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- #21
Yes, I knew what I wrote. Show me where I responded to anything concerning Mormonism.
Quantrill
Zone1 The Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24-25)
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Yes, I knew what I wrote. Show me where I responded to anything concerning Mormonism.
Quantrill
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- #22
I have no idea what you're talking about.
This thread is about the Olivet Discourse. If you disagree with anything I said, by all means show me where I am wrong and I will address it.
Quantrill
Cougarbear
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Stop lying… 100% obvious what you meant. Trying to be sneaky.
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- #24
All you have to do is show me where I meant anything concerning Mormonism? In fact, show me the post I responded to said anything about Mormonism.
Quantrill
Cougarbear
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I did. Anti-Mormons claim we don’t believe their Bible. That we have another Bible, The Book of Mormon. Your statement meant exactly that. Admit it.
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- #26
No you didn't. I replied to post #(2). Go back and read it. The only church referenced there was the Roman Catholic Church. Not the Mormon Church. As far as I knew that was the Church he was speaking of. Then read my reply in post #(3).
So, again, I said nothing about the Mormon Church. Of course I disagree with the Mormon Church. But that is immaterial. It is not what I was addressing.
Quantrill
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- #27
continued from post #(18)
I left off at (Matt. 24:3). But I want to jump ahead to a verse to prove a certain point.
(Matt. 24:15) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"
That verse is found in (Dan. 9:27). "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consumation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
And Paul says of this same person and event, (2 Thess. 2:3-4) "...that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God."
The verse Christ spoke of, (Dan. 9:27), is proof that He is speaking of the end time event here, and not 70 A.D. (Daniel) is addressing the 7 year Tribulation, the final week of Israel's judgement. And in this verse he is specifcally addressing the middle of the week. "in the midst of the week" That is the 'Great Tribulation. The last 3 1/2 years. And that is the time Christ is speaking of in (Matt. 24:15)
My point being: When I pick back up in (Matt. 24:4) recognize that what is said pertains to the end time, the 7 year tribulation period.
Quantrill
I left off at (Matt. 24:3). But I want to jump ahead to a verse to prove a certain point.
(Matt. 24:15) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"
That verse is found in (Dan. 9:27). "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consumation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
And Paul says of this same person and event, (2 Thess. 2:3-4) "...that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God."
The verse Christ spoke of, (Dan. 9:27), is proof that He is speaking of the end time event here, and not 70 A.D. (Daniel) is addressing the 7 year Tribulation, the final week of Israel's judgement. And in this verse he is specifcally addressing the middle of the week. "in the midst of the week" That is the 'Great Tribulation. The last 3 1/2 years. And that is the time Christ is speaking of in (Matt. 24:15)
My point being: When I pick back up in (Matt. 24:4) recognize that what is said pertains to the end time, the 7 year tribulation period.
Quantrill
Cougarbear
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There is but one holy place, the House of the Lord (Temple) Yep, we have hundreds around the world now.
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- #29
continued from post #(27)
Remember that here in (Matt. 24-25) Christ is talking to His people, His disciples, believing Jews. And whether He is speaking of the End Time Tribulation period or 70 A.D., He is speaking to believing Jews in that time.
An outline of (Matt. 24:4-31) is helpful here. It is the 7 year Tribulation period, culminating in Christs 2nd Coming.
1.) Seven year Tribulation or the end of the age. (Matt. 24:4-28)
2.) First 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:4-14) Also called 'the beginning of sorrows'. (24:8)
3.) Mid-point of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:15-20) Compare to (Dan. 9:27) 'in the midst of the week'.
4.) Last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:21-28) Also called 'The Great Tribulation' (24:21)
5.) The Return of Jesus Christ. (Matt. 24:29-31) Said to be 'immediately after the tribulation' (24:29)
One other time reference is given concerning Christ's response to the disciples questions. But it is not (Matthew) that gives it. It is (Luke). It is found in (Luke 21:12-24). And it begins with "But before all these". And it is here in these verses where we find the believing Jews in the early Church in Jerusalem and then the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
Quantrill
Remember that here in (Matt. 24-25) Christ is talking to His people, His disciples, believing Jews. And whether He is speaking of the End Time Tribulation period or 70 A.D., He is speaking to believing Jews in that time.
An outline of (Matt. 24:4-31) is helpful here. It is the 7 year Tribulation period, culminating in Christs 2nd Coming.
1.) Seven year Tribulation or the end of the age. (Matt. 24:4-28)
2.) First 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:4-14) Also called 'the beginning of sorrows'. (24:8)
3.) Mid-point of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:15-20) Compare to (Dan. 9:27) 'in the midst of the week'.
4.) Last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. (Matt. 24:21-28) Also called 'The Great Tribulation' (24:21)
5.) The Return of Jesus Christ. (Matt. 24:29-31) Said to be 'immediately after the tribulation' (24:29)
One other time reference is given concerning Christ's response to the disciples questions. But it is not (Matthew) that gives it. It is (Luke). It is found in (Luke 21:12-24). And it begins with "But before all these". And it is here in these verses where we find the believing Jews in the early Church in Jerusalem and then the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
Quantrill
Cougarbear
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Based on Conformation Bias, one can see both as an understanding. Many prophecies have this issue. Because of the fact we have Prophets in our Church, we know that Luke was showing both the destruction of the temple time period and the last days. That's what Prophets do. They answer confusing questions if the Lord wants us to know. Amos 3:7, "The Lord reveals his secrets only to his servants, the prophets."
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continued from post #(29)
Since (Luke) is the only one to provide the information concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which is answer to the disciples first question, 'when shall these things be', I will start with (Luke's) account.
(Luke) begins, like (Matthew) and (Mark), speaking of things concerning the 'End Time Tribulation'. Compare (Luke 21:8-11) with (Matt. 24:4-8) and (Mark 13:5-8). These are the beginning of sorrows. (Matt. 24:8)
(Luke) then says, "But before all these, they shall persecute you..." (Luke 21:12) So (Luke) now will speak of those 1st century believing Jews who have trusted Christ and the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. How do we know it speaks of that time? Because that is the time addressed by the disciples question. 'When shall these things be?' Which was asked concerning the destruction of the Temple.
(Luke 21:12-19) "...they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake"
One has only to read the Book of (Acts) to see the fulfillment of these. One example: (Acts 4:1-8) "...And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day...And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders and scribes...gathered together at Jerusalem. And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? Then Peter filled with the Holy Ghost, said...by the name of Jesus Christ..."
(Luke 21:16-19) "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But, there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."
Jesus had just said, 'some of you shall they cause to be put to death'. Then he says, 'there shall not an hair of your head perish'. Some believe that Jesus is speaking spiritually, and though you may be killed, you never die. Which is certainly true for the believer, and nothing wrong with that view, but I'm not sure that is what Christ is saying here.
Next, in (Luke 21:20-24) we are in 70 A.D.
Quantrill
Since (Luke) is the only one to provide the information concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which is answer to the disciples first question, 'when shall these things be', I will start with (Luke's) account.
(Luke) begins, like (Matthew) and (Mark), speaking of things concerning the 'End Time Tribulation'. Compare (Luke 21:8-11) with (Matt. 24:4-8) and (Mark 13:5-8). These are the beginning of sorrows. (Matt. 24:8)
(Luke) then says, "But before all these, they shall persecute you..." (Luke 21:12) So (Luke) now will speak of those 1st century believing Jews who have trusted Christ and the time leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. How do we know it speaks of that time? Because that is the time addressed by the disciples question. 'When shall these things be?' Which was asked concerning the destruction of the Temple.
(Luke 21:12-19) "...they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake"
One has only to read the Book of (Acts) to see the fulfillment of these. One example: (Acts 4:1-8) "...And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day...And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders and scribes...gathered together at Jerusalem. And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? Then Peter filled with the Holy Ghost, said...by the name of Jesus Christ..."
(Luke 21:16-19) "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But, there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."
Jesus had just said, 'some of you shall they cause to be put to death'. Then he says, 'there shall not an hair of your head perish'. Some believe that Jesus is speaking spiritually, and though you may be killed, you never die. Which is certainly true for the believer, and nothing wrong with that view, but I'm not sure that is what Christ is saying here.
Next, in (Luke 21:20-24) we are in 70 A.D.
Quantrill
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- #32
(Luke 21:20-21) "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into."
Remember what (Matthew) said and how his description differed. (Matt. 24:15-16) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains."
The one common thing here is the destruction of Jerusalem. But (Luke) is talking about 70 A.D. and (Matthew) is talking about the End Time Tribulation. Jesus in (Luke) is warning those Jewish believers to watch for when Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. And when you see it, get the heck out of there. But how in the world are they going to get out of there once they see the city surrounded? For it is surrounded.
I give a quote from a very old book I have. (Many Infallible Proofs, Arthur T. Pierson, D.D, Fleming H. Revell Company, 1886, p. 66-67) "What a strange signal for flight, when the hosts were already cutting off every escape! And yet this was Christ's token to his faithful followers that desolation was nigh, imminent. They should yet have chance to flee, if done with haste; there would be opportunity, but it would be short.
"Hear again the Jewish annalist: 'Cestius Gallus, after beginning siege, mysteriously withdrew, and without any reason in the world, and many embraced this opportunity to depart; a great multitude fled to the mountains.' At this crisis, as we learn from church historians of the first century, all the followers of Christ took refuge in the mountains of Pella, beyond the Jordan, and there is no record of one single Christian perishing in the siege! As soon as the armies returned, the city was surrounded by a wall, and all hope of flight was now cut off."
The destruction of Jerusalem and the horrors done to the Jews was terrible in 70 A.D. The Jewish annalist that Pierson is speaking of is Josephus. You can find it in his works under the title 'Wars Of The Jews'. If any decide to read it, just remember what Jesus said in (Matt. 24:21) concerning the yet future destruction of Jerusalem. "For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time no, nor ever shall be."
It will be worse still. The believing Jews in Jerusalem had better keep a watchful eye. Once they see the Temple being rebuilt, better start planning an escape route. And when you see the abomination standing in the holy place, better get out of Dodge.
Quantrill
Remember what (Matthew) said and how his description differed. (Matt. 24:15-16) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains."
The one common thing here is the destruction of Jerusalem. But (Luke) is talking about 70 A.D. and (Matthew) is talking about the End Time Tribulation. Jesus in (Luke) is warning those Jewish believers to watch for when Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. And when you see it, get the heck out of there. But how in the world are they going to get out of there once they see the city surrounded? For it is surrounded.
I give a quote from a very old book I have. (Many Infallible Proofs, Arthur T. Pierson, D.D, Fleming H. Revell Company, 1886, p. 66-67) "What a strange signal for flight, when the hosts were already cutting off every escape! And yet this was Christ's token to his faithful followers that desolation was nigh, imminent. They should yet have chance to flee, if done with haste; there would be opportunity, but it would be short.
"Hear again the Jewish annalist: 'Cestius Gallus, after beginning siege, mysteriously withdrew, and without any reason in the world, and many embraced this opportunity to depart; a great multitude fled to the mountains.' At this crisis, as we learn from church historians of the first century, all the followers of Christ took refuge in the mountains of Pella, beyond the Jordan, and there is no record of one single Christian perishing in the siege! As soon as the armies returned, the city was surrounded by a wall, and all hope of flight was now cut off."
The destruction of Jerusalem and the horrors done to the Jews was terrible in 70 A.D. The Jewish annalist that Pierson is speaking of is Josephus. You can find it in his works under the title 'Wars Of The Jews'. If any decide to read it, just remember what Jesus said in (Matt. 24:21) concerning the yet future destruction of Jerusalem. "For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time no, nor ever shall be."
It will be worse still. The believing Jews in Jerusalem had better keep a watchful eye. Once they see the Temple being rebuilt, better start planning an escape route. And when you see the abomination standing in the holy place, better get out of Dodge.
Quantrill
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- #33
(Luke 21:22) "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."
The act of God in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was an act of vengeance on His part. Remember what Jesus said in (Matt. 23:35-36) "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
I quote again (Many Infallible Proofs, Arthur T. Pierson, D.D, Fleming H. Revell Co., 1886, p. 63) "The valleys that wound about the city were a natural trench; the hills that round it rose were a natural embankment. Yet Titus, against the counsel of his chief men, actually built a wall and trench five miles in circumference around the doomed capital."
"As Titus saw the dead thrown over the walls into the valleys, by hundreds and by thousands, he lifted his hands to heaven to protest before God that all this was not his doing. Josephus reckons that 1,30,000 perished and 97,000 were sold into slavery. (Pierson, p. 64)
"Titus said; We have certainly had God for our helper in this war. He has ejected the Jews out of these strongholds; for what could men or machines do toward throwing down such fortifications as these!" (Pierson, p. 65)
(Matt. 24:2) "...I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
(Luke 21:24) "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:..."
This parenthetical introduced by (Luke) alone is (Luke 21:12-24). It speaks to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. it ends in saying, "...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." And the times of the Gentiles is still going on.
But note in (Matt 24), concerning the destruction of Jerusalem during the End Time Tribulation, immediately at the end, Christ returns. (Matt. 24:29-30).
Quantrill
The act of God in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was an act of vengeance on His part. Remember what Jesus said in (Matt. 23:35-36) "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."
I quote again (Many Infallible Proofs, Arthur T. Pierson, D.D, Fleming H. Revell Co., 1886, p. 63) "The valleys that wound about the city were a natural trench; the hills that round it rose were a natural embankment. Yet Titus, against the counsel of his chief men, actually built a wall and trench five miles in circumference around the doomed capital."
"As Titus saw the dead thrown over the walls into the valleys, by hundreds and by thousands, he lifted his hands to heaven to protest before God that all this was not his doing. Josephus reckons that 1,30,000 perished and 97,000 were sold into slavery. (Pierson, p. 64)
"Titus said; We have certainly had God for our helper in this war. He has ejected the Jews out of these strongholds; for what could men or machines do toward throwing down such fortifications as these!" (Pierson, p. 65)
(Matt. 24:2) "...I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
(Luke 21:24) "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:..."
This parenthetical introduced by (Luke) alone is (Luke 21:12-24). It speaks to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. it ends in saying, "...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." And the times of the Gentiles is still going on.
But note in (Matt 24), concerning the destruction of Jerusalem during the End Time Tribulation, immediately at the end, Christ returns. (Matt. 24:29-30).
Quantrill
DennisPTate
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Near death experiencers are being shown glimpses of the future that I believe fit perfectly with every prophecy in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the minor prophets as well as by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.
Our Creator of course knew that in our time period medical technology would increase and people would be brought back after flatlining so this is a major reason as to why we would not be able to understand the Bible perfectly until these "latter days."
"The anger of the Lord shall not return, until He has executed and till He has performed the thoughts of His heart; in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly." [Jeremiah 23:20]
[Howard Storm] :
The Future of the United States
Howard Storm recorded how his light being friends told him, in 1985, that the Cold War would soon end, because, “God is changing the hearts of people to love around the world.”
Storm states, “Since the time in 1985 when I was told these things about the future the Cold War ended with little bloodshed due to the hearts of people being unwilling to tolerate oppressive regimes.”
Storm described what the light beings told him concerning the way things will be on Earth in about 2185.
He asked the light beings the question, “Will the United States be the leader of the world in this change?”
The light beings replied, “The United States has been given the opportunity to be the teacher for the world, but much is expected of those to whom much has been given. The United States has been given more of everything than any country in the history of the world and it has failed to be generous with the gifts.
“If the United States continues to exploit the rest of the world by greedily consuming the world’s resources, the United States will have God’s blessing withdrawn.
“Your country will collapse economically which will result in civil chaos. Because of the greedy nature of the people, you will have people killing people for a cup of gasoline.
“The world will watch in horror as your country is obliterated by strife. The rest of the world will not intervene because they have been victims of your exploitation. They will welcome the annihilation of such selfish people.
“The United States must change immediately and become the teachers of goodness and generosity to the rest of the world.
“Today the United States is the primary merchant of war and the culture of violence that you export to the world. This will come to an end because you have the seeds of your own destruction within you. Either you will destroy yourselves or God will bring it to an end if there isn’t a change.”
Storm states, “I don’t know if the richest country in the history of the world is doomed to lose God’s blessing or if the people of the United States will become the moral light of the world. How long will God allow the injustice to continue? The future lies in the choices we make right now. God is intervening in direct ways in human events. May God’s will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven!”
In his 2000 book, “My Descent into Death,” Storm described possible timelines of a future Golden Age and a possible future of immense destruction. According to Storm, we currently live in a time when humanity is caught up in materialism, greed, and selfishness. Environmental degradation is worsening. Nations are aggressive and militaristic. Religion is more institutional than spiritual. We’re at a critical turning point. Humanity is choosing between two paths: destruction or transformation. If humanity fails to change, from between the 2030s to the 2060s, there will be worldwide environmental disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, storms), the power grid will be sabotaged, a global financial collapse will occur, wars will break out around the world (no nuclear war), and social chaos will be widespread. A utopian future can occur between the 2100s and the 2200s – but only if humanity changes course now. This utopia will be a “Golden Age” when all war, poverty, and injustice are eliminated. The Earth will be healed and sustainably managed. Governments will be based on wisdom and compassion, not power. Spiritual beings will interact more openly with humanity. Life will be guided by divine love, not fear. But if destruction occurs before this utopia, there will be a recovery period between the 2060s and the 2100s when communities will emerge based on cooperation, love, and service. People will return to spiritual values. Technology will be reintroduced gradually, used ethically and sustainably. Storm was told that the future is not fixed. Our choices now will determine whether we face destruction or a spiritual rebirth.
Howard Storm - Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife
Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife profiles Howard Storm . Did you enjoy reading this post, we have more!near-death.com
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- #35
continued from post #(33)
So it was in (Luke 21) that the question, 'when shall these things be' was answered. And I return now back to (Matt. 24-25) to deal with the question 'what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world'. 'World' being 'aion' or 'age'.
The disciples knew their Old Testament and knew the prophecies concerning Messiah's coming at the end of the age. And Jesus definitely made it all about the Tribulation when directing attention to (Dan. 9:27) in (Matt. 24:15). Which is the final 'week' the last 7 years of (Daniels) 490 year prophecy.
They are asking as believing Jews, not as Christians. They believe Jesus is the Christ. But now Jesus turned away from Israel due to their unbelief. Yet Jesus said, He would return when Israel could say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Matt. 23:39). So whenever that is must be the end of the age and when the Kingdom is set up in Jerusalem. Their questions show how much they must have discussed this amongst themselves.
And Jesus will answer them as believing Jews who receive the Messiah, the Christ. He is not answering them as the Church. To understand and believe that will be all important in interpreting (Matt. 24-25). Jesus is addressing the believing Jews, Israel, during the Tribulation. The Time of Jacobs Trouble.
(Jer. 30:3) "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah."
(Jer. 30:7) "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."
Quantrill
So it was in (Luke 21) that the question, 'when shall these things be' was answered. And I return now back to (Matt. 24-25) to deal with the question 'what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world'. 'World' being 'aion' or 'age'.
The disciples knew their Old Testament and knew the prophecies concerning Messiah's coming at the end of the age. And Jesus definitely made it all about the Tribulation when directing attention to (Dan. 9:27) in (Matt. 24:15). Which is the final 'week' the last 7 years of (Daniels) 490 year prophecy.
They are asking as believing Jews, not as Christians. They believe Jesus is the Christ. But now Jesus turned away from Israel due to their unbelief. Yet Jesus said, He would return when Israel could say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Matt. 23:39). So whenever that is must be the end of the age and when the Kingdom is set up in Jerusalem. Their questions show how much they must have discussed this amongst themselves.
And Jesus will answer them as believing Jews who receive the Messiah, the Christ. He is not answering them as the Church. To understand and believe that will be all important in interpreting (Matt. 24-25). Jesus is addressing the believing Jews, Israel, during the Tribulation. The Time of Jacobs Trouble.
(Jer. 30:3) "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah."
(Jer. 30:7) "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."
Quantrill
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- #36
In the outline I gave in post #(29), I stated that (Matt. 24:4-28) speaks to the Seven Year Tribulation period. And, (Matt. 24:4-14) speaks to the 1st 3 1/2 years of that period. Now the book of (Revelation) also deals with the Tribulation period. Not just that, but it does deal with it. And where it does, we should find similarities with it and the book of (Matthew)
(Matt. 24:4-5) "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
1st seal: (Rev. 6:2) "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Even today many hold that the one on the white horse is Jesus. It is not. It is a deceiver. He comes in peace with only a bow but no arrows. The peace he brings is a deception. This is he who (Daniel 8:25) says, "...he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many..."
(Matt. 24:6-7) "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet....For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom...."
2nd seal: (Rev. 6:4) "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
(Matt. 24:7) "...and there shall be famines, and pestilences...."
3rd seal: (Rev. 6:5-6) "...lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."
(Matt. 24:9-10) "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."
4th seal: (Rev. 6:8) "...behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Also in the 5th seal: "...I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God..."
(Matt. 24:12-13) "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
5th seal: (Rev. 6: 10-11) "....How long, O Lord...dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? yet for a little season, until their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Matt. 24:14) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come
6th seal: (Rev. 6:15-17) "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bond man, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Quantrill
(Matt. 24:4-5) "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
1st seal: (Rev. 6:2) "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Even today many hold that the one on the white horse is Jesus. It is not. It is a deceiver. He comes in peace with only a bow but no arrows. The peace he brings is a deception. This is he who (Daniel 8:25) says, "...he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many..."
(Matt. 24:6-7) "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet....For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom...."
2nd seal: (Rev. 6:4) "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
(Matt. 24:7) "...and there shall be famines, and pestilences...."
3rd seal: (Rev. 6:5-6) "...lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."
(Matt. 24:9-10) "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."
4th seal: (Rev. 6:8) "...behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Also in the 5th seal: "...I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God..."
(Matt. 24:12-13) "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
5th seal: (Rev. 6: 10-11) "....How long, O Lord...dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? yet for a little season, until their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(Matt. 24:14) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come
6th seal: (Rev. 6:15-17) "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bond man, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Quantrill
- Thread starter
- #37
In the previous post in (Matt. 24:14) it was said, 'the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations'. This is taking place during the 7 year Tribulation period. Understand, this is not the preaching of Grace which is given the Church to preach. This is the preaching of the 'Kingdom'. What kingdom? As I have already said, the Kingdom of God upon the earth implemented through the nation of Israel.
The same preaching that John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and His disciples came preaching at the beginning of His ministry. 'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand'.
This begs the question: why has the gospel changed? To Israel, it was, 'repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand'. To the Church, it is 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'.
Answer: it has changed because Israel rejected the Kingdom when she rejected and killed her Messiah. Thus God is calling out a new body of believers, the Church, made up of both Jew and Gentile believers, but predominately Gentile. Israel as a nation has been set aside while God calls out this new body of believer's, the Church.
But in (Matt. 24:14) we see the gospel of the Kingdom being preached once again. What does that mean? It means God has completed the number of people into the Church and is now working again with the nation of Israel. Which means the Church is no longer present on the earth. Which means she has been raptured out of the earth. And thus the Gospel of the Kingdom is that which is preached. It means the judicial blindness that God ordered upon the nation Israel has been lifted so that His people that are in the nation of Israel will see and hear this gospel and believe. (Rom. 11:25)
But this gospel of the Kingdom is also preached to all nations so that Gentiles can be saved also, as was always the case even when Israel was under the Law.
God always prepared salvation for both Jew and Gentile. But the Gentile must come into that salvation program that God has created using Israel as the chosen nation. Thus the gospel of the Kingdom will be preached to all nations before the end comes. (Matt. 24:14)
Different gospels. Different bodies of believers, Israel, and the Church, and the Tribulation saints.
These distinciton need to be kept in mind.
Quantrill
The same preaching that John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and His disciples came preaching at the beginning of His ministry. 'Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand'.
This begs the question: why has the gospel changed? To Israel, it was, 'repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand'. To the Church, it is 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'.
Answer: it has changed because Israel rejected the Kingdom when she rejected and killed her Messiah. Thus God is calling out a new body of believers, the Church, made up of both Jew and Gentile believers, but predominately Gentile. Israel as a nation has been set aside while God calls out this new body of believer's, the Church.
But in (Matt. 24:14) we see the gospel of the Kingdom being preached once again. What does that mean? It means God has completed the number of people into the Church and is now working again with the nation of Israel. Which means the Church is no longer present on the earth. Which means she has been raptured out of the earth. And thus the Gospel of the Kingdom is that which is preached. It means the judicial blindness that God ordered upon the nation Israel has been lifted so that His people that are in the nation of Israel will see and hear this gospel and believe. (Rom. 11:25)
But this gospel of the Kingdom is also preached to all nations so that Gentiles can be saved also, as was always the case even when Israel was under the Law.
God always prepared salvation for both Jew and Gentile. But the Gentile must come into that salvation program that God has created using Israel as the chosen nation. Thus the gospel of the Kingdom will be preached to all nations before the end comes. (Matt. 24:14)
Different gospels. Different bodies of believers, Israel, and the Church, and the Tribulation saints.
These distinciton need to be kept in mind.
Quantrill
- Thread starter
- #38
We move now to the midpoint of the 7 year Tribulation period. (Matt. 24:15) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). Jesus brings specific attention to (Daniel 9:27), which says:
(Dan. 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The time element is all important here. understanding the midpoint of the week, one can work back to the beginning of the week, and can work forward to the end of the week. If one knows how long the week lasts. I have already stated that the Tribulation is the 7 year week. Which means when you see the abomination of desolation stand in the rebuilt Temple, 3 1/2 years earlier was the beginning of the week. Which means 3 1/2 years later from the abomination of desolation standing in the Temple, is the end of the week.
The Seventy Weeks prophecy is found in (Daniel 9:1-27). Jesus considered it important, and so should we. Note (Dan. 9:1) "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;"
(Daniel) immediately begins with a specific time designation, 'first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus', which was 538 B.C. which was about 68 years after Babylon captured Jerusalem. And Daniel knew the time of Jerusalem's capture and his captivity which was about 606 B.C. So, 606-538=68 years.
(Daniel 9:2) "In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."
Note first, this great man of God, believed the Old Testament, learned, and studied and understood from the Old Testament, considered the Old Testament, existent at that time, as the Word of God. Therefore, anyone can have any opinion they like about the Old Testament, but if you don't believe it is the Word of God, then you don't believe as Daniel the prophet did.
And, it is interesting to me, that Jesus said, "whoso readeth, let him understand". (Matt. 24:15) And Daniel said, "I Daniel understand by books" (Daniel 9:2)
Quantrill
(Dan. 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The time element is all important here. understanding the midpoint of the week, one can work back to the beginning of the week, and can work forward to the end of the week. If one knows how long the week lasts. I have already stated that the Tribulation is the 7 year week. Which means when you see the abomination of desolation stand in the rebuilt Temple, 3 1/2 years earlier was the beginning of the week. Which means 3 1/2 years later from the abomination of desolation standing in the Temple, is the end of the week.
The Seventy Weeks prophecy is found in (Daniel 9:1-27). Jesus considered it important, and so should we. Note (Dan. 9:1) "In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;"
(Daniel) immediately begins with a specific time designation, 'first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus', which was 538 B.C. which was about 68 years after Babylon captured Jerusalem. And Daniel knew the time of Jerusalem's capture and his captivity which was about 606 B.C. So, 606-538=68 years.
(Daniel 9:2) "In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."
Note first, this great man of God, believed the Old Testament, learned, and studied and understood from the Old Testament, considered the Old Testament, existent at that time, as the Word of God. Therefore, anyone can have any opinion they like about the Old Testament, but if you don't believe it is the Word of God, then you don't believe as Daniel the prophet did.
And, it is interesting to me, that Jesus said, "whoso readeth, let him understand". (Matt. 24:15) And Daniel said, "I Daniel understand by books" (Daniel 9:2)
Quantrill
- Thread starter
- #39
The seventy years (Daniel) found in the book of (Jeremiah) are found in two places.
(Jeremiah 25:11-12) "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon..."
(Jeremiah) would later write a letter to all the Jews taken in the first captivity by the Babylonians. (Jer. 29:4-10) "Thus saith the LORD...unto all that are carried away captives...Build ye houses...plant gardens...Take ye wives...begat sons and daughters...that ye may be increased...seek the peace of the city...Let not your prophets...deceive you...I have not sent them...For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you...causing you to return to this place."
Seventy years was promised by God. And, as showed earlier, they were already in the 68th year. This created a problem with (Daniel). For God had already showed (Daniel) twice, that four world empires would pass before Israel is reestablished as God's nation on earth at the coming of Messiah and the Kingdom of God. See (Dan. 2:31-44) and (Dan. 7:1-14) But they were only in the second empire, with two more to go, and only two years left. In other words, not enough time.
(Daniel) turned to God in prayer. No doubt remembering (Lev. 26:40-45) and (Deut. 30:1-10) which promises when Israel repents of her sins, confesses her sins before God, He will return to her. And thus (Dan. 9) begins with (Daniel's) great prayer of confession and repentance before God on Israel's behalf. (Dan. 9:3-19)
This caused God to send the angel Gabriel to (Daniel) to give him understanding of what will take place. (Dan. 9:20-23) "...even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly...And he informed me...I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding...for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Quantrill
(Jeremiah 25:11-12) "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon..."
(Jeremiah) would later write a letter to all the Jews taken in the first captivity by the Babylonians. (Jer. 29:4-10) "Thus saith the LORD...unto all that are carried away captives...Build ye houses...plant gardens...Take ye wives...begat sons and daughters...that ye may be increased...seek the peace of the city...Let not your prophets...deceive you...I have not sent them...For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you...causing you to return to this place."
Seventy years was promised by God. And, as showed earlier, they were already in the 68th year. This created a problem with (Daniel). For God had already showed (Daniel) twice, that four world empires would pass before Israel is reestablished as God's nation on earth at the coming of Messiah and the Kingdom of God. See (Dan. 2:31-44) and (Dan. 7:1-14) But they were only in the second empire, with two more to go, and only two years left. In other words, not enough time.
(Daniel) turned to God in prayer. No doubt remembering (Lev. 26:40-45) and (Deut. 30:1-10) which promises when Israel repents of her sins, confesses her sins before God, He will return to her. And thus (Dan. 9) begins with (Daniel's) great prayer of confession and repentance before God on Israel's behalf. (Dan. 9:3-19)
This caused God to send the angel Gabriel to (Daniel) to give him understanding of what will take place. (Dan. 9:20-23) "...even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly...And he informed me...I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding...for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Quantrill
- Thread starter
- #40
(Daniel 9:24) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city...."
Note first that Scripture is clear here. The Seventy Weeks are determined upon Daniel's people, the Jews, and upon the holy city, Jerusalem.
God said in (Jer. 29:10) "...after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place."
Has God changed His mind? Did He make a mistake and found out this would take longer? No, of course not. God will accomplish His promise of the seventy years as given in (Jer. 29:10). And He has.
See (Ezra 1:1-3) "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
"Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
"Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem."
So, God did not change his mind on anything. The 70 years were accomplished concerning the Babylonian captivity. The Jews could now return to Jerusalem.
But now further revelation is being given concerning the future of Israel. Remember, revelation from God is progressive. The revelation of God to Moses was not the end of it. There would be much more to be found in the Old Testament writings and prophets, over time. And (Daniel) was at the place where more was now given.
So Gabriel reveals to (Daniel) that 70 weeks are now determined for Israel. (Dan. 9:24) Now how do we determine the correct method of interpreting what God means by a 'week'? Could be 70 X 7 days to equal 490 days. I have suggested already that the week spoken of is a week of years, or 7years. Thus 70 weeks would be 70 weeks X 7 to equal 490 years. Is there Scripture support for that? I believe there is.
Remember Kadesh-barnea where Israel refused to go into the land God brought them to due to the evil report from the spies? (Num. 14:1-10) This grieved God sorely. And God said 'you don't want to go in, fine, you won't. you will wander in the wilderness till all of your generation dies.' See (Num. 14:26-33)
Then note (Num. 14:34) "After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."
This does not mean a day for a year is always the prophetic calendar method of determining the time. But here it did. Why, because 'days' was what was involved. Forty days they searched out the land. So God says a year for each day. Forty years of judgement.
But in (Daniel 9:2) 'years' are what is involved, 70 years. Not days. Thus God reveals to (Daniel) that it won't be just 70 years, but it will be 70 weeks of years. (Dan. 9:24) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
Seventy sevens or 490 years.
Quantrill
Note first that Scripture is clear here. The Seventy Weeks are determined upon Daniel's people, the Jews, and upon the holy city, Jerusalem.
God said in (Jer. 29:10) "...after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place."
Has God changed His mind? Did He make a mistake and found out this would take longer? No, of course not. God will accomplish His promise of the seventy years as given in (Jer. 29:10). And He has.
See (Ezra 1:1-3) "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
"Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
"Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem."
So, God did not change his mind on anything. The 70 years were accomplished concerning the Babylonian captivity. The Jews could now return to Jerusalem.
But now further revelation is being given concerning the future of Israel. Remember, revelation from God is progressive. The revelation of God to Moses was not the end of it. There would be much more to be found in the Old Testament writings and prophets, over time. And (Daniel) was at the place where more was now given.
So Gabriel reveals to (Daniel) that 70 weeks are now determined for Israel. (Dan. 9:24) Now how do we determine the correct method of interpreting what God means by a 'week'? Could be 70 X 7 days to equal 490 days. I have suggested already that the week spoken of is a week of years, or 7years. Thus 70 weeks would be 70 weeks X 7 to equal 490 years. Is there Scripture support for that? I believe there is.
Remember Kadesh-barnea where Israel refused to go into the land God brought them to due to the evil report from the spies? (Num. 14:1-10) This grieved God sorely. And God said 'you don't want to go in, fine, you won't. you will wander in the wilderness till all of your generation dies.' See (Num. 14:26-33)
Then note (Num. 14:34) "After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."
This does not mean a day for a year is always the prophetic calendar method of determining the time. But here it did. Why, because 'days' was what was involved. Forty days they searched out the land. So God says a year for each day. Forty years of judgement.
But in (Daniel 9:2) 'years' are what is involved, 70 years. Not days. Thus God reveals to (Daniel) that it won't be just 70 years, but it will be 70 weeks of years. (Dan. 9:24) "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
Seventy sevens or 490 years.
Quantrill
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