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On the other hand... The bottom line is that America has done some horrible things in it's history. Proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.
On the other hand... The bottom line is that America has done some horrible things in it's history. Proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.
You need some new material. But, the obvious counter is that if those things were done in the name of secularism, humanism, atheism, theism or deism, it is perfectable acceptable. Which side best represents you?
No side represents me. I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. Anyone, be they secularist, humanist, atheist or whatever who wants to lord over others should under no circumstance be allowed to do so.
The aim of my contributions to this thread were to show that the whole idea of Christians seizing and wielding earthly political power is the exact opposite of what Jesus wanted or expected of His followers. Yes, Porter I read those links. They were wrong, If you agree with them, you're wrong, too.
You sound like a political opportunist that took a left turn to get here. Real Christians support the idea of LIBERTY. I don't know why you're here as your posts are nor related to the OP in any way, shape, fashion or form. If you weren't going to read the first post and access the links, you shouldn't have participated.
NOBODY supporting my position on this thread, including me, wants political power to dictate religion by way of government. We would like to have Freedom OF Religion... which you seem to oppose. But, that is not the subject of the OP. So, thanks for ignoring the first post and good luck out there.
I told you already I read your links, I totally disagreed with them. They never answered my question: "Where did Jesus command His followers to seize and control earthly political power?!!!!!"
All the scriptures I posted strongly suggested the opposite view, namely that Jesus never wanted Christians involved with the dirty business of worldly politics.
One more thing. Why did it take soooo long for Christians to come up with the idea of "Liberty"? Why wasn't it readily apparent to the emperor Theodosius when he made Christianity the only legal religion in the Empire? Were Christians back then second class Christians, who didn't deserve Liberty?
What point was that? This one?
I don't want any political process, no matter who's involved. So I can't be considered a bigot.It is fin of Christians to engage in the political process. Your desire for them not to, is your bigotry, not theirs.
Which God are we talking about? The signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestant Christians - almost to a man (IIRC.)
. Nice opinion. I see no need to refute that. Just a question though. How do you make the leap from your opinion that Biblical values being present in society means America was founded as a Christian Nation?
My opinion is that non-Christian Deist optimism and ideas derived from Enlightenment philosophers molded much of the Founders such as Jefferson’s thought. .
There was a lot of input from a variety of sources, but the founders / framers at the behest of the people ended up with a constitutional Republic based on Christian principles.
.On the other hand... The bottom line is that America has done some horrible things in it's history. Proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.
On the other hand... The bottom line is that America has done some horrible things in it's history. Proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.
You need some new material. But, the obvious counter is that if those things were done in the name of secularism, humanism, atheism, theism or deism, it is perfectable acceptable. Which side best represents you?
No side represents me. I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. Anyone, be they secularist, humanist, atheist or whatever who wants to lord over others should under no circumstance be allowed to do so.
The aim of my contributions to this thread were to show that the whole idea of Christians seizing and wielding earthly political power is the exact opposite of what Jesus wanted or expected of His followers. Yes, Porter I read those links. They were wrong, If you agree with them, you're wrong, too.
You sound like a political opportunist that took a left turn to get here. Real Christians support the idea of LIBERTY. I don't know why you're here as your posts are nor related to the OP in any way, shape, fashion or form. If you weren't going to read the first post and access the links, you shouldn't have participated.
NOBODY supporting my position on this thread, including me, wants political power to dictate religion by way of government. We would like to have Freedom OF Religion... which you seem to oppose. But, that is not the subject of the OP. So, thanks for ignoring the first post and good luck out there.
I told you already I read your links, I totally disagreed with them. They never answered my question: "Where did Jesus command His followers to seize and control earthly political power?!!!!!"
All the scriptures I posted strongly suggested the opposite view, namely that Jesus never wanted Christians involved with the dirty business of worldly politics.
One more thing. Why did it take soooo long for Christians to come up with the idea of "Liberty"? Why wasn't it readily apparent to the emperor Theodosius when he made Christianity the only legal religion in the Empire? Were Christians back then second class Christians, who didn't deserve Liberty?
I can't help you with straw man arguments. If you'd like to discuss the OP, great. If not, such arguments will have to be addressed some other time. IF we ever get past this thread, I will do one on Liberty.
IF we ever get past this thread, I will do one on Liberty.
So what is the point of all this? What kind of reaction are you hoping for from us non Christians?
.On the other hand... The bottom line is that America has done some horrible things in it's history. Proof positive that it was founded as a Christian Nation.
You need some new material. But, the obvious counter is that if those things were done in the name of secularism, humanism, atheism, theism or deism, it is perfectable acceptable. Which side best represents you?
No side represents me. I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. Anyone, be they secularist, humanist, atheist or whatever who wants to lord over others should under no circumstance be allowed to do so.
The aim of my contributions to this thread were to show that the whole idea of Christians seizing and wielding earthly political power is the exact opposite of what Jesus wanted or expected of His followers. Yes, Porter I read those links. They were wrong, If you agree with them, you're wrong, too.
You sound like a political opportunist that took a left turn to get here. Real Christians support the idea of LIBERTY. I don't know why you're here as your posts are nor related to the OP in any way, shape, fashion or form. If you weren't going to read the first post and access the links, you shouldn't have participated.
NOBODY supporting my position on this thread, including me, wants political power to dictate religion by way of government. We would like to have Freedom OF Religion... which you seem to oppose. But, that is not the subject of the OP. So, thanks for ignoring the first post and good luck out there.
I told you already I read your links, I totally disagreed with them. They never answered my question: "Where did Jesus command His followers to seize and control earthly political power?!!!!!"
All the scriptures I posted strongly suggested the opposite view, namely that Jesus never wanted Christians involved with the dirty business of worldly politics.
One more thing. Why did it take soooo long for Christians to come up with the idea of "Liberty"? Why wasn't it readily apparent to the emperor Theodosius when he made Christianity the only legal religion in the Empire? Were Christians back then second class Christians, who didn't deserve Liberty?
I can't help you with straw man arguments. If you'd like to discuss the OP, great. If not, such arguments will have to be addressed some other time. IF we ever get past this thread, I will do one on Liberty.
IF we ever get past this thread, I will do one on Liberty.
hopefully with at least a modicum of evidence without it being supposedly buried in some distant post that then only the depraved would recognize as having merit.
good luck -
..No side represents me. I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. Anyone, be they secularist, humanist, atheist or whatever who wants to lord over others should under no circumstance be allowed to do so.
The aim of my contributions to this thread were to show that the whole idea of Christians seizing and wielding earthly political power is the exact opposite of what Jesus wanted or expected of His followers. Yes, Porter I read those links. They were wrong, If you agree with them, you're wrong, too.
You sound like a political opportunist that took a left turn to get here. Real Christians support the idea of LIBERTY. I don't know why you're here as your posts are nor related to the OP in any way, shape, fashion or form. If you weren't going to read the first post and access the links, you shouldn't have participated.
NOBODY supporting my position on this thread, including me, wants political power to dictate religion by way of government. We would like to have Freedom OF Religion... which you seem to oppose. But, that is not the subject of the OP. So, thanks for ignoring the first post and good luck out there.
I told you already I read your links, I totally disagreed with them. They never answered my question: "Where did Jesus command His followers to seize and control earthly political power?!!!!!"
All the scriptures I posted strongly suggested the opposite view, namely that Jesus never wanted Christians involved with the dirty business of worldly politics.
One more thing. Why did it take soooo long for Christians to come up with the idea of "Liberty"? Why wasn't it readily apparent to the emperor Theodosius when he made Christianity the only legal religion in the Empire? Were Christians back then second class Christians, who didn't deserve Liberty?
I can't help you with straw man arguments. If you'd like to discuss the OP, great. If not, such arguments will have to be addressed some other time. IF we ever get past this thread, I will do one on Liberty.
IF we ever get past this thread, I will do one on Liberty.
hopefully with at least a modicum of evidence without it being supposedly buried in some distant post that then only the depraved would recognize as having merit.
good luck -
More bizarre words from the cryptic one. Try English next time.
More bizarre words from the cryptic one. Try English next time.
#1124 Protestant Christians A-L-M-O-S-T to a man. Post #1117.Which God are we talking about? The signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestant Christians - almost to a man (IIRC.)
This goes back to when PORTER ROCKWELL wrote: “Politics is nothing more than religion in action. Our sense of right and wrong are all predicated on moral values and we got from biblical precepts.”
And I replied in Post #189. Nice opinion. I see no need to refute that. Just a question though. How do you make the leap from your opinion that Biblical values being present in society means America was founded as a Christian Nation?
My opinion is that non-Christian Deist optimism and ideas derived from Enlightenment philosophers molded much of the Founders such as Jefferson’s thought. .
Porter Rockwell did not disagree that a lot of non-Christian ideas and principles influenced the minds of our founding fathers in post #191There was a lot of input from a variety of sources, but the founders / framers at the behest of the people ended up with a constitutional Republic based on Christian principles.
So now we are asked to accept that non-Biblical influences did not change the Declaration’s writers perception of God to any thing different from centuries old PROTESTANT dogma about God when a monarch was God’s Representative on earth.
From "The Constitution of no Authority", Lysander Spooner (1870)Inasmuch as the Constitution was never signed, nor agreed to, by anybody, as a contract, and therefore never bound anybody, and is now binding upon nobody; and is, moreover, such an one as no people can ever hereafter be expected to consent to, except as they may be forced to do so at the point of the bayonet, it is perhaps of no importance what its true legal meaning, as a contract, is. Nevertheless, the writer thinks it proper to say that, in his opinion, the Constitution is no such instrument as it has generally been assumed to be; but that by false interpretations, and naked usurpations, the government has been made in practice a very widely, and almost wholly, different thing from what the Constitution itself purports to authorize. He has heretofore written much, and could write much more, to prove that such is the truth. But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain—that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.
If you had read this thread, I proved, unequivocally, that Jefferson was a Christian.
On an on he's gone about trivial matters that would not change the outcome of this thread.
Which God are we talking about? The signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestant Christians - almost to a man (IIRC.)
Who wrote the rules saying what one must believe or disbelieve IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD (WHICH IS IN THE BIBLE)?????
Jefferson was a Christian - just not a mainstream Christian. This is from the source you quoted, but omitted the link:
"He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher."
Constitution? Here's the final word about that:
From "The Constitution of no Authority", Lysander Spooner (1870)Inasmuch as the Constitution was never signed, nor agreed to, by anybody, as a contract, and therefore never bound anybody, and is now binding upon nobody; and is, moreover, such an one as no people can ever hereafter be expected to consent to, except as they may be forced to do so at the point of the bayonet, it is perhaps of no importance what its true legal meaning, as a contract, is. Nevertheless, the writer thinks it proper to say that, in his opinion, the Constitution is no such instrument as it has generally been assumed to be; but that by false interpretations, and naked usurpations, the government has been made in practice a very widely, and almost wholly, different thing from what the Constitution itself purports to authorize. He has heretofore written much, and could write much more, to prove that such is the truth. But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain—that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.
#1132 Reference to God in the Declaration of Independence is DEIST not Protestant Christian.
#188If you had read this thread, I proved, unequivocally, that Jefferson was a Christian.
FOR THE RECORD: Porter Rockwell defines being a Christian to include a man who twice in his entire life wrote these four words.... “I am a Christian” ....but both times written over a decade apart, adding both times either ‘only in the sense’ and ‘very different from’ the 99.9 % of all the people who actually practice a religion and believe things according to Catholicism or all the variations of Protestant Christianity.
This is not some small trivial matter.
#956.On an on he's gone about trivial matters that would not change the outcome of this thread.
This issue arose again today when Porter Rockwell describes the signers of the Declaration as Protestant Christians - almost to a man in Post #1117.Which God are we talking about? The signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestant Christians - almost to a man (IIRC.)
Jefferson of course was a signer. Jefferson did not ever in his adult life write or say that he believed that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.
However that is the one requirement that Porter Rockwell says must be believed to be a Christian. It is right here in post #538Who wrote the rules saying what one must believe or disbelieve IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD (WHICH IS IN THE BIBLE)?????
Jefferson did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. In his own words:
To William Short Monticello, August 4, 1820 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond
“That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore.
FOR THE RECORD: Porter Rockwell appears to accept that Jefferson could be classified as a Christian Deist
#87Jefferson was a Christian - just not a mainstream Christian. This is from the source you quoted, but omitted the link:
"He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher."
Jefferson was not a Protestant Christian. He did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. Porter Rockwell has not mentioned the fact that Jefferson was the primary writer of the D of I.
Here is a different view of what the reference to. Nature’s God meant to the writer.
I’m not seeing the Protestant Christian God being referenced in the Declaration of Independence. I’m not the only one not seeing it.
- The only direct reference to God in the Declaration of Independence comes in the first paragraph, in which Thomas Jefferson and his fellow drafters of that document--including Benjamin Franklin and John Adams--invoke the "laws of nature and of nature's god." (The absence of capitalization was the way Jefferson wrote it, though the final parchment capitalizes all four nouns.) The phrase "nature's god" reflected Jefferson's deism--his rather vague Enlightenment-era belief, which he shared with Franklin, in a Creator whose divine handiwork is evident in the wonders of nature. Deists like Jefferson did not believe in a personal God who interceded directly in the daily affairs of mankind. Thomas Jefferson: God Of Our Fathers
#1124 Protestant Christians A-L-M-O-S-T to a man. Post #1117.Which God are we talking about? The signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestant Christians - almost to a man (IIRC.)
This goes back to when PORTER ROCKWELL wrote: “Politics is nothing more than religion in action. Our sense of right and wrong are all predicated on moral values and we got from biblical precepts.”
And I replied in Post #189. Nice opinion. I see no need to refute that. Just a question though. How do you make the leap from your opinion that Biblical values being present in society means America was founded as a Christian Nation?
My opinion is that non-Christian Deist optimism and ideas derived from Enlightenment philosophers molded much of the Founders such as Jefferson’s thought. .
Porter Rockwell did not disagree that a lot of non-Christian ideas and principles influenced the minds of our founding fathers in post #191There was a lot of input from a variety of sources, but the founders / framers at the behest of the people ended up with a constitutional Republic based on Christian principles.
So now we are asked to accept that non-Biblical influences did not change the Declaration’s writers perception of God to any thing different from centuries old PROTESTANT dogma about God when a monarch was God’s Representative on earth.
IF your dumb ass were a student of history, Jefferson made NO statement about his views as they were private. But, what he signed his name to left no doubt... unless you want to call him a liar.
If you had read this thread, I proved, unequivocally, that Jefferson was a Christian. I am not going to argue what has been established as fact..
