Law enforcement scenario Training 101

[Canon Shooter]

Let's say a 350 lb Russian Judo Champion is walking down a New York City street any here's a young Asian girl screaming in a language he does not understand...

When he investigates he sees a man he could easily overpower lock eyes with him and then flee in a panic

Is he allowed to grab that individual and call the police while detaining him or does he have to let that man run away and try to figure out whether or not he was committing a crime before he detained him?

No.

An Asian girl screaming in a language the judo champ can't understand does not offer a sufficient basis for which to detain someone...

How about if our hero wasn't a big powerful man...
Let's say he was a feeble 100lb old man and he had a 9 mm pistol

Would it be legal for him to aim that weapon at the fleeing suspect and Order him to stand tall because the police were on their way?

No, again, because someone screaming in a language he does not understand does not offer a sufficient basis for which to detain someone...

What if the criminal ran toward him grabbed his gun and started punching him in the face?

And here's your fail.

You've identified the guy as a criminal when you have no reason to suspect that a crime has been committed. Therefore, introducing a firearm into the mix would be the initial aggressive action, thereby negating the ability of the person with the gun to claim self defense.

Secondly, the concept of escalation of force would dictate that the person with the gun try lesser measures to subdue the person. Again, though, that would only be if there was a reason to believe a crime had been committed and, in the scenario you've presented, that reason does not exist...

Imagine both these scenarios presented to a court of rational American citizens and tell me what you think they would say

Presented with the evidence you've presented here?

I believe a jury of rational Americans would find that the judo champ, or the guy with the gun, acted unreasonably and, as such, bears the full responsibility for how subsequent events transpire.

If you're going to be an idiot in the other thread, it figures that you'll be an idiot in this one, too...

 

[justinacolmena]

Most people consider someone trying to take a gun with violence A Deadly threat

That is indeed what I think of all psychologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists, mental health workers, social workers, therapists, counselors, and small-town cops.

 

[beautress]

Let's say a 350 lb Russian Judo Champion is walking down a New York City street any here's a young Asian girl screaming in a language he does not understand...

When he investigates he sees a man he could easily overpower lock eyes with him and then flee in a panic

Is he allowed to grab that individual and call the police while detaining him or does he have to let that man run away and try to figure out whether or not he was committing a crime before he detained him?


How about if our hero wasn't a big powerful man...
Let's say he was a feeble 100lb old man and he had a 9 mm pistol

Would it be legal for him to aim that weapon at the fleeing suspect and Order him to stand tall because the police were on their way?

What if the criminal ran toward him grabbed his gun and started punching him in the face?

Would he be allowed to shoot or would he have to give up his gun and take a knee?

Imagine both these scenarios presented to a court of rational American citizens and tell me what you think they would say

I would say, "Operator, 911"

And the rapist of a young Asian girl would Snicker as he disappeared into the night and you would spend the rest of your life knowing you could have stopped the man who assaulted this child but were too much of a spineless coward to take the risk

I would grab him by the skull and body slam his ass then place my knee right on his neck until the cops arrived

you do you bro

Oh, sorry. I'm a senior citizen and not very fast on my feet anymore. Had I intervened physically my outcome would double the victims at the scene. I wouldn't want the EMTs treating my injury first.

The best I could do is ride over someone's toes with my automated riding aparatus. So I'm stickin' with my panacea.

 

[justinacolmena]

If you shoot someone who is (or has) attacking me, I’m liable to shoot you in response.

You should not be expected to assume that the other person shooting is there to save your life.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If I tell him to keep his hands where I can see them and he decides to do the opposite, I don't care if his hands are cold. Bad move on his part.

You have no authority to demand he do anything, since you don’t have a badge. My exact reaction to someone who hasn’t identified themselves as law enforcement demanding I raise my hands WILL ALWAYS BE to reach for my gun.

Then that hand would be the first to go. Being threatened would be my priority, not wondering about my authority. If he was attacking the woman, and I could prevent further harm to her by stopping him, then law enforcement can figure it all out later. I would opt for helping her, without putting myself in harm's way. Reach for your gun and I would react immediately.

Was the man assaulting the screaming woman? Unless he was, do nothing.
If he was attacking the woman consider this:
When the defund group defunds the police and there is no one there to take your call, shoot him in the foot, cause who is he going to call to have you arrested? His social worker?
Now that he can't follow you, go get the victim, provided she was being victimized, and leave the premises.

You don't speak her language and you can't determine whether or not he was actually assaulting her but his behavior when he saw you was highly indicative that he was up to no good

would you let him run away or grab him by the collar and hold him for law enforcement?

Depends on what he was doing when I arrived on the scene. If he was not assaulting her, and he fled, then the danger fled with him. I don't have to understand what she said. With the threat gone, see if she needs assistance. If there are still police to call and he was physically hurting the woman, un-conceal your weapon and hold him at bay until the police arrive.

what if he grabbed your weapon and started punching you in the face in an attempt to gain control over it?

Most people consider someone trying to take a gun with violence A Deadly threat

Why would I allow a 300 lb man to get close enough to me to grab my gun? "One more step, you die" would be my reaction.

 

[justinacolmena]

Why would I allow a 300 lb man to get close enough to me to grab my gun? "One more step, you die" would be my reaction.

You might have to pass by that other person civilly on a sidewalk, and you should be prepared, but keep such thoughts to yourself.

 

[Anathema]

And a world where each and every one of us is afforded the right to possess and carry firearms in pursuance of the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

Definitely. I carry multiple self-defense tools, including (but not limited to) firearms, almost every time I leave my home. I also take the moral and legal responsibilities of carrying and potentially using those tools, and my martial arts training very seriously.

 

[KingGUERRILLA]

Let's say a 350 lb Russian Judo Champion is walking down a New York City street any here's a young Asian girl screaming in a language he does not understand...

When he investigates he sees a man he could easily overpower lock eyes with him and then flee in a panic

Is he allowed to grab that individual and call the police while detaining him or does he have to let that man run away and try to figure out whether or not he was committing a crime before he detained him?

No.

An Asian girl screaming in a language the judo champ can't understand does not offer a sufficient basis for which to detain someone...

How about if our hero wasn't a big powerful man...
Let's say he was a feeble 100lb old man and he had a 9 mm pistol

Would it be legal for him to aim that weapon at the fleeing suspect and Order him to stand tall because the police were on their way?

No, again, because someone screaming in a language he does not understand does not offer a sufficient basis for which to detain someone...

What if the criminal ran toward him grabbed his gun and started punching him in the face?

And here's your fail.

You've identified the guy as a criminal when you have no reason to suspect that a crime has been committed. Therefore, introducing a firearm into the mix would be the initial aggressive action, thereby negating the ability of the person with the gun to claim self defense.

Secondly, the concept of escalation of force would dictate that the person with the gun try lesser measures to subdue the person. Again, though, that would only be if there was a reason to believe a crime had been committed and, in the scenario you've presented, that reason does not exist...

Imagine both these scenarios presented to a court of rational American citizens and tell me what you think they would say

Presented with the evidence you've presented here?

I believe a jury of rational Americans would find that the judo champ, or the guy with the gun, acted unreasonably and, as such, bears the full responsibility for how subsequent events transpire.

If you're going to be an idiot in the other thread, it figures that you'll be an idiot in this one, too...

thank God I don't have a coward like you for a neighbor

 

[JGalt]

No weapon-carrier I know of would shoot someone just because he's pulling something out of his or her pocket. When it comes to the point where that subject is advancing on you or makes a pointing motion at you with an object, then all bets are off, and that person becomes a legitimate threat, at which time deadly force is justifiable.

I’m 100% in agreement with you. Nobody I know personally would do anything like that. Unfortunately I’ve run into more than a few morons online who I truly believe might do just that.

That's probably because more than a few online morons are the type who have their cheap Taurus 9mm pistols with crappy nylon holsters they bought at Walmart. They load them with the steel-cased Tula 115 grain FMJ ammo that came with the gun, and don't have a clue what a "defensive load" even looks like or where to get that.

They also took their pistol to the range or out in some field once or twice after they bought it, and practiced blasting away at some tin cans until they thought they could actually hit one at 5 yards. They also seem to be completely ignorant about anything having to do with the proper maintenance, cleaning, and care of their weapons. Trust me, I've bought enough firearms from people who don't have the first clues as to how to field strip and clean a simple semi-auto pistol.

I've seen those people many times at the public range too. That's why I generally wear police-issue body armor anytime I have to use a public range. I've even watched them open-carrying their crappy weapons at the local Walmart, flopping around on their hips, in their cheap Chinese-made nylon holsters.

They give we true members of the gun culture a very bad name.

 

[KingGUERRILLA]

And a world where each and every one of us is afforded the right to possess and carry firearms in pursuance of the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

Definitely. I carry multiple self-defense tools, including (but not limited to) firearms, almost every time I leave my home. I also take the moral and legal responsibilities of carrying and potentially using those tools, and my martial arts training very seriously.

I've been involved with martial arts my entire life and a good friend of mine wrote a book all about the Law and how martial arts are applied

He was a close personal friend my Judo instructor and a lawyer

 

[Anathema]

Then that hand would be the first to go. Being threatened would be my priority, not wondering about my authority. If he was attacking the woman, and I could prevent further harm to her by stopping him, then law enforcement can figure it all out later. I would opt for helping her, without putting myself in harm's way. Reach for your gun and I would react immediately.

The OP specifically indicated that no actual crime had been witnessed. Unless you have actually witnessed a crime, and can reasonably believe there is still a mortal threat, you have no right to act.

Shoot my hand. I’ll own everything you’ve ever earned and anything you might earn in the future in the Civil Lawsuit.

 

[justinacolmena]

I also take the moral and legal responsibilities of carrying and potentially using those tools,

You are NEVER under any obligation to intervene in some dubious situation with your weapons. Your only responsibilty is to refrain from committing murder or mayhem.

and my martial arts training very seriously.

To save your own butt and get out of a tough situation without getting yourself in trouble with the law.

“El caballero” wearing a wide-brimmed sombrero and taking a deep bow for the ladies does not have the right attitude to be flaunting weapons.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Why would I grab him? Why would I get close enough to grab him? I just need to be within shooting distance. With my gun already drawn, if he sticks his hand in his pocket to grab his own gun, I shoot.

...and if he was reaching for his cell phone, you’ve now committed murder.

If he was attacking the woman and decided to reach in his pocket to make a call, I am afraid it would be a bad decision. I would shoot the hand while it was in the pocket.

And why do you suppose that you have to kill a man to subdue him? You don't.

 

[KingGUERRILLA]

Let's say a 350 lb Russian Judo Champion is walking down a New York City street any here's a young Asian girl screaming in a language he does not understand...

When he investigates he sees a man he could easily overpower lock eyes with him and then flee in a panic

Is he allowed to grab that individual and call the police while detaining him or does he have to let that man run away and try to figure out whether or not he was committing a crime before he detained him?


How about if our hero wasn't a big powerful man...
Let's say he was a feeble 100lb old man and he had a 9 mm pistol

Would it be legal for him to aim that weapon at the fleeing suspect and Order him to stand tall because the police were on their way?

What if the criminal ran toward him grabbed his gun and started punching him in the face?

Would he be allowed to shoot or would he have to give up his gun and take a knee?

Imagine both these scenarios presented to a court of rational American citizens and tell me what you think they would say

I would say, "Operator, 911"

And the rapist of a young Asian girl would Snicker as he disappeared into the night and you would spend the rest of your life knowing you could have stopped the man who assaulted this child but were too much of a spineless coward to take the risk

I would grab him by the skull and body slam his ass then place my knee right on his neck until the cops arrived

you do you bro

You would do nothing of the sort. One shot from an armed criminal thug would sever your spinal cord and you'd end up on the ground, paralyzed and dying.

Obviously someone has watched too many cartoons. Go outside and find out what real life means.

Actually I've personally taken a guy down who had a weapon on him a few times in my career

do you work at Starbucks?

 

[KingGUERRILLA]

If I tell him to keep his hands where I can see them and he decides to do the opposite, I don't care if his hands are cold. Bad move on his part.

I'm not a cowboy wannabe. I am though, very confident that I can hit exactly what I aim at. I don't have to kill him to stop him. When a burglar was about to come through my window, I could have blown his head off, but I chose to hit him in the shoulder. Confident, not cowboy.

Good post since you had Reasonable Suspicion a crime had been committed it's perfectly reasonable that you try to detain an individual who is trying to flee the scene where young girl was screaming and identifying him for some reason and should only use force equal to what force is being applied against you

so if you have a gun and he's trying to take it away he is now a deadly threat

Trayvon Martin 101

 

[pknopp]

Let's say a 350 lb Russian Judo Champion is walking down a New York City street any here's a young Asian girl screaming in a language he does not understand...

When he investigates he sees a man he could easily overpower lock eyes with him and then flee in a panic

Is he allowed to grab that individual and call the police while detaining him or does he have to let that man run away and try to figure out whether or not he was committing a crime before he detained him?


How about if our hero wasn't a big powerful man...
Let's say he was a feeble 100lb old man and he had a 9 mm pistol

Would it be legal for him to aim that weapon at the fleeing suspect and Order him to stand tall because the police were on their way?

What if the criminal ran toward him grabbed his gun and started punching him in the face?

Would he be allowed to shoot or would he have to give up his gun and take a knee?

Imagine both these scenarios presented to a court of rational American citizens and tell me what you think they would say

I would say, "Operator, 911"

And the rapist of a young Asian girl would Snicker as he disappeared into the night and you would spend the rest of your life knowing you could have stopped the man who assaulted this child but were too much of a spineless coward to take the risk

I would grab him by the skull and body slam his ass then place my knee right on his neck until the cops arrived

you do you bro

You would do nothing of the sort. One shot from an armed criminal thug would sever your spinal cord and you'd end up on the ground, paralyzed and dying.

Obviously someone has watched too many cartoons. Go outside and find out what real life means.

Actually I've personally taken a guy down who had a weapon on him a few times in my career

do you work at Starbucks?

Video games do not count.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Let's say a 350 lb Russian Judo Champion is walking down a New York City street

Then he's not doing anything wrong.

any here's a young Asian girl screaming in a language he does not understand...

Just walk away and mind your own business. She's not talking to you.

Is he allowed to grab that individual and call the police while detaining him

He? Who's he? The answer is no. A thousand times no. The damned cops need to be coerced, compelled, forced and disciplined into minding their own damned business, fornicating with their own lawfully wedded female slaves, and leaving other people alone.

I'm not sure what kind of spineless sniveling coward you have to be to let the man run away but I guess I can see your point

I myself couldn't live with the knowledge that I let a rapist of a child run off into the night because I was too much of a coward to Simply hold him for law enforcement

Here's the problem, numbnuts (siince you like "what if" scenarios):

What if the guy you saw took a swing at you when you grabbed him? You've made it clear that your chosen course of action would be to shoot him.

But then an interpreter shows up you find out the little girl was screaming because her daddy, the guy you just shot and killed, wouldn't let her have any candy.

You'd end up as some big, black buck's girlfriend in the joint.

A little girl screaming in a language you don't understand is insufficient for you to conclude that a crime has been committed.

Period.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Then that hand would be the first to go. Being threatened would be my priority, not wondering about my authority. If he was attacking the woman, and I could prevent further harm to her by stopping him, then law enforcement can figure it all out later. I would opt for helping her, without putting myself in harm's way. Reach for your gun and I would react immediately.

The OP specifically indicated that no actual crime had been witnessed. Unless you have actually witnessed a crime, and can reasonably believe there is still a mortal threat, you have no right to act.

Shoot my hand. I’ll own everything you’ve ever earned and anything you might earn in the future in the Civil Lawsuit.

And I specifically indicated that if no actual crime had been witnessed, and the man fled, then no further action would be necessary. Post#5.

 

[JGalt]

Let's say a 350 lb Russian Judo Champion is walking down a New York City street any here's a young Asian girl screaming in a language he does not understand...

When he investigates he sees a man he could easily overpower lock eyes with him and then flee in a panic

Is he allowed to grab that individual and call the police while detaining him or does he have to let that man run away and try to figure out whether or not he was committing a crime before he detained him?


How about if our hero wasn't a big powerful man...
Let's say he was a feeble 100lb old man and he had a 9 mm pistol

Would it be legal for him to aim that weapon at the fleeing suspect and Order him to stand tall because the police were on their way?

What if the criminal ran toward him grabbed his gun and started punching him in the face?

Would he be allowed to shoot or would he have to give up his gun and take a knee?

Imagine both these scenarios presented to a court of rational American citizens and tell me what you think they would say

I would say, "Operator, 911"

And the rapist of a young Asian girl would Snicker as he disappeared into the night and you would spend the rest of your life knowing you could have stopped the man who assaulted this child but were too much of a spineless coward to take the risk

I would grab him by the skull and body slam his ass then place my knee right on his neck until the cops arrived

you do you bro

You would do nothing of the sort. One shot from an armed criminal thug would sever your spinal cord and you'd end up on the ground, paralyzed and dying.

Obviously someone has watched too many cartoons. Go outside and find out what real life means.

Actually I've personally taken a guy down who had a weapon on him a few times in my career

do you work at Starbucks?

Next time you might not be as lucky. Obviously those few people you disarmed weren't intent ending you.

 

[Anathema]

I've been involved with martial arts my entire life and a good friend of mine wrote a book all about the Law and how martial arts are applied

He was a close personal friend my Judo instructor and a lawyer

Then you have been involved with a very different section of the self-defense community than I have. An area of the community which I don’t want to have any involvement with, personally. I know the professionals I’ve trained with would never endorse most of what you’re suggesting.