Biden had no authority at all to hold classified documents at his home or his other places

[Robert W]

11B4S

??????????????????? I served in the Army and do not recognize that series above.

 

[Couchpotato]

??????????????????? I served in the Army and do not recognize that series above.

11B is infantry.

 

[Robert W]

11B is infantry.

Things really changed. When I was in Infantry was 111 as I recall.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You just indicted Biden. Clearly you did.

There is no “indictment” under the PRA of 1978, it’s civil law. One aspect of it, it defines ownership and for Presidential records that is the US Government.

For criminal aspects pertaining to classified documents one has to go to the Espionage Act statutes.

Now with that said, as someone that handled classified documents for 20 years, I’m fine with charging FPOTUS#45, fine with charging VP Pence right more, and charging Biden when he leaves office.

WW

 

[Robert W]

There is no “indictment” under the PRA of 1978, it’s civil law. One aspect of it, it defines ownership and for Presidential records that is the US Government.

For criminal aspects pertaining to classified documents one has to go to the Espionage Act statutes.

More with that said as someone that handled classified documents for 20 years, I’m fine with charging FPOTUS#45, fine with charging VP Pence right more, and charging Biden when he leaves office.

WW

I trust what you say here.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I trust what you say here.

You should.



WW

 

[Rigby5]

No one does, not even our presidents.

But fyi, under Obama, through executive order, the vp (Biden) was given the same classifying and declassifying power as the president....

You said "no one does", and that is wrong.
Presidents and VPs ARE given total and complete discretion to do whatever they want with classified docs.
That includes giving permanent copies to themselves if they want.

The other laws, like over NARA and PRA, are to ensure FOIA also gets copies.
But those laws have nothing to do with personal copies.

But Biden ALSO has classified docs back from when he was in congress, which is totally illegal.
Politicians are not able to get security clearances so can not legally have classified docs unless given to them by a president of VP.

 

[WorldWatcher]

That includes giving permanent copies to themselves if they want.

I'm sorry, if you think that President's can give themselves personal copies of classified documents and then retrain them when they are out of office, you are going to be very disappointed.
.
.
.
See this is what people that don't understand what "classified" shows. Documents are not "declassified" it is the information in the document that is declassified. The document is a piece of paper, it is the information that is important.

For example let’s say that there are 6 copies of a specific document containing specific classified information. One located in the White House, 5 located amongst various agencies which also need the document. In addition there are subordinate documents that contain (either in part of in whole some of the same classified information).

Under a normal process when the information contained in a highly classified documents is declassified (or downgraded) that impacts all copies of the document (its information, and subordinate documents containing the same information in whole or portions of a subordinate document).

So If the FPOTUS "declassified" a document, he is really declassifying the information in that document. If the FPOTUS, while acting as POTUS, "declassified" the information without telling anyone (either directly or in writing) for that specific document, you end up with:

• One copy of the information located at the White House (or one of his Country Clubs) being "declassified", and
• Five copies of the information located at the responsible agencies still being classified as the responsible agencies will not know the information was declassified because the FPOTUS (while POTUS) just mentally declassified the information in his head.

The result is someone could be prosecuted for improper handling of classified material for actions related to the 5 responsible agency documents, but not for improper handling of the exact same document if the source of the document was the White House. But they contain the same information! By this we are talking about the information in the document and subordinate information which sourced the document which can have even wider reaching impacts.

The national security infrastructure cannot function in a reasonable way if the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time simply because the POTUS chooses not to tell anyone.

Kind of a Schrodinger's Classified document where the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time until someone asks the FPOTUS to find out if he mentally and secretly declassified it without telling anyone while still POTUS. Normal people wouldn't know just by looking at the document.

WW

 

[Rigby5]

There is no “indictment” under the PRA of 1978, it’s civil law. One aspect of it, it defines ownership and for Presidential records that is the US Government.

For criminal aspects pertaining to classified documents one has to go to the Espionage Act statutes.

Now with that said, as someone that handled classified documents for 20 years, I’m fine with charging FPOTUS#45, fine with charging VP Pence right more, and charging Biden when he leaves office.

WW

Sure all presidential records are public property, but no classified docs are presidential records.
Presidential records are unique things like signed treaties, written speeches, letters of gratitude, etc.
Classified docs are working debris.
The president never gets the originals so there is no risk of them being lost or need to be retained for FOIA since the original source still retains the original.

If you have handled classified docs then you had a security clearance and followed an entirely different set of rules and laws than presidents and VPs.
Like all politicians, presidents and VPs could NEVER get a security clearance, since the main virtue is financial stability, which no politician ever has.
They do not follow any classified doc executive order, and instead are immune by executive privilege.
There is essentially nothing they cannot do with classified docs.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Presidential records are unique things like signed treaties, written speeches, letters of gratitude, etc.

Much more than that.

If you have handled classified docs then you had a security clearance and followed an entirely different set of rules and laws than presidents and VPs.
Like all politicians, presidents and VPs could NEVER get a security clearance, since the main virtue is financial stability, which no politician ever has.
They do not follow any classified doc executive order, and instead are immune by executive privilege.

I agree. Presidents/VP's/Elected Officials operate under different rules.

There is essentially nothing they cannot do with classified docs.

False, one thing they cannot do is take personal copies and keep them after they leave office and willfully fail surrender them to authorized Officers of the Government.

Ex-Presidents, Ex-Vice Presidents, Ex-Elected Officials have no right to keep government property or classified documents.

WW

 

[Rigby5]

I'm sorry, if you think that President's can give themselves personal copies of classified documents and then retrain them when they are out of office, you are going to be very disappointed.
.
.
.
See this is what people that don't understand what "classified" shows. Documents are not "declassified" it is the information in the document that is declassified. The document is a piece of paper, it is the information that is important.

For example let’s say that there are 6 copies of a specific document containing specific classified information. One located in the White House, 5 located amongst various agencies which also need the document. In addition there are subordinate documents that contain (either in part of in whole some of the same classified information).

Under a normal process when the information contained in a highly classified documents is declassified (or downgraded) that impacts all copies of the document (its information, and subordinate documents containing the same information in whole or portions of a subordinate document).

So If the FPOTUS "declassified" a document, he is really declassifying the information in that document. If the FPOTUS, while acting as POTUS, "declassified" the information without telling anyone (either directly or in writing) for that specific document, you end up with:

• One copy of the information located at the White House (or one of his Country Clubs) being "declassified", and
• Five copies of the information located at the responsible agencies still being classified as the responsible agencies will not know the information was declassified because the FPOTUS (while POTUS) just mentally declassified the information in his head.

The result is someone could be prosecuted for improper handling of classified material for actions related to the 5 responsible agency documents, but not for improper handling of the exact same document if the source of the document was the White House. But they contain the same information! By this we are talking about the information in the document and subordinate information which sourced the document which can have even wider reaching impacts.

The national security infrastructure cannot function in a reasonable way if the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time simply because the POTUS chooses not to tell anyone.

Kind of a Schrodinger's Classified document where the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time until someone asks the FPOTUS to find out if he mentally and secretly declassified it without telling anyone while still POTUS. Normal people wouldn't know just by looking at the document.

WW

Wrong.
President do NOT at all ever have to "declassify" any classified doc in order to do whatever they want with them.
What you are forgetting is that unlike all other laws, where the legal authority comes from the defense of inherent individual rights, all classified docs laws are totally arbitrary. They are from the dictatorship of executive privilege.
Why are classified docs a dictatorship?
Because they are totally arbitrary and up to the whim of the president and VP.
They are supposed to give them to labs, allies, ambassadors, generals, etc., whenever they arbitrarily decide there is any good reason to do so.
Its totally up to them, on a whim, guess, hunch, etc.

When a president of VP gives classified docs to someone without a security clearance, that does NOT cause the doc to be declassified and does not allow others to start propagating it.
Again, presidents and VPs frequently do and must give copies of classified docs to those without security clearances, like labs, allies, ambassadors, generals, politicians, etc.
When a president or VP says so, then it is perfectly legal for those without security clearances to possess any classified docs the president or VP desire them to have.

This should be obvious, since no cabinet member can ever get a security clearance since they are politicians, and yet they always had to be able to read and keep copies of classified docs that presidents or VPs given them.

 

[Rigby5]

View attachment 900634

Much more than that.



I agree. Presidents/VP's/Elected Officials operate under different rules.



False, one thing they cannot do is take personal copies and keep them after they leave office and willfully fail surrender them to authorized Officers of the Government.

Ex-Presidents, Ex-Vice Presidents, Ex-Elected Officials have no right to keep government property or classified documents.

WW

Wrong.
Presidential records are things created by and unique to the presidency.
Classified docs are NOT at all presidential records.
They are not created by presidents and are not unique since the originals are kept by their source, like the CIA, Pentagon, FBI, etc.
Classified docs are records of the CIA, Pentagon, FBI, etc., and it is only the originals that need to be retained for FOIA.
The duplicates sent to the oval office for weekly cabinet meeting updates, are just trash.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Wrong.
President do NOT at all ever have to "declassify" any classified doc in order to do whatever they want with them.

#1 FPOTUS#45 has not claimed he declassified anything to the court.

#2 The "F" in FPOTUS#45 stands for "Former", he isn't the President.

WW

 

[Rigby5]

False, one thing they cannot do is take personal copies and keep them after they leave office and willfully fail surrender them to authorized Officers of the Government.

Ex-Presidents, Ex-Vice Presidents, Ex-Elected Officials have no right to keep government property or classified documents.

I disagree because none of the people that president or VPs give copies to, like labs, allies, ambassadors, generals, politicians, etc., ever have have to give them back.
Their copies are permanent.
So you are claiming that presidents and VPs can not give permanent copies to themselves, which makes no sense.
Obviously presidents and VPs have always retained personal copies, and that is what their presidential and VP libraries are all about. NARA is to help with those libraries, but NARA cannot deny ex president full access to their old classified docs.

 

[Rigby5]

#1 FPOTUS#45 has not claimed he declassified anything to the court.

#2 The "F" in FPOTUS#45 stands for "Former", he isn't the President.

WW

I do not deny that Trump is an idiot, but that does not make what he did criminal.

Former presidents retain total ownership of all the classified docs created during their administration.
Since the president and VP are the arbitrary source of classification, then if that were not true, the classified docs would suddenly no longer be classified once their administration was over.
The originating president/VP is the SOURCE of classified authority.
No one else is.
So their authority can never end, unless you want all classified docs to no longer be classified when the source administration terminates.

 

[Nostra]

You said "no one does", and that is wrong.
Presidents and VPs ARE given total and complete discretion to do whatever they want with classified docs.
That includes giving permanent copies to themselves if they want.

The other laws, like over NARA and PRA, are to ensure FOIA also gets copies.
But those laws have nothing to do with personal copies.

But Biden ALSO has classified docs back from when he was in congress, which is totally illegal.
Politicians are not able to get security clearances so can not legally have classified docs unless given to them by a president of VP.

VPs do not have that authority, Simp.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Former presidents retain total ownership of all the classified docs created during their administration.

No they don't.

National Security Information is owned by the US Government, hence FPOTUS#45 being subject to a Federal Subpoena for their return, a search warrant to take them back, and criminal charges for willful retention.

WW

 

[kyzr]

View attachment 900595
Sorry my friend, it's really not. The PRA of 1978 is very clear on who owes Presidential Records (and it ain't the ex-President).
Nor does it provide a shield under the Espionage Act (and associated obstruction).
The Judicial Watches lawsuit failed because (a) Clinton's tapes were personal for writing memoirs after leaving office, (b) it asked the NARA to try to force personal records be turned over.
The Justice department wasn't seizing personal records, they were seizing US Government property and classified documents. Clintons memoir tapes have no being on FPOTUS#45's classified documents case. I know he keeps this belief alive to the uninformed, but its is not a winning "Trump Card" (pardon the pun) in court.

WW

1. You're probably right from the legal outcome, but..."personal records" are excluded from that law.

2. I think that there were personal records and attorney-client privileged papers mixed in and I seem to recall discussing a "special master" to look thru everything and sort the papers out? That didn't happen for some reason?

Appeals Court Scraps Special Master Review in Trump Documents Case (Published 2022)

The panel’s decision removed a major obstacle to the Justice Department’s investigation into Mr. Trump’s handling of sensitive government documents.

www.nytimes.com

3. All Trump is looking for are legal issues to appeal and push the trials back beyond the November election.

 

[WorldWatcher]

2. I think that there were personal records and attorney-client privileged papers mixed in and I seem to recall discussing a "special master" to look thru everything and sort the paper out? That didn't happen for some reason?

Appeals Court Scraps Special Master Review in Trump Documents Case (Published 2022)

The panel’s decision removed a major obstacle to the Justice Department’s investigation into Mr. Trump’s handling of sensitive government documents.

www.nytimes.com

Which has nothing to do with FPOTUS#45's charged under the Espionage Act.

You know that FPOTUS#45 LOST to the US Government on the Special Master appeal right?

WW

 

[Not That Guy]

Laws only apply to non democrat politicians.

If your a democrat politician, the law literally does not apply to you.