirety as best for the religious - - at what time was original sin made a subject of concern ... for someone to sacrifice their life for christians to be saved - as that must have been after jesus's time ...

- so who really died for your sins.

Original sin wasn't doctrine until the 3rd century AD.

 

[BS Filter]

you could find EVEN MORE in the Bhagavad Gita. You can find Muhummad in the OT and
in the adventures of Harry Potter-------and even Beowulf. "God's spiritual blinding of Israel"---
well----nope-----jews (unlike christians) were granted FREE WILL-----one of the most important
words in the OT is "CHOOSE"

Show me Muhammed in the OT.

 

[surada]

Those two statements seem to be contradictory. First you said there's no concept of a second coming in regard to the Messiah... but then you said there is an idea that there are two Messianic figures, one directly after the other.

In your second statement, are you saying that there's an idea that there are two different individuals, in other words two entirely different Messiahs?

Just in case you misunderstood, I wasn't making the claim that there are two different Messiahs. There's one Messiah, but the Bible paints two distinct pictures of that same Messiah.... He is BOTH the suffering servant and the conquering King. I mean, we all know that God Himself is not one-dimensional, He is both powerful but also merciful, loving and gentle.

But my point was that there are two advents, and in the second advent, the Messiah will be the conquering King, whereas in the first he came in a humble way, serving, teaching, healing, etc.

So if you could please clarify your post that I'm quoting, I just want to make sure we're understanding each other.

Also, can you please back up your second statement biblically? What scriptural support do you have for the claim that the two Messiahs (or two different aspects of the same Messiah?) will come directly after the other?

Revelation letter to the 7 churches says soon within a generation.

 

[Meriweather]

That's not my approach either, I was just asking if you had a scripture, because it sounded like you were quoting a direct statement.

The scriptures I have are all the Gospels, but John in particular.

I just wasn't sure what your underlying point was, because it sounded like you were implying that the Jews have their own entirely different Messiah and we as Christians have Jesus. If that's not what you believe, then never mind.

Every Old Testament Judge and King was a messiah, meaning an anointed one. Therefore, there have been many messiahs in Judaism. Note that in Judaism, first the Judges then the Kings were the ones in charge of worldly affairs. Therefore, when Jews lost to other nations and did not have an anointed Jewish king, they looked for their next Messiah (anointed king). It never occurred to them to look for a priest, prophet, or spiritual leader because these remained in Jewish culture.

According to the Gospels, people still acknowledged prophets in Jesus' day. However, after the advent of Christianity, Jewish Canon says that Malachi was the last Jewish prophet. I disagree with that on the basis that John the Baptist and Jesus both qualified as prophets. Remember Levites asking John-the-Baptist, "Are you The Prophet?"

There is so much we don't know and I have never been able to learn much about The Prophet. It seems that Moses spoke of him, as someone greater than he. Moses was known for teaching the Law to the Israelites, and Jesus is also known for teaching about the Law.

My point is that Messiah meant 'anointed' and Jesus was clearly anointed by God (Christian belief) to proclaim the Good News and to teach Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. However 'Messiah' also meant a world political ruler, and this is clearly what Jews meant when speaking of "The Messiah."

I do not believe that Moses foretold of someone in the Line of David because Moses was not only before David's time, he lived before the time of Kings. I believe Moses spoke not of a ruler but of The Prophet (meaning one who speaks for God) who would be greater than he. A prophet is someone to whom Moses could relate, someone who knew God spoke for Him. Jesus insisted this is what he was doing--speaking and acting as God directed him. He insisted he was One with God.

ETA: There's nothing wrong with asking for scriptural support, that is what people do in these types of discussions...and if someone is going to make a claim, they should be prepared to back themselves up scripturally. It's not "proof-texting" to want to make sure something has a scriptural basis, so you shouldn't call people lazy for simply asking you to back up a claim you made.

While there is nothing wrong in asking for a single verse or two, there is nothing particularly strong about using proof-texting. It usually lifts that specific verse out of context and it ignores all the verses. Another thing it does: Causes comments such as, "Sounds like work-based salvation..." which makes your own denominations sound like lazy do-nothings when it comes to serving God and our fellow-man. Scripture is clear: There is no such thing as work-based salvation is equally clear that we are to discern the will of God and serve Him--and we are to help our fellow-man.

All that being said...Paul used proof-texting of the Old Testament quite a lot himself--and I do not agree with all his 'proof-texts' either. Just because Paul used them does not turn them into something stronger than the original author(s) of those verses intended. They serve as analogies, and at some point analogies always fail. Not that analogies and proof-texts are useless, they are not, but we should always note the point at which they fail, too.

 

[BS Filter]

Except that Jesus didn’t fulfill the requirements for the Messiah, according to Jewish beliefs. A big one is that he would be a human being, and not a deity. The very idea of the latter is in violation of Jewish beliefs.

Jesus IS a human being.

 

[Lisa558]

Jesus IS a human being.

I thought Christians believe he was the son of Gd. Why else would you worship a human being?

 

[BS Filter]

I thought Christians believe he was the son of Gd. Why else would you worship a human being?

His Father is God. His mother is human. You don't really know what the New Testament says, do you.

 

[Meriweather]

I’ve just been reading along, since this exchange with Merriweather is about Christian beliefs and not related to Jewish beliefs, but why do you say you belong to two different religions? Aren’t you both Christian?

Just as there are different sects/denominations in Judaism, the same is true of Christianity--only more so. Catholic and Orthodox Christians concentrate more on redemption and salvation, where many of non-Catholic Christians have this idea that seems like the only purpose Jesus came was to be punished for our sins. They say there is a heavenly afterlife for those who believe this.

Catholics and Orthodox focus more on our own repentance (turning away from sin and to God) for the forgiveness of our sins. It is often noted as well that sin seems to have its own built-in consequences and that is the purpose of why God guides us with the Commandments.

Catholics believe that Jesus laid down his life freely so that obedience to the will of God leads to life/resurrection--not death. Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is our faith and our proof of this. Obedience to the will of God is The Way of Salvation Jesus taught, this leads to Kingdom living--and the Kingdom is at hand/within reach of everyone. Catholics and Orthodox follow in the steps of Jesus...Baptism, vocal forgiveness of sins, the Last Supper, the coming of the Holy Spirit, the sacredness of marriage which he taught, a special priesthood which he formed, and the healing of the sick.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Jesus IS a human being.

Would you settle for “was” a human being?

 

[Lisa558]

His Father is God. His mother is human. You don't really know what the New Testament says, do you.

I know more than I’d like.

Then answer the question: you just said Jesus was human? Why worship a human?

 

[surada]

I think Barbaras, the thief.

Barabas was freed.

 

[Meriweather]

Original sin wasn't doctrine until the 3rd century AD.

It was more or less when a name was given to the first sin of mankind. Kind of like the name 'Trinity' was put into use so people would understand only One God, not three.

 

[Lisa558]

Just as there are different sects/denominations in Judaism, the same is true of Christianity--only more so. Catholic and Orthodox Christians concentrate more on redemption and salvation, where many of non-Catholic Christians have this idea that seems like the only purpose Jesus came was to be punished for our sins. They say there is a heavenly afterlife for those who believe this.

Catholics and Orthodox focus more on our own repentance (turning away from sin and to God) for the forgiveness of our sins. It is often noted as well that sin seems to have its own built-in consequences and that is the purpose of why God guides us with the Commandments.

Catholics believe that Jesus laid down his life freely so that obedience to the will of God leads to life/resurrection--not death. Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is our faith and our proof of this. Obedience to the will of God is The Way of Salvation Jesus taught, this leads to Kingdom living--and the Kingdom is at hand/within reach of everyone. Catholics and Orthodox follow in the steps of Jesus...Baptism, vocal forgiveness of sins, the Last Supper, the coming of the Holy Spirit, the sacredness of marriage which he taught, a special priesthood which he formed, and the healing of the sick.

Thanks. I really want to explore this more but 1) I am about to head out for an appointment and 2) it will derail the thread too much.

It would be a great thread on its own: how is Catholicism different from Protestantism? Maybe I’ll start it later.

 

[Lisa558]

Barabas was freed.

He waaaaaas? I thought he was on the adjacent cross.