Zone1 Another question to ponder.

[Quantrill]

Lol true dat

And, consider this. Many like to say the Christian shouldn't be in politics. Separation of church and state they say. But note the similarity of these events.

1.) The Flood of Noah.

2.) The destruction of the Canaanites and giving Israel the land.

3.) The destruction of the American Indians and giving the land to the Christian Europeans.

The political aspect is important for God's people to live. God deems it so in these three examples. Christians should not ignore the politics. The unbelievers want us to, so they can get there man in there.

Thus, immediately following the Flood, God instituted 'human government. (Gen. 9:5)

Quantrill

 

[BULLDOG]

Perhaps try to use the analogy of seeing events as being a conversation between God and humanity. Through free will, God does not control humanity's part of the conversation.

I'm not sure that is accurate. An all knowing god would know exactly what would happen from the beginning. By necessity, it could be no more than a prewritten script. I suppose it might be considered just a conversation if you dropped the omnipotent claim. That omnipotent thing makes free will a moot point.

Are you willing to accept that the god of the Bible isn't omnipotent after all, and has no idea what anybody might do next?

 

[Hafar1014]

I'm not sure that is accurate. An all knowing god would know exactly what would happen from the beginning. By necessity, it could be no more than a prewritten script. I suppose it might be considered just a conversation if you dropped the omnipotent claim. That omnipotent thing makes free will a moot point.

Are you willing to accept that the god of the Bible isn't omnipotent after all, and has no idea what anybody might do next?

Actually it is. Keep in mind this is an allegory.
Genesis explains free will Adam was allowed to disobey God. God did not know what the outcome would be.
God is omnipotent described by the word Elohim.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm not sure that is accurate. An all knowing god would know exactly what would happen from the beginning. By necessity, it could be no more than a prewritten script. I suppose it might be considered just a conversation if you dropped the omnipotent claim. That omnipotent thing makes free will a moot point.

Are you willing to accept that the god of the Bible isn't omnipotent after all, and has no idea what anybody might do next?

The definition of 'omnipotent' is all there is to know at the time it is knowable. Why the objection?

 

[Hafar1014]

The definition of 'omnipotent' is all there is to know at the time it is knowable. Why the objection?

Because when God taught Adam morals by him eating the fruit from the tree he did not know if Adam would confess after he was told not to eat the fruit. He was expected to eat it all along that was the plan.
God doesnt want humans to be like ants or bees. He wanted Adam to choose to come to him.
This is called the trial for mans freedom. To be free we must have free will and morals
Thats why there is no original sin or fall of man.

 

[SweetSue92]

So what greater power imposed that requirement, and why would they do it? Omnipotent means you make things work the way you want them to work, doesn't it?

God cannot change His immutable characteristics. He is perfectly: Holy, merciful, loving, all-knowing, all-present and just. To be any less than that would make him not-God.

I'm gonna guess you want Him to do something loving, like just forgive everyone.

But that violates His own quality of being perfectly just. To put it another way: do we just forgive everyone because prison is "mean"? (and by forgive I mean ignore their crimes).

So extending the above metaphor: He acts as perfect Judge, we are ALL of us sinners save Jesus Christ. He sends His Son to take the punishment for the sin we committed. Therefore justice is served, as someone paid the price. And lovingness is served, and God allows all who believe (who accept the substitution) to be with Him in Heaven.

 

[Hafar1014]

God cannot change His immutable characteristics. He is perfectly: Holy, merciful, loving, all-knowing, all-present and just. To be any less than that would make him not-God.

I'm gonna guess you want Him to do something loving, like just forgive everyone.

But that violates His own quality of being perfectly just. To put it another way: do we just forgive everyone because prison is "mean"? (and by forgive I mean ignore their crimes).

So extending the above metaphor: He acts as perfect Judge, we are ALL of us sinners save Jesus Christ. He sends His Son to take the punishment for the sin we committed. Therefore justice is served, as someone paid the price. And lovingness is served, and God allows all who believe (who accept the substitution) to be with Him in Heaven.

There is no original sin in Genesis

 

[BULLDOG]

Actually it is. Keep in mind this is an allegory.
Genesis explains free will Adam was allowed to disobey God. God did not know what the outcome would be.
God is omnipotent described by the word Elohim.

So god isn't omnipotent after all? The knows all, sees all claim is just bullshit?

Which brings us back to the question of which is allegory, and which is an actual depiction of events. Was the crucifixion allegory or an actual event? How can you tell?
How do you differentiate between the two? If two believers disagree on which is which, who would go to hell for following false doctrine?

So many questions So few answers.

 

[BULLDOG]

The definition of 'omnipotent' is all there is to know at the time it is knowable. Why the objection?

Where did you get that definition? I can't find any source that defines omnipotent that way.

 

[BULLDOG]

God cannot change His immutable characteristics. He is perfectly: Holy, merciful, loving, all-knowing, all-present and just. To be any less than that would make him not-God.

I'm gonna guess you want Him to do something loving, like just forgive everyone.

But that violates His own quality of being perfectly just. To put it another way: do we just forgive everyone because prison is "mean"? (and by forgive I mean ignore their crimes).

So extending the above metaphor: He acts as perfect Judge, we are ALL of us sinners save Jesus Christ. He sends His Son to take the punishment for the sin we committed. Therefore justice is served, as someone paid the price. And lovingness is served, and God allows all who believe (who accept the substitution) to be with Him in Heaven.

That's not really the point, is if? You said he is all knowing. He would have had to know specifically which of his creations would not meet his standards and would suffer as a result. He had pre knowledge. they were destined for their fate. Them being able to change their outcome would mean god didn't know everything.

 

[Quantrill]

I'm not sure that is accurate. An all knowing god would know exactly what would happen from the beginning. By necessity, it could be no more than a prewritten script. I suppose it might be considered just a conversation if you dropped the omnipotent claim. That omnipotent thing makes free will a moot point.

Are you willing to accept that the god of the Bible isn't omnipotent after all, and has no idea what anybody might do next?

No, God is omnipotent. And, Omniscient.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Actually it is. Keep in mind this is an allegory.
Genesis explains free will Adam was allowed to disobey God. God did not know what the outcome would be.
God is omnipotent described by the word Elohim.

No, that is just your bullshit.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Because when God taught Adam morals by him eating the fruit from the tree he did not know if Adam would confess after he was told not to eat the fruit. He was expected to eat it all along that was the plan.
God doesnt want humans to be like ants or bees. He wanted Adam to choose to come to him.
This is called the trial for mans freedom. To be free we must have free will and morals
Thats why there is no original sin or fall of man.

More bullshit.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Where did you get that definition? I can't find any source that defines omnipotent that way.

(Jeremiah 32:17) (Acts 15:18)

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

That's not really the point, is if? You said he is all knowing. He would have had to know specifically which of his creations would not meet his standards and would suffer as a result. He had pre knowledge. they were destined for their fate. Them being able to change their outcome would mean god didn't know everything.

God is all knowing. Omniscient.

Of course He knows who will reject Him. And yes, they were destined for their fate.

No, God knew they wouldn't change. That doesn't mean God didn't know everything. The opportunity is there, but God knows who will take it.

Now what?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

There is no original sin in Genesis

More bullshit.

Quantrill

 

[Meriweather]

Where did you get that definition? I can't find any source that defines omnipotent that way.

True. Actually I defined omniscient, but omnipotent is defined the same way--having all the power that it is possible to have. Otherwise we run into that question, If God is all powerful, can he create a rock that not even he can lift?

 

[Meriweather]

Because when God taught Adam morals by him eating the fruit from the tree he did not know if Adam would confess after he was told not to eat the fruit. He was expected to eat it all along that was the plan.
God doesnt want humans to be like ants or bees. He wanted Adam to choose to come to him.
This is called the trial for mans freedom. To be free we must have free will and morals
Thats why there is no original sin or fall of man.

Yet you continually duck the question of whether there is--or ever has been--sin in this world. Do you believe it is possible for mankind to do something wrong (sin)?

 

[BULLDOG]

No, God is omnipotent. And, Omniscient.

Quantrill

Well, make up your mind. If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he knows every outcome before it happens. That trashes the idea of free will. being able to have any effect on anything.

 

[BULLDOG]

(Jeremiah 32:17) (Acts 15:18)

Quantrill

nothing is too hard for you, except knowing what will happen next? You believe he created the universe, and numbered the hairs on each of our heads, but he has no idea what might happen next?