Evangelicals and Trump

[Correll]

#818 reply to #812

YOur pretense that you are confused by the difference between an Established Church and a Christian Nation i

I’m not confused.

Here is why. I’m presenting only facts. You don’t have much of a record trying to challenge my facts. The members of the Constitutional Convention were not all Christians. Some were Deist, some were Unitarian, some represented colonies that had established Protestant Christian churches. Some represented colonies that did not have established churches. Etc etc etc.

#818 POINT 1 . At this point they represented the Continental Congress that acted exactly like a government.

#818 POINT 2 They were united in Revolution against monarchy. They were NOT united in any universal belief in Jesus Christ being the only Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary , died on the criss to eradicate mankind’s original sin, resurrected and ascended into heaven waiting to come again to reign in a Kingdom here on earth.

But first we must squash your habit of setting up lies to support your grand lie.

You started with:

​

“In the definition of the word, "Nation". a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.​

and you set up your lie here. I bolded the lie.

“Nation is "a large body of people.." That is how the definition of the word "nation" opens. It then discusses how that body of people might be united into a group, and at no point does it even reference the government, as one of those forces.”​

It didn’t take much to find a definition that does:

​

noun. noun. /ˈneɪʃn/ 1[countable] a country considered as a group of people with the same language, culture, and history, who live in a particular area under one government an independent nation the African nations.​

​

*1 The Continental Congress had no explicit legal authority to govern, but it assumed all the functions of a national government, such as appointing ambassadors, signing treaties, raising armies, appointing generals, obtaining loans from Europe, issuing paper money (called "Continentals"), and disbursing funds.​

So do you concede that your definition of ‘government-less nation is pure bullshit? And do you admit that Point #818 1 and 2 above are correct?

I do not concede anything. Even in the definition you found that references government, the nation is still defined as the GROUP OF PEOPLE, not the government that they are "under".

Also, I never claimed, nor does my position require that ALL the founders were Christians. That has been clear. Drop the strawman shit. When you play that game, you admit that you have nothing.

So, Correll, labeling America as a Christian Nation is just an empty gesture, without any practical bearing on anyone's life?

Celebrating our heritage, with Pride and Patriotism, is not an empty gesture.


But I would not expect a liberal to understand that.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#822 reply to #819

Also, I never claimed, nor does my position require that ALL the founders were Christians.

Will you explain why your position does not require all founders of what you want to call a Christian nation needing not be Christians themselves.

You must have some powerful historical references to make your outrageous denial of the historical records we do have of the religiously diverse men that led a revolution and founded a secular government and nation with a sense of religious pluralism being encouraged among the people.

I don’t think you have provided an explanation as to why we must accept your christianized version of the founding of America which must include why you think we should ignore what the lead architect and organizer of the Constitutional Convention thought of Christianity as an institution and it’s effect on a political society over centuries of time.

#642

Here is what Madison thought about @PoliticalChic ‘s high Bible induced morals

From “almost fifteen centuries” of religious establishment.....

Madison, not me Biblical religious establishment, had produced in the Christian church: “pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

You need to address and explain what documentary evidence you have that would convince (even probably most Skeptical Christians of today) that James Madison felt it important or true that the New Republic was being founded at that monumental moment in history to be known as a Christian Nation.

Specifically, when Madison pointed out at the time his view that the established Christian religions in Europe produced fifteen centuries of “pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

#822 Why would Madison want his dream for America connected to that superstition bigotry and persecution, even as just as a label?

 

[Correll]

#822 reply to #819

Also, I never claimed, nor does my position require that ALL the founders were Christians.

Will you explain why your position does not require all founders of what you want to call a Christian nation needing not be Christians themselves.

.....

As I have repeatedly explained a group is defined by the majority of the members.


YOur pretense that you did not know that already, is the type of dishonest game trolls play when they know they have lost a debate.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

As I have repeatedly explained a group is defined by the majority of the members.

I am not a member of a Christian Nation. I am a US Citizen. My membership as far as you are concerned ends there. I am part of no group labeled or identified as Christian.

We need to get you moved beyond sixth grade social studies and vocabulary.

Defining a Group​

The term group is an amorphous one and can refer to a wide variety of gatherings, from just two people (think about a “group project” in school when you partner with another student), a club, a regular gathering of friends, or people who work together or share a hobby. In short, the term refers to any collection of at least two people who interact with some frequency and who share a sense that their identity is somehow aligned with the group. Of course, every time people are gathered it is not necessarily a group. A rally is usually a one-time event, for instance, and belonging to a political party doesn’t imply interaction with others. People who exist in the same place at the same time but who do not interact or share a sense of identity—such as a bunch of people standing in line at Starbucks—are considered an aggregate, or a crowd. Another example of a nongroup is people who share similar characteristics but are not tied to one another in any way. These people are considered a category, and as an example all children born from approximately 1980–2000 are referred to as “Millennials.” Why are Millennials a category and not a group? Because while some of them may share a sense of identity, they do not, as a whole, interact frequently with each other.​

And please provide your source for how you determined there was a majority of professed Christians in 1780s Philadelphia among the delegates who signed the Constitution or had founding influence in particular in the matter of religion. Such as Jefferson who was in France at the

I’m not accepting ‘belief in God’ as the only requirement for being a Verifiable Christian to support your

What constitutes being a Christian as well.

Is belief in original sin a necessary precept ?

 

[Correll]

I am not a member of a Christian Nation. I am a US Citizen. My membership as far as you are concerned ends there. I am part of no group labeled or identified as Christian.

Just because you are an individual part of the group, does not mean you get to define the group.

Any label that is applied to the group, is applied to you as a member of the group. You might not share that trait, but that does not mean that the group, as as whole, does not have that trait.

Does it really bother you, the idea that a group you are a member of, might get labeled as Christian?


And if so, why?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#826 reply to #825

Just because you are an individual part of the group, does not mean you get to define the group.

Neither you nor I was part of the group that founded this religiously pluralist nation.

Wnot define the nation on what they actually contributed to that end instead of counting how many you think sat in pews every Sunday.

The issue here is why do you and your small percentage of today’s white evangelical Christians get to define the group of Americans that founded America more than two centuries after the fact.

Are you in the ‘’group’ chosen by God to be saved and that’s why?

I can’t accept you majority ruies concept because it appears you refuse to answer this #824 question:

And please provide your source for how you determined there was a majority of professed Christians in 1780s Philadelphia among the delegates who signed the Constitution or had founding influence ....

I need your methodology for determining the measurement and scale of each founding father’s legitimacy of his Christian-ness and then how you arrived at your alleged Christian majority.

For example which side of the Christian No/Yes ledger do you put James Madison knowing what he said about established Christianity.

Specifically, when Madison pointed out at the time his view that the established Christian religions in Europe produced fifteen centuries of “pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

#822 Why would Madison want his dream for America connected to that superstition bigotry and persecution, even as just as a label?

Why do you keep evading the Madison Question?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#827 reply to #825

Any label that is applied to the group, is applied to you as a member of the group.

I just want you to identify the “religious label application organization” you are working for.

Who, what, when and where was it decided that The United States of America must be labeled according to one of the world’s religion?


Interesting read dated just before what led us to the Trump/ White Evangelical/ Republican political disaster unfolding before our eyes right now.

Are You An Evangelical? Are You Sure?

"Evangelical" is one of the most poorly defined terms in the U.S. political conversation.

www.npr.org

“Cut that pool of evangelicals or born-agains to white, non-Hispanic evangelical Protestants only, and they account for 19 percent of Americans, according to Pew's data.”​

​

The ‘conservatism Trumpism’ disaster that is coming November 3 has a lot to do with Trumpisms reliance on white evangelicals as it’s most reliable voting bloc. It’s too small and is shrinking.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

So much so that they used the generally accepted convention for writing dates that was used in the overwhelmingly dominant Christian culture which was America.

that “overwhelmingly dominant Christian culture“ was also white and make.

Does it really bother you, the idea that a group you are a member of, might get labeled as Christian?

here’s a clue - I cannot trust the two of you to maintain civil religion in the American pluralistic tradition

How can we be certain that your quest to label our Nation “Christian” at its founding is not motivated by a nostalgic yearning for the monoculture of white Christian dominance you believe was the main ingredient of its creation.

 

[Ben Thomson]

The evangelicals have done all they can to rid Christianity of the teachings of Jesus, on which it is supposedly based, and drag the Christian faith into the mud. I've said for decades that they have been trying to reinvent Christianity with no Jesus in it. Their version of Christianity is completely stripped of any sense of sacredness, beauty, and goodness.

Considering all the teachings and quotes of Jesus from the bible..would he be considered a liberal or conservative in today's world??

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Does it really bother you, the idea that a group you are a member of, might get labeled as Christian?

It bothers me that you are not a Christian against Christian Nationalism like my good friends the Baptists are indeed:

Statement from Christians Against Christian Nationalism — Christians Against Christian Nationalism

Join thousands Christians from across the country in standing up to Christian Nationalism.

www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org

Christians Against Christian Nationalism
As Christians, our faith teaches us everyone is created in God’s image and commands us to love one another. As Americans, we value our system of government and the good that can be accomplished in our constitutional democracy. Today, we are concerned about a persistent threat to both our religious communities and our democracy — Christian nationalism.

Christian nationalism seeks to merge Christian and American identities, distorting both the Christian faith and America’s constitutional democracy. Christian nationalism demands Christianity be privileged by the State and implies that to be a good American, one must be Christian. It often overlaps with and provides cover for white supremacy and racial subjugation. We reject this damaging political ideology and invite our Christian brothers and sisters to join us in opposing this threat to our faith and to our nation.

As Christians, we are bound to Christ, not by citizenship, but by faith. We believe that:

• People of all faiths and none have the right and responsibility to engage constructively in the public square.
• Patriotism does not require us to minimize our religious convictions.
• One’s religious affiliation, or lack thereof, should be irrelevant to one’s standing in the civic community.
• Government should not prefer one religion over another or religion over nonreligion.
• Religious instruction is best left to our houses of worship, other religious institutions and families.
• America’s historic commitment to religious pluralism enables faith communities to live in civic harmony with one another without sacrificing our theological convictions.
• Conflating religious authority with political authority is idolatrous and often leads to oppression of minority and other marginalized groups as well as the spiritual impoverishment of religion.
• We must stand up to and speak out against Christian nationalism, especially when it inspires acts of violence and intimidation—including vandalism, bomb threats, arson, hate crimes, and attacks on houses of worship—against religious communities at home and abroad.

Whether we worship at a church, mosque, synagogue, or temple, America has no second-class faiths. All are equal under the U.S. Constitution. As Christians, we must speak in one voice condemning Christian nationalism as a distortion of the gospel of Jesus and a threat to American democracy.​

Imo, yes. It is a Christian Nation, with a fucked up secular elite that is increasingly out of touch with their people.

Soon if you want to live in a Christian Nation not being ‘bothered’ by us not so Christian types you’ll have to move to one.

When Trump goes down all his nationalisms go down with him including Christian nationalism.

Or

Maybe you will take my opposition to your Christian Nation hysteria from a very nice and intelligent white Christian From the Baptist Church.

No, Pastor Jeffress (and others), America is not a Christian nation. And here’s why it matters

many of us have been saying “holy smokes” to yet another annual rendition of “Christian nation” rhetoric. This year, the prize goes to pro-Trump pastor and de facto Protestant Pope of Fox News, Robert Jeffress of the famed First Baptist Church of Dallas.​

Pastor Jeffress, known for his political grandstanding in the name of Christ and Christianity, creates a kind of holy furor inside of my Baptist bones.​

Here’s what I mean: On June 24, Jeffress led a Freedom Sunday service at his church where he delivered a sermon titled “America is a Christian Nation.” The sermon, which reiterated how the Founding Fathers were a majoritarian evangelical religious bloc, came on the heels of a billboard brouhaha that advertised the exact message of his sermon subject. It resulted in Outfront Media choosing to take down the signs in Dallas due to what the wider public deemed a divisive message.​

“The message that ‘America is a Christian nation’ is flat-out false factually, legally and practically.”

 

[NotfooledbyW]

My goal at this point in time is to see you lefties and your ideology crushed, so that we can have a nation where different groups can live together without being set at each others throats by your sides constant wace mongering.

Really?
isn’t Trump your hero for being such a man and standing up to the evil secularists and multiculturalists who you say are hell bent on destroying America’s Christian heritage?

 

[Correll]

#826 reply to #825

Just because you are an individual part of the group, does not mean you get to define the group.

Neither you nor I was part of the group that founded this religiously pluralist nation.

Wnot define the nation on what they actually contributed to that end instead of counting how many you think sat in pews every Sunday.

The issue here is why do you and your small percentage of today’s white evangelical Christians get to define the group of Americans that founded America more than two centuries after the fact.

Are you in the ‘’group’ chosen by God to be saved and that’s why?

I can’t accept you majority ruies concept because it appears you refuse to answer this #824 question:

And please provide your source for how you determined there was a majority of professed Christians in 1780s Philadelphia among the delegates who signed the Constitution or had founding influence ....

I need your methodology for determining the measurement and scale of each founding father’s legitimacy of his Christian-ness and then how you arrived at your alleged Christian majority.

For example which side of the Christian No/Yes ledger do you put James Madison knowing what he said about established Christianity.

Specifically, when Madison pointed out at the time his view that the established Christian religions in Europe produced fifteen centuries of “pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

#822 Why would Madison want his dream for America connected to that superstition bigotry and persecution, even as just as a label?

Why do you keep evading the Madison Question?

1. It is not any "Authority" we have the makes our definition be the one that is true, but the strength of the supporting arguments.


2. In the past, I've seen demographic trends on the percentages of self identified Christians in the US. The numbers until recently, if I recall correctly were all very high. A group that is vastly majority something can be defined as that group.

3. My position is not that America was one denomination. Thus any differences between individual beliefs is irrelevant.

 

[Correll]

#827 reply to #825

Any label that is applied to the group, is applied to you as a member of the group.

I just want you to identify the “religious label application organization” you are working for.

Who, what, when and where was it decided that The United States of America must be labeled according to one of the world’s religion?


Interesting read dated just before what led us to the Trump/ White Evangelical/ Republican political disaster unfolding before our eyes right now.

Are You An Evangelical? Are You Sure?

"Evangelical" is one of the most poorly defined terms in the U.S. political conversation.

www.npr.org

“Cut that pool of evangelicals or born-agains to white, non-Hispanic evangelical Protestants only, and they account for 19 percent of Americans, according to Pew's data.”​

​

The ‘conservatism Trumpism’ disaster that is coming November 3 has a lot to do with Trumpisms reliance on white evangelicals as it’s most reliable voting bloc. It’s too small and is shrinking.

1. I am not claiming to be an Authority. I made an argument. Your sophist games are what you do when you know you have lost.


2. That you can divide a group against itself and into smaller groups is a powerful political weapon. The way you liberals have used divisive Identity Politics, has been very impressive. YOu have certainly damaged pretty much ALL the ties that bind America together as a nation and set US at each others throats. But, the majority of the nation is still Christian, and even if you succeed in destroying the group entirely, many of the groups that raise up to replace US, will be majority Christian.

 

[Correll]

So much so that they used the generally accepted convention for writing dates that was used in the overwhelmingly dominant Christian culture which was America.

that “overwhelmingly dominant Christian culture“ was also white and make.

Does it really bother you, the idea that a group you are a member of, might get labeled as Christian?

here’s a clue - I cannot trust the two of you to maintain civil religion in the American pluralistic tradition

How can we be certain that your quest to label our Nation “Christian” at its founding is not motivated by a nostalgic yearning for the monoculture of white Christian dominance you believe was the main ingredient of its creation.

View attachment 399515

Because nothing we have ever done suggest that that is our goal. Try to be less hysterical.

 

[Correll]

Does it really bother you, the idea that a group you are a member of, might get labeled as Christian?

It bothers me that you are not a Christian against Christian Nationalism like my good friends the Baptists are indeed:

Statement from Christians Against Christian Nationalism — Christians Against Christian Nationalism

Join thousands Christians from across the country in standing up to Christian Nationalism.

www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org

Christians Against Christian Nationalism
As Christians, our faith teaches us everyone is created in God’s image and commands us to love one another. As Americans, we value our system of government and the good that can be accomplished in our constitutional democracy. Today, we are concerned about a persistent threat to both our religious communities and our democracy — Christian nationalism.

Christian nationalism seeks to merge Christian and American identities, distorting both the Christian faith and America’s constitutional democracy. Christian nationalism demands Christianity be privileged by the State and implies that to be a good American, one must be Christian. It often overlaps with and provides cover for white supremacy and racial subjugation. We reject this damaging political ideology and invite our Christian brothers and sisters to join us in opposing this threat to our faith and to our nation.

As Christians, we are bound to Christ, not by citizenship, but by faith. We believe that:

• People of all faiths and none have the right and responsibility to engage constructively in the public square.
• Patriotism does not require us to minimize our religious convictions.
• One’s religious affiliation, or lack thereof, should be irrelevant to one’s standing in the civic community.
• Government should not prefer one religion over another or religion over nonreligion.
• Religious instruction is best left to our houses of worship, other religious institutions and families.
• America’s historic commitment to religious pluralism enables faith communities to live in civic harmony with one another without sacrificing our theological convictions.
• Conflating religious authority with political authority is idolatrous and often leads to oppression of minority and other marginalized groups as well as the spiritual impoverishment of religion.
• We must stand up to and speak out against Christian nationalism, especially when it inspires acts of violence and intimidation—including vandalism, bomb threats, arson, hate crimes, and attacks on houses of worship—against religious communities at home and abroad.

Whether we worship at a church, mosque, synagogue, or temple, America has no second-class faiths. All are equal under the U.S. Constitution. As Christians, we must speak in one voice condemning Christian nationalism as a distortion of the gospel of Jesus and a threat to American democracy.​

Imo, yes. It is a Christian Nation, with a fucked up secular elite that is increasingly out of touch with their people.

Soon if you want to live in a Christian Nation not being ‘bothered’ by us not so Christian types you’ll have to move to one.

When Trump goes down all his nationalisms go down with him including Christian nationalism.

Or

Maybe you will take my opposition to your Christian Nation hysteria from a very nice and intelligent white Christian From the Baptist Church.

No, Pastor Jeffress (and others), America is not a Christian nation. And here’s why it matters

many of us have been saying “holy smokes” to yet another annual rendition of “Christian nation” rhetoric. This year, the prize goes to pro-Trump pastor and de facto Protestant Pope of Fox News, Robert Jeffress of the famed First Baptist Church of Dallas.​

Pastor Jeffress, known for his political grandstanding in the name of Christ and Christianity, creates a kind of holy furor inside of my Baptist bones.​

Here’s what I mean: On June 24, Jeffress led a Freedom Sunday service at his church where he delivered a sermon titled “America is a Christian Nation.” The sermon, which reiterated how the Founding Fathers were a majoritarian evangelical religious bloc, came on the heels of a billboard brouhaha that advertised the exact message of his sermon subject. It resulted in Outfront Media choosing to take down the signs in Dallas due to what the wider public deemed a divisive message.​

“The message that ‘America is a Christian nation’ is flat-out false factually, legally and practically.”

This topic is not about Christians hassling non-Christians but about you people attacking Christians for doing normal American political activity.


That you turn it around, is just... lying, you lying.

 

[Correll]

My goal at this point in time is to see you lefties and your ideology crushed, so that we can have a nation where different groups can live together without being set at each others throats by your sides constant wace mongering.

Really?
isn’t Trump your hero for being such a man and standing up to the evil secularists and multiculturalists who you say are hell bent on destroying America’s Christian heritage?

View attachment 399584View attachment 399585View attachment 399584

Your ideology of "multiculturalism" is not the various groups themselves. I have no problem with other groups living along side me and mine.


My problem is YOUR agenda to marginalize my group and culture.


This Culture War is not about US trying to attack you, it is you attacking US. You drop your attacks, and everything settles down immediately.


You want a holiday celebrating some stupid made up secular Holiday, and I'm fine with that. As long as you don't take away one of my Traditional Holidays to do it.


The local schools want to have a certain day off, because some minority has some big holiday and it would be good to just have the day off? No problem.


When you don't want the School to celebrate Christmas, because you are afraid that some non-Christian children might feel left out?


That is you fucking with US, for no reason. That is the problem. YOU AND YOUR ACTIONS.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Because nothing we have ever done suggest that that is our goal.

You are with a lying minority in America every time you post your unhinged religious motivation to force the belief that America was founded as a Christian Nation on the unsuspecting population that has no time to study the truth about who how and why our great nation was founded and intended to have a wall of separation between church and state.

According to PEW and other researchers white evangelical Christian Americans at most make up a quarter of the population.

I’ve not seen polling on how many in that category give a tinkers damn about the need to tell me America was founded as a Christian Nation and still That I live in a nation that must be identified as Christian above all other worthy religions and free thinkers and humanists. But it’s impossible that your Christian Nation crusade truly represent the majority of American opinion as a whole.

So to support your desire to tell me I live in a Christian Nation first of all you writie your own version of what happened in Philadelphia in 1789. And then being so repulsively dishonest about the current reality when you lump all Christians into your cause when a majority of them do not agree with you at all. And Baptist’s join we secular Americans in rejecting your lies as I posted.

I’m not opposing Christians for bringing their religion in the public square. I’m opposed to anyone bringing a lie and propaganda to the public square.

And it’s sad to see Christians like you who take legitimate criticism of their lies as religious bigotry and persecution and whine about their victim status.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

2. That you can divide a group against itself and into smaller groups is a powerful political weapon.

Are you giving liberals and Satan the credit or blame for the Baptist Church staking out its position against your fallacious Christian Nation crusade?

The Baptist’s are one of the leading Christian denomination that fights and protects religious freedom. The Virginia Baptists were allied with Jefferson and Madison in getting the religious freedom WALL nto the structural framework of our government.

I appreciate their history and their take-down of what one of the Baptist flock calls “pro-Trump pastor and de facto Protestant Pope of Fox News, Robert Jeffress of the famed First Baptist Church of Dallas.

“No, Pastor Jeffress (and others), America is not a Christian nation. And here’s why it matters”

 

[NotfooledbyW]

My problem is YOUR agenda to marginalize my group and culture.

I have no such agenda. I Celebrate Christmas and say MERRY CHRISTMAS when it ‘‘tis the season to be jolly FA LA LA LA - LA LA LA LAAAAAAA

You are a jerk but have a merry CHRISTmas anyway.

 

[Correll]

Because nothing we have ever done suggest that that is our goal.

You are with a lying minority in America every time you post your unhinged religious motivation to force the belief that America was founded as a Christian Nation on the unsuspecting population that has no time to study the truth about who how and why our great nation was founded and intended to have a wall of separation between church and state.

According to PEW and other researchers white evangelical Christian Americans at most make up a quarter of the population.

I’ve not seen polling on how many in that category give a tinkers damn about the need to tell me America was founded as a Christian Nation and still That I live in a nation that must be identified as Christian above all other worthy religions and free thinkers and humanists. But it’s impossible that your Christian Nation crusade truly represent the majority of American opinion as a whole.

So to support your desire to tell me I live in a Christian Nation first of all you writie your own version of what happened in Philadelphia in 1789. And then being so repulsively dishonest about the current reality when you lump all Christians into your cause when a majority of them do not agree with you at all. And Baptist’s join we secular Americans in rejecting your lies as I posted.

I’m not opposing Christians for bringing their religion in the public square. I’m opposed to anyone bringing a lie and propaganda to the public square.

And it’s sad to see Christians like you who take legitimate criticism of their lies as religious bigotry and persecution and whine about their victim status.

1. My opinion is not based on them agreeing with me. So, that strawman is dismissed.

2. My actual point about members of a group, defining the group, stands.

3. When you attack Christians for doing the same behavior that you accept from everyone else, you are persecuting Christians. That is not legitimate criticism, that is you being an bigot. My calling you out on that behavior is not "whining" and when you dishonestly say it is, you are being an asshole.