Zone1 On Jesus dying for Christians, from a moral perspective.

[Donald H]

Not likely with any interest. The topic has moral implications and Christians do not do well in those so do not engage much.

The right and left of religions is at about the belief in the supernatural or not.

As a loyal heretic and Gnostic Christian, I have no problem reconciling the silly supernatural side with the intelligent naturalist side. I have a TLDR on that. --------------------

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
ving said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.

First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Evolutionary theology.

Good reasoning, all of that!

But wait. There's a quicker and easier explanation and that's to first suggest that the Eve story never happened. And likewise the same with most of the rest of it.

I mean, eating an apple is entiely possible but it's tainted by the rest of Genesis that is pure b.s.. And in fact, it's a lot more popular with Christians who give a damn, to excuse the mess in their bibles by not believing they are to be taken literally.

So for now at least, o.k. on your beliefs. You're producing too much interesting information for me to pick bones with it, and spoil the chance of hearing your input.


Fwiw, the Christians are reading here but they're trying to pretend they're not. I would suggest that we'll have to take our opinions straight to them to keep the religions section alive with different dissenting opinions.

 

[Donald H]

It is a moral issue so good luck with that.

I do not fell good about this, but my gift of making Christians run from discussion sites by pushing moral issues, has helped close down a few of them.

Christianity cannot stand up to moral scrutiny. They no longer have inquisitions so all they can do is run away.

Don't work to shut their nonsense down! It involves deep pain for their subconscious to have to deal with the bible clusterf...

 

[ding]

Don't work to shut their nonsense down! It involves deep pain for their subconscious to have to deal with the bible clusterf...

Quite the opposite. I get intense joy and peace from my relationship with Christ.

The LORD is my shepherd; there is nothing I lack. In green pastures he makes me lie down; to still waters he leads me; he restores my soul. He guides me along right paths for the sake of his name. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff comfort me. You set a table before me in front of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Indeed, goodness and mercy will pursue me all the days of my life; I will dwell in the house of the LORD for endless days.

 

[Cougarbear]

Good reasoning, all of that!

But wait. There's a quicker and easier explanation and that's to first suggest that the Eve story never happened. And likewise the same with most of the rest of it.

I mean, eating an apple is entiely possible but it's tainted by the rest of Genesis that is pure b.s.. And in fact, it's a lot more popular with Christians who give a damn, to excuse the mess in their bibles by not believing they are to be taken literally.

So for now at least, o.k. on your beliefs. You're producing too much interesting information for me to pick bones with it, and spoil the chance of hearing your input.


Fwiw, the Christians are reading here but they're trying to pretend they're not. I would suggest that we'll have to take our opinions straight to them to keep the religions section alive with different dissenting opinions.

So, your job is to play devil’s advocate. What happened in your life that makes you think it’s perfectly fine to try and destroy someone’s faith?

 

[Donald H]

So, your job is to play devil’s advocate. What happened in your life that makes you think it’s perfectly fine to try and destroy someone’s faith?

Bringing them freedom from their fantasy world and enlightenment.
And saving their children from indoctrination into lies while they're too young to know they're being hoaxed.

A few Christians will pay attention, as is demonstrated here on this board. Many will not.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Indeed. For a Christian.

Nothing like abdicating their own responsibility for a get out of jail free card. Screw the innocent instead of me, Christians say.

Jesus is God, well more of a half breed chimera, but that aside, he already ruled heaven for eternity. Yahweh never leaves his prison. Nice that given his evil nature.

This is what a demon sounds like folks.

 

[Cougarbear]

Bringing them freedom from their fantasy world and enlightenment.
And saving their children from indoctrination into lies while they're too young to know they're being hoaxed.

A few Christians will pay attention, as is demonstrated here on this board. Many will not.

Is it your job or the states job to train up a child in anything but the parent’s positions on life and faith in God? Communists need to be put in prison for life.

 

[Donald H]

Is it your job or the states job to train up a child in anything but the parent’s positions on life and faith in God? Communists need to be put in prison for life.

Stop the lies of Christianity.

The Catholic church needs to take a position by stopping it's hedging on accepting the Genesis nonsense while trying to accept Darwinian evolution at the same time.

That's only serving to prolong the useless debate between creation myths and modern science.

No, the bible's lies can't be interpreted to mean something else!

 

[Cougarbear]

Stop the lies of Christianity.

The Catholic church needs to take a position by stopping it's hedging on accepting the Genesis nonsense while trying to accept Darwinian evolution at the same time.

That's only serving to prolong the useless debate between creation myths and modern science.

No, the bible's lies can't be interpreted to mean something else!

It’s not your job to tell someone how they must believe your lies. You don’t have the answers, just theories. In fact, science predicts there are other dimensions, doesn’t it! Have you seen what is in those unseen dimensions? Did your god Charles Darwin see what’s in those dimensions? No. All he said was there is something called survival of the fittest. Not your concept of evolution that lower life can go against the laws of thermal dynamics and become more intelligent.

Our view is that we have a vale over our minds. If it is lifted we would see God and the things of God. I personally have had events of it lifted partially off and see the light and feel the comfort of the Holy Ghost. I know God lives.

As far as Genesis, I’ve seen scientific information that suggests a young earth. What I do know is God lives and we exist in His plan of Salvation and Exaltation.

 

[Donald H]

It’s not your job to tell someone how they must believe your lies.

First it's a question on 'who' is lying.

You don’t have the answers, just theories. In fact, science predicts there are other dimensions, doesn’t it!

Then pursue that prediction as your talking point.

Have you seen what is in those unseen dimensions? Did your god Charles Darwin see what’s in those dimensions? No. All he said was there is something called survival of the fittest. Not your concept of evolution that lower life can go against the laws of thermal dynamics and become more intelligent.

Darwin didn't challenge any laws of thermodynamics. If you subscribe to an argument on 'other dimensions' being an explanation for your bible not making literal sense then stay with it. My default position is that I'm accepting it for now. That's subject to the strength of your argument of course. It's our opportunity to find some common ground!

Our view is that we have a vale over our minds. If it is lifted we would see God and the things of God. I personally have had events of it lifted partially off and see the light and feel the comfort of the Holy Ghost. I know God lives.

Are you abandoning your argument of there being other dimensions?

As far as Genesis, I’ve seen scientific information that suggests a young earth. What I do know is God lives and we exist in His plan of Salvation and Exaltation.

We're not going to get anywhere on arguing for or against a young earth.
Your suggestion that there are other dimensions has possibilities on finding some common ground!

 

[ding]

for your bible not making literal sense then stay with it.

Biblical passages do make literal sense if you seek to interpret the intent of the author of whichever passage you are reading. So I think what you meant to say was it doesn't make sense to read allegorical passages literally.

 

[Donald H]

Biblical passages do make literal sense if you seek to interpret the intent of the author of whichever passage you are reading. So I think what you meant to say was it doesn't make sense to read allegorical passages literally.

We can agree that the bibles don't make sense!
At least up until you try to apply your window dressing to the fact, and use it as excuses.
Welcome to our discussion!

One Christian has proposed that the bibles be considered as being in another dimension, but then ran away from the idea when told that it could become an opening for conditional agreement between us.

Can you use that argument or does it not apply? ..................hoping.....................

 

[ding]

We can agree that the bibles don't make sense!
At least up until you try to apply your window dressing to the fact, and use it as excuses.
Welcome to our discussion!

One Christian has proposed that the bibles be considered as being in another dimension, but then ran away from the idea when told that it could become an opening for conditional agreement between us.

Can you use that argument or does it not apply? ..................hoping.....................

No, we can't agree with that. We can agree that you intentionally misstate and mislead others into thinking that. You personify the snake in the Garden account.

 

[Cougarbear]

First it's a question on 'who' is lying.

Then pursue that prediction as your talking point.

Darwin didn't challenge any laws of thermodynamics. If you subscribe to an argument on 'other dimensions' being an explanation for your bible not making literal sense then stay with it. My default position is that I'm accepting it for now. That's subject to the strength of your argument of course. It's our opportunity to find some common ground!

Are you abandoning your argument of there being other dimensions?

We're not going to get anywhere on arguing for or against a young earth.
Your suggestion that there are other dimensions has possibilities on finding some common ground!

Since neither one of us at this point agree with each other's position, we are both lying or both telling the truth. So, you should do the adult thing and moral thing is to stop telling people they are lying and simply discuss the topics presented. Any logical person would follow this prescription.

I'm happy to pursue common ground topics of discussion. However, you should be open to other's points of view for discussion purposes. Scientists should have open minds as that's how inventions and new concepts and theories are developed. I understand that many are not able to do so because of massive private and government fundings to prove what they want. That's why I don't swallow the bait of any unproven theory like your concept of evolution or the big bang. So, we will commence.

I'm in agreement with you concerning Darwin didn't challenge laws of thermodynamics. His position was that the strong survive. And, that there are changes within species. However, that does not mean amoebas changed into humans. There's just no evidence of lower life becoming higher life into humans.

As far as different dimensions, I believe we have always existed. Our intelligence has always existed as a form of energy. I also believe the Bible is only correct as far as it is translated correctly as well as interpreted correctly. The Bible even speaks of other books and writings that are given from God through Prophets, Seers and Revelators like Apostles. So, our Church has other scriptures and one says that we were all once intelligences that became souls or spirits. And that there were 3 spirits more intelligent than all of them and we assume we are talking about tens of billions and maybe a lot more as well. Those three are stated in our books of scripture as the most intelligent of all, our Father in Heaven, Elohim. The other 2 I'm assuming as my interpretation as the Son, Jehovah, and Holy Ghost. All these exist near a "star" call Kolob but not necessarily in our existing Universe. The reason I say that is because it was Abraham that was being shown this sounds to me existed before the foundations of our universe were set in motion. Then, the universe came into existence and was formed and organized for the purpose of being able to yield life, humanoid life. However, this dimension where our Father in Heaven existed was a universe as well since it was near a star. A different universe. This means in a different dimension that possible exists in the same space or location. Just not the same dimension. This is my opinion and is not doctrine of the Church. However, when I here authorities of the Church speak, it sounds plausible.

So, this leads to the fact that before our intelligences could be placed into a physical earthly body, Father had to go through life as a mortal so that we know that he knows our struggles and knows we can through faith, grow in knowledge and wisdom to become most high god's of our own universes in our own mansions or dimensions. There's a saying in our Church, "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become." So, God put a plan in place. Probably like the one he went through. We call it the Plan of Salvation or Happiness. Also, another saying is "Truth is reason, truth is eternal, I know I have a Mother there." We believe that we have heavenly parents who had offspring in the form of spirit bodies that our intelligences were placed in. Billions and billions of them. Michael, the Arc Angel, came down first, was given dominion over the earth and Eve to set the Plan in motion so that the rest of us could eventually come down and receive physical bodies. The theory is, Adam and Eve have belly buttons but dust of the earth as we are too. Your typical Christian would object to this. But, truth is reason. Who and how this happened, we have not been told this yet. We therefore understand by reason it's true and the Holy Ghost bears testimony to me it is true. And line upon line, precept upon precept we will eventually be given this knowledge. Until then, we believe on the testimony of the Holy Ghost this is true by faith.

We also do not believe that children are born evil. We are able to come to the earth because Adam and Eve chose to disobey one of the two commandments. They chose the correct one to break so that mankind with our spirits come to the earth and gain a body. The purpose is to be tested to see if we can control our bodies, parts, passions and appetites. Without this, we could not evolve towards becoming god's of our own universes in our own dimensions or mansions. Adam and Eve transgressed the commandment. They were thrusted into the world to be tested. Thus, the world had to become fallen as well into a life in which at some point, understand transgressions which we call sins. We believe this happens at an age of accountability of about the age of 8 years old. Children up to that part cannot sin. They can transgress and do bad stuff. But, they do not understand the finality of their errors. As parents, we are to teach them right from wrong according to God's Plan. Not man's plans of evil. I'll end for now.

 

[Libby von H]

On Jesus dying for Christians, from a moral perspective.

It takes quite an imagination and ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians parents would teach their children to use a scapegoat.

Good morals and Jesus speak against the messianic concept and bids us pick up our crosses and follow him.

I have to say in calm tones, you are really stupid.

Let's take the first statement

a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

FOUR ERRORS of yours illlustrated by that same BIBLE

1) IF we truly did sin and we can't redeem ourselves then God must do something,right
Psalm 49:7
No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God.

2) By saying 'unjustly' you deny the very thing you are claiming , that we didn't sin.
IF we are free and did what we shouldn't what else can you call it?

3) You deny even the facts
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS

4) Almost no one atheist or not would claim that God has no choice in how we are brought back to Him
But you do

I must add 5 because I've known so many not smart dishonest people like you.


The following is what the Jews believed


[a]But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things;
and you overlook sins for the sake of repentance.
24 For you love all things that are
and loathe nothing that you have made;
for you would not fashion what you hate.
25 How could a thing remain, unless you willed it;
or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?
26 But you spare all things, because they are yours,
O Ruler and Lover of souls,
1 for your imperishable spirit is in all things!

 

[Libby von H]

Since neither one of us at this point agree with each other's position, we are both lying or both telling the truth. So, you should do the adult thing and moral thing is to stop telling people they are lying and simply discuss the topics presented. Any logical person would follow this prescription.

I'm happy to pursue common ground topics of discussion. However, you should be open to other's points of view for discussion purposes. Scientists should have open minds as that's how inventions and new concepts and theories are developed. I understand that many are not able to do so because of massive private and government fundings to prove what they want. That's why I don't swallow the bait of any unproven theory like your concept of evolution or the big bang. So, we will commence.

I'm in agreement with you concerning Darwin didn't challenge laws of thermodynamics. His position was that the strong survive. And, that there are changes within species. However, that does not mean amoebas changed into humans. There's just no evidence of lower life becoming higher life into humans.

As far as different dimensions, I believe we have always existed. Our intelligence has always existed as a form of energy. I also believe the Bible is only correct as far as it is translated correctly as well as interpreted correctly. The Bible even speaks of other books and writings that are given from God through Prophets, Seers and Revelators like Apostles. So, our Church has other scriptures and one says that we were all once intelligences that became souls or spirits. And that there were 3 spirits more intelligent than all of them and we assume we are talking about tens of billions and maybe a lot more as well. Those three are stated in our books of scripture as the most intelligent of all, our Father in Heaven, Elohim. The other 2 I'm assuming as my interpretation as the Son, Jehovah, and Holy Ghost. All these exist near a "star" call Kolob but not necessarily in our existing Universe. The reason I say that is because it was Abraham that was being shown this sounds to me existed before the foundations of our universe were set in motion. Then, the universe came into existence and was formed and organized for the purpose of being able to yield life, humanoid life. However, this dimension where our Father in Heaven existed was a universe as well since it was near a star. A different universe. This means in a different dimension that possible exists in the same space or location. Just not the same dimension. This is my opinion and is not doctrine of the Church. However, when I here authorities of the Church speak, it sounds plausible.

So, this leads to the fact that before our intelligences could be placed into a physical earthly body, Father had to go through life as a mortal so that we know that he knows our struggles and knows we can through faith, grow in knowledge and wisdom to become most high god's of our own universes in our own mansions or dimensions. There's a saying in our Church, "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become." So, God put a plan in place. Probably like the one he went through. We call it the Plan of Salvation or Happiness. Also, another saying is "Truth is reason, truth is eternal, I know I have a Mother there." We believe that we have heavenly parents who had offspring in the form of spirit bodies that our intelligences were placed in. Billions and billions of them. Michael, the Arc Angel, came down first, was given dominion over the earth and Eve to set the Plan in motion so that the rest of us could eventually come down and receive physical bodies. The theory is, Adam and Eve have belly buttons but dust of the earth as we are too. Your typical Christian would object to this. But, truth is reason. Who and how this happened, we have not been told this yet. We therefore understand by reason it's true and the Holy Ghost bears testimony to me it is true. And line upon line, precept upon precept we will eventually be given this knowledge. Until then, we believe on the testimony of the Holy Ghost this is true by faith.

We also do not believe that children are born evil. We are able to come to the earth because Adam and Eve chose to disobey one of the two commandments. They chose the correct one to break so that mankind with our spirits come to the earth and gain a body. The purpose is to be tested to see if we can control our bodies, parts, passions and appetites. Without this, we could not evolve towards becoming god's of our own universes in our own dimensions or mansions. Adam and Eve transgressed the commandment. They were thrusted into the world to be tested. Thus, the world had to become fallen as well into a life in which at some point, understand transgressions which we call sins. We believe this happens at an age of accountability of about the age of 8 years old. Children up to that part cannot sin. They can transgress and do bad stuff. But, they do not understand the finality of their errors. As parents, we are to teach them right from wrong according to God's Plan. Not man's plans of evil. I'll end for now.

Wy argue with a moron , it makes you look bad. Honestly.

Don't talk a lot with fools, and don't go to the unintelligent. Be on guard against them so that you don't have trouble and don't get dirty when they shake themselves off. Stay away from them and you will find rest, and their senselessness won't make you weary.
14 What's heavier than lead? And what name does it have but "Fool"?
15 Sand, salt, and a lump of iron are easier to bear than an unintelligent person.

 

[Cougarbear]

Wy argue with a moron , it makes you look bad. Honestly.

Don't talk a lot with fools, and don't go to the unintelligent. Be on guard against them so that you don't have trouble and don't get dirty when they shake themselves off. Stay away from them and you will find rest, and their senselessness won't make you weary.
14 What's heavier than lead? And what name does it have but "Fool"?
15 Sand, salt, and a lump of iron are easier to bear than an unintelligent person.

The thing is I’ve learned a lot by studying their foolishness and uninspiring opinions. And, I get a chance to give them some truth that maybe in the future they are inspired to learn more about.