America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

AND THEN THERE WERE NONE

We started this thread almost a month ago on 13 January 2020. The premise for this thread is that America was FOUNDED as a Christian nation. Although I started this thread, one poster, NOTFOOLEDBYW, decided he would co-opt, derail and run this thread. He failed to get any support. If you are dedicated to finding the truth, every objection that NOTFOOLEDBYW has been refuted. He may have posted a lot of bluster, but he did not stop the truth.

While I never got to explain exactly what is meant by FOUNDED as a Christian nation, we got to expose the secularists, deists, humanists, atheists, and others who try to silence the truth and expose them for who and what they are.

America was founded as a Christian nation. Some consider the genesis of the founding as synonymous with the Declaration of Independence. That is inaccurate. Our nation had over 150 years of development behind it before the Declaration of Independence was penned. We had become our own people. And, America was, by and large, Christian. Culturally, the people were Christian. Of this there is no substantial denial. The men who signed their names to the Declaration of Independence, on the day they signed that document, acknowledged a Christian God. This is beyond dispute.

Each of the signatories signed that document "with a firm reliance on Divine Providence" which was synonymous with a Christian God. As evidence of this, I go back to my original post (Post # 1.) John Winthrop, a Protestant, gave a sermon in the language of those times. Winthrop's sermon begins with "GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence" and Winthrop uses He and His without any references to Jesus Christ. On the very first page of the sermon, this sentence jumps out: "From hence it appears plainly that no man is made more honorable than another or more wealthy etc., out of any particular and singular respect to himself, but for the glory of his Creator and the common good of the creature..." and by page 2 of Winthrop's sermon we find this: "Honor the Lord with thy riches," etc. --- All men being thus (by divine providence)" showing, unequivocally that when the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence were fully cognizant that when they pledged their Lives, Fortunes and sacred Honor, it was before a Christian God. Divine Providence is an acknowledgment of the Trinity.

While these men did not create a theocracy, the first contribution that they made was a commitment to Liberty. They understood Liberty from a Christian concept. The fact that so many meetings took place in homes, churches, and in barns for years prior to the Declaration of Independence and had a difficult time separating from the rule of King George, especially reconciling Independence with the admonitions in Romans 13 fill many pages of historical texts.

In the end, the founders adopted the common law the colonists and founders came here with. Its basis is Christianity. When we pass a statute, we then interpret that statute based upon a line of reasoning. That reasoning is predicated upon how we handled previous cases. Since we had no starting point on legal reasoning - we used the reasoning of the English law... which was based on a Christian perspective. Consequently, our concept of right and wrong; good and bad; evil versus acceptable stem from a Christian perspective. So, the first contribution of the Christians to our form of government is the commitment to Liberty and the second contribution would be the common law.

But, due to the ego of one man, our incessant troll, with a holier than thou attitude, (AND NOT ONE POSTER SUPPORTED HIS ERRONEOUS OPINIONS) we were prevented from having this discussion. While there may be no more new material being discussed on this thread, I will continue to oppose this childish troll because he CAN be defeated. He cannot silence the truth forever.

.

You asked for a direct quote that I provided. You did not say that the quote had to be approved as authentic by any specific individual. You are a liar, a fraud, an idiot, and the stupidest individual ever to post on USM

^^^ that's a bit of a stretch, rockwell -

w - has not prevented anyone else from posting in your dubiously titled thread.

what is the difference between multi-posts and overlengthy posts ... * lets try, clarity.

Damn sockpuppet. Save it W for someone that don't know who and what you are.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AND THEN THERE WERE NONE

We started this thread almost a month ago on 13 January 2020. The premise for this thread is that America was FOUNDED as a Christian nation. Although I started this thread, one poster, NOTFOOLEDBYW, decided he would co-opt, derail and run this thread. He failed to get any support. If you are dedicated to finding the truth, every objection that NOTFOOLEDBYW has been refuted. He may have posted a lot of bluster, but he did not stop the truth.

While I never got to explain exactly what is meant by FOUNDED as a Christian nation, we got to expose the secularists, deists, humanists, atheists, and others who try to silence the truth and expose them for who and what they are.

America was founded as a Christian nation. Some consider the genesis of the founding as synonymous with the Declaration of Independence. That is inaccurate. Our nation had over 150 years of development behind it before the Declaration of Independence was penned. We had become our own people. And, America was, by and large, Christian. Culturally, the people were Christian. Of this there is no substantial denial. The men who signed their names to the Declaration of Independence, on the day they signed that document, acknowledged a Christian God. This is beyond dispute.

Each of the signatories signed that document "with a firm reliance on Divine Providence" which was synonymous with a Christian God. As evidence of this, I go back to my original post (Post # 1.) John Winthrop, a Protestant, gave a sermon in the language of those times. Winthrop's sermon begins with "GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence" and Winthrop uses He and His without any references to Jesus Christ. On the very first page of the sermon, this sentence jumps out: "From hence it appears plainly that no man is made more honorable than another or more wealthy etc., out of any particular and singular respect to himself, but for the glory of his Creator and the common good of the creature..." and by page 2 of Winthrop's sermon we find this: "Honor the Lord with thy riches," etc. --- All men being thus (by divine providence)" showing, unequivocally that when the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence were fully cognizant that when they pledged their Lives, Fortunes and sacred Honor, it was before a Christian God. Divine Providence is an acknowledgment of the Trinity.

While these men did not create a theocracy, the first contribution that they made was a commitment to Liberty. They understood Liberty from a Christian concept. The fact that so many meetings took place in homes, churches, and in barns for years prior to the Declaration of Independence and had a difficult time separating from the rule of King George, especially reconciling Independence with the admonitions in Romans 13 fill many pages of historical texts.

In the end, the founders adopted the common law the colonists and founders came here with. Its basis is Christianity. When we pass a statute, we then interpret that statute based upon a line of reasoning. That reasoning is predicated upon how we handled previous cases. Since we had no starting point on legal reasoning - we used the reasoning of the English law... which was based on a Christian perspective. Consequently, our concept of right and wrong; good and bad; evil versus acceptable stem from a Christian perspective. So, the first contribution of the Christians to our form of government is the commitment to Liberty and the second contribution would be the common law.

But, due to the ego of one man, our incessant troll, with a holier than thou attitude, (AND NOT ONE POSTER SUPPORTED HIS ERRONEOUS OPINIONS) we were prevented from having this discussion. While there may be no more new material being discussed on this thread, I will continue to oppose this childish troll because he CAN be defeated. He cannot silence the truth forever.

Addendum: The sockpuppet accounts are damnable. All one has to do is see WHEN the sockpuppet begins posting and what they were posting about. And, yes, the constant attempts to derail this thread and make this personal DID prevent a credible and civil discussion of the OP - (the first post) which has not been addressed. And if the board troll, under any of his assumed names, is posting off topic attacks every day, it detracts from the OP and discourages posters from addressing the real issue.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL 11 Feb 2020 Update

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1158 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 213 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018,1033, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1047, 1049, 1052, 1063, 1074, 1076, 1079, 1080, 1083, 1090, 1096, 1097, 1108, 1111, 1124, 1132, 1140, 1146, 1147, 1152, 1153, 1154

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019 - and I have not recorded the people who have disagreed with him past this point

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW more than 100 times personally. There are roughly 500 posts that have revolved around this one poster. TO DATE NOBODY IS SUPPORTING HIS CRAP AND HE'S EVEN SUNK SO LOW AS TO HAVE SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[Porter Rockwell]

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813

Confirmed: John Adams - Wikiquote

The principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence have their roots in biblical precepts. Period. Liberty, as described in the Declaration of Independence, is a biblical concept.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1156

. I'm not reading your posts.

FOR THE RECORD.

My intended audience is not Porter Rockwell, it has been obvious for some time that Porter Rockwell does read the post of those he incessantly calls a liar.

I will continue to defend the entire truth and facts and relevant opinion and conclusions that I have brought to refute the ridiculous claim was founded as a Christian nation

See Post #1140.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1166.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813

Confirmed: John Adams - Wikiquote

Kudos to Porter Rockwell for finding a direct quote from A reliable source. The next step is to actually comprehend what the direct quote teaches us about Jefferson’s beliefs.

Porter Rockwell’s latest un-linked link does not contradict any part of the overall summary of Jefferson’s lifetime of rejection of the Christian Church, Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin.

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

An Article Courtesy Of The Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia. Click For More.

Refer to Post #1140 it’s exactly as I have said:

“Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10. Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

Jefferson is not referring to Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin when he wrote “will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."


Refer again to post #1140 FOR THE RECORD: All readers now have a choice. Who is to be believed on the issue of whether Thomas Jefferson was a Christian or not?

(A) Porter Rockwell

(B) The finest Jefferson historians at MONTICELLO Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

“JEFFERSON AND CHRISTIANITY

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10 In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”


“In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

“In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#1156

. I'm not reading your posts.

FOR THE RECORD.

My intended audience is not Porter Rockwell, it has been obvious for some time that Porter Rockwell does read the post of those he incessantly calls a liar.

I will continue to defend the entire truth and facts and relevant opinion and conclusions that I have brought to refute the ridiculous claim was founded as a Christian nation

See Post #1140.

You have defended NOTHING. You have not presented any fact that was not adequately refuted by posters other than yours truly. Thanks to you, there is no other audience. You ran off the audience with your remark about "bullshit" with your first posting. Your arrogance destroyed the entire thread. Your lies have been exposed for what they are. You are a liar and a troll.

"America was founded on three documents: The Declaration of Independence; The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783, and the Constitution. These documents give conclusive proof that America is a Christian nation. One does not need a law degree or a degree in history to grasp this truth. It is obvious to anyone who does not have an agenda. Let us review the documents and show this proof...."

Proof That America Was Founded As A Christian Nation – International Cops for Christ

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#1166.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Washington D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813

Confirmed: John Adams - Wikiquote

Kudos to Porter Rockwell for finding a direct quote from A reliable source. The next step is to actually comprehend what the direct quote teaches us about Jefferson’s beliefs.

Porter Rockwell’s latest un-linked link does not contradict any part of the overall summary of Jefferson’s lifetime of rejection of the Christian Church, Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin.

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

An Article Courtesy Of The Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia. Click For More.

Refer to Post #1140 it’s exactly as I have said:

“Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10. Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

Jefferson is not referring to Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin when he wrote “will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."


Refer again to post #1140 FOR THE RECORD: All readers now have a choice. Who is to be believed on the issue of whether Thomas Jefferson was a Christian or not?

(A) Porter Rockwell

(B) The finest Jefferson historians at MONTICELLO Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

“JEFFERSON AND CHRISTIANITY

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10 In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”


“In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

“In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

You are an absolute, complete, utter, dishonest dumbass. THOMAS JEFFERSON WAS NOT A DAMN THING FOR 100 PERCENT OF HIS LIFE. HE IDENTIFIED AS DIFFERENT THINGS AT DIFFERENT TIMES. At ONE point, Jefferson said, unequivocally, he was Christian.

Everything that our resident troll has alleged has proven to be wrong. Thomas Jefferson was not the only person to sign the Declaration of Independence, but on the day he did, he clearly, unequivocally, and irrefutably identified with Protestant Christians have relied on Divine Providence and signing his name to a document that is beyond question. Divine Providence refers to the Divinity. CASE CLOSED.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

America Was Founded As A Christian Nation By Christians That Believed That The Bible Is The Word Of God

There is more fodder for those who may be on the fence

 

[Porter Rockwell]

"The United States was founded by Christians, for Christians, and on the foundation of Christianity. Of this there can be no historical doubt.

This truth is reflected in our First Amendment, which, according to historian and long-serving associate Supreme Court justice Joseph Story, was not about religion in general but specifically about the religion of Christianity.

It was designed specifically to protect the free exercise of the Christian faith in the new nation, and to prevent competition among the various Christian denominations. It did this by prohibiting Congress from picking one Christian denomination and making it the official church of the United States.

States, on the other hand, were free to establish Christian denominations in their individual states, and somewhere between six and ten of the original 13 states did so. (The exact number depends on how strict the definition of "establishment" is.)

As Story points out, the Founders were not thinking of any of the world's other religions when they enacted the First Amendment. They were dealing exclusively with Christianity.

As Story writes, "The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government." (Emphasis mine throughout.)

According to Merriam-Webster, "countenance" means "to accept, support, or approve of (something), to extend approval or toleration to." So the purpose of the First Amendment was quite pointedly not to "accept, support, or approve of" Islam or Judaism or atheism, but to deal only with the expression of the Christian faith in the new nation."

Quoted from: The U.S. was founded as a Christian nation - here's more proof

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION

In closing this thread out, I might as well make the points I was going to make. The consummate troll that destroyed ALL his credibility and pretended he was qualified to judge me wants to now be proven wrong in ways that he had not intended. So, we can summarize over 1000 posts in about thirty six paragraphs. Every time the troll posts, we will start over until all three segments appear and then we can repeat them each and every day until he finds someone that might tolerate him. He wants someone to validate him; I'm satisfied with the facts collected here. They simply need to be put into a summation.

In the course of this thread we found a lot of dishonest people, uneducated people, and many partisan hacks on the Internet. The misinformation was much more prevalent than the correct information. The correct information was spread out, so let us begin once more:

The founders did not want a theocracy. They DID want a constitutional Republic dedicated to the principles of Liberty. The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The Congress of the United States is NOT the several states. Congress is not the legislatures in the states. Congress is not the direct voice of the citizenry. The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

There was no need to create a theocracy in America because the people rejected the idea of a King. They wanted religious Liberty, but at the same time, they did not want to alter their identity, as a people and they could not fathom a nation without their God. Modern researchers look at the founding documents and the language of the day, falsely proclaiming that there are no references to our Christian identity therein. Really? Let us start with the Declaration of Independence: We have a reference to a "Nature's God," and a "Creator" in the first two paragraphs. That document ends by talking about the "Supreme Judge of the world" AND then the signatories relied on a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence." I would submit to you that, based on the language used in those times, that this is in reference to a Christian God. This is confirmed by the language used in John Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which was referenced in the first post on this thread. Therein, Winthrop used the following language:

"GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence
...glory of his Creator
... Law of Nature"

These are used in the first two pages of the sermon and not one, single, solitary reference to Jesus Christ. Our forefathers did not lace every sentence with HIS holy name just to wear their religion on their sleeves. We check the sermons of the time period and find that the language used in the Declaration of Independence was consistent with the language used to express a belief in a Christian God. AND there is NO WAY you avoid that reliance on "Divine Providence." That is a reference to the divinity. Period.

The next founding document associated with the founding is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. That treaty ended the American Revolutionary War. The signatories to that legal document are bound thereby. Let us see some of its language:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc."

And it ends

"Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY"

It is the argument of uneducated men that our forefathers had such an aversion to Christianity that they wanted a non-religious people. Yet these alleged secularists, deists, theists, atheists, and other alleged non-believers signed their names to legal documents acknowledging a Christian God.

Part 2 of this series of posts to follow

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1172 reply to #1170.

"The United States was founded by Christians, for Christians, and on the foundation of Christianity. Of this there can be no historical doubt.

Our third President and one of the most eminent of all the Founding Fathers has left us the opposite of modern day Christian Nationalist propaganda that Porter Rockwell has posted above.



Jefferson’s Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1777) s

• ......within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo (sic), and infidel of every denomination.
  
  https://www.history.org/Media/flash/Jefferson/religiousfreedom.ht
  
  Proclaiming religious liberty as a natural right, Jefferson’s Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1777) set in motion legislation that became the most sweeping guarantee of freedom of conscience in history — in separating church and state. It was the Virginia Statute, appropriately called "a hinge between ages," that paved the way for the first amendment to the Constitution. Harvard historian Bernard Bailyn calls The Virginia Statute the "most important document in American History bar none." Pope John Paul calls freedom of conscience "the foundation for all other human rights."
  
  In 1802 Jefferson called for a "wall of separation between church and state," because the clergy was plotting with the Federalists to establish a particular form of Christianity throughout the U.S. "In opposition to their schemes," Jefferson writes, "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
  
  In his autobiography Jefferson elaborates on an earlier battle:
  
  The bill for establishing religious freedom ... met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed [1786]; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo (sic), and infidel of every denomination.

More on this later:

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION II

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

There is no established religion, but the values of Christians are very well represented in that document. The most glaring example is the ":Sunday exception rule" :

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a law, in like Manner as if he had signed it . . . " Article I Section 7

Bring this one up and you get a long harangue about the debates that centered on this with all kinds of theories parading as logic, but just because Masons, secularists, and even American Indian influences were present in the Constitutional Convention, the ONLY thing that matters is the final product.

And, again, ALL of the signatories signed their name to a legal document (the Constitution) acknowledging a Christian God:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth..."

Admittedly, the intent would be murky except for the fact that the presidents who were founders appointed people to the United States Supreme Court before the American Bar Association was founded in 1875. Sooo... those Justices were were more in sync with the president than they are even today.

John Jay, the FIRST Justice ever appointed (1789) had this to say:

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Oct. 12, 1816, in a statement, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, America's God and Country, William Federer, p.318

Source: Quotation by John Jay

There will be many more entries until I finish and put this all in one spot on this thread. The troll be damned.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION

In closing this thread out, I might as well make the points I was going to make. The consummate troll that destroyed ALL his credibility and pretended he was qualified to judge me wants to now be proven wrong in ways that he had not intended. So, we can summarize over 1000 posts in about thirty six paragraphs. Every time the troll posts, we will start over until all three segments appear and then we can repeat them each and every day until he finds someone that might tolerate him. He wants someone to validate him; I'm satisfied with the facts collected here. They simply need to be put into a summation.

In the course of this thread we found a lot of dishonest people, uneducated people, and many partisan hacks on the Internet. The misinformation was much more prevalent than the correct information. The correct information was spread out, so let us begin once more:

The founders did not want a theocracy. They DID want a constitutional Republic dedicated to the principles of Liberty. The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The Congress of the United States is NOT the several states. Congress is not the legislatures in the states. Congress is not the direct voice of the citizenry. The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

There was no need to create a theocracy in America because the people rejected the idea of a King. They wanted religious Liberty, but at the same time, they did not want to alter their identity, as a people and they could not fathom a nation without their God. Modern researchers look at the founding documents and the language of the day, falsely proclaiming that there are no references to our Christian identity therein. Really? Let us start with the Declaration of Independence: We have a reference to a "Nature's God," and a "Creator" in the first two paragraphs. That document ends by talking about the "Supreme Judge of the world" AND then the signatories relied on a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence." I would submit to you that, based on the language used in those times, that this is in reference to a Christian God. This is confirmed by the language used in John Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which was referenced in the first post on this thread. Therein, Winthrop used the following language:

"GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence
...glory of his Creator
... Law of Nature"

These are used in the first two pages of the sermon and not one, single, solitary reference to Jesus Christ. Our forefathers did not lace every sentence with HIS holy name just to wear their religion on their sleeves. We check the sermons of the time period and find that the language used in the Declaration of Independence was consistent with the language used to express a belief in a Christian God. AND there is NO WAY you avoid that reliance on "Divine Providence." That is a reference to the divinity. Period.

The next founding document associated with the founding is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. That treaty ended the American Revolutionary War. The signatories to that legal document are bound thereby. Let us see some of its language:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc."

And it ends

"Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY"

It is the argument of uneducated men that our forefathers had such an aversion to Christianity that they wanted a non-religious people. Yet these alleged secularists, deists, theists, atheists, and other alleged non-believers signed their names to legal documents acknowledging a Christian God.

Part 2 of this series of posts to follow

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION II

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

There is no established religion, but the values of Christians are very well represented in that document. The most glaring example is the ":Sunday exception rule" :

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a law, in like Manner as if he had signed it . . . " Article I Section 7

Bring this one up and you get a long harangue about the debates that centered on this with all kinds of theories parading as logic, but just because Masons, secularists, and even American Indian influences were present in the Constitutional Convention, the ONLY thing that matters is the final product.

And, again, ALL of the signatories signed their name to a legal document (the Constitution) acknowledging a Christian God:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth..."

Admittedly, the intent would be murky except for the fact that the presidents who were founders appointed people to the United States Supreme Court before the American Bar Association was founded in 1875. Sooo... those Justices were were more in sync with the president than they are even today.

John Jay, the FIRST Justice ever appointed (1789) had this to say:

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Oct. 12, 1816, in a statement, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, America's God and Country, William Federer, p.318

Source: Quotation by John Jay

There will be many more entries until I finish and put this all in one spot on this thread. The troll be damned.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1176 reply to #1170. “the Catholic and the Protestant, the Calvinist and the Arminian, the Jew and the Infidel, may sit down at the common table of the national councils, “. Judge Joseph Story

So did Porter Rockwell’s source lie?

#1170.

This truth is reflected in our First Amendment, which, according to historian and long-serving associate Supreme Court justice Joseph Story, was not about religion in general but specifically about the religion of Christianity.

#. a later in the same reading Judge Joseph Story says the First Amendment was about a Christians, but also the CATHOLICS, the JEWS And the INFIDELS

• “Thus, the whole power over the subject of religion is left exclusively to the state government, to be acted upon according to their own sense of justice, and the state constitutions; and the Catholic and the Protestant, the Calvinist and the Arminian, the Jew and the Infidel, may sit down at the common table of the national councils, without any inquisition into their faith, or mode of worship.[32]. Joseph Story - Wikipedia

Judge Story sounds a lot like Jefferson writing about passing Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1777) when some lawmakers tried to insert “Jesus Christ” into the bill. The insertion failed. And according to Jefferson it v was a victory for Religious Freedom. He wrote;

• The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo (sic), and infidel of every denomination https://www.history.org/Media/flash/Jefferson/religiousfreedom.ht

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.

I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done...

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION

In closing this thread out, I might as well make the points I was going to make. The consummate troll that destroyed ALL his credibility and pretended he was qualified to judge me wants to now be proven wrong in ways that he had not intended. So, we can summarize over 1000 posts in about thirty six paragraphs. Every time the troll posts, we will start over until all three segments appear and then we can repeat them each and every day until he finds someone that might tolerate him. He wants someone to validate him; I'm satisfied with the facts collected here. They simply need to be put into a summation.

In the course of this thread we found a lot of dishonest people, uneducated people, and many partisan hacks on the Internet. The misinformation was much more prevalent than the correct information. The correct information was spread out, so let us begin once more:

The founders did not want a theocracy. They DID want a constitutional Republic dedicated to the principles of Liberty. The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The Congress of the United States is NOT the several states. Congress is not the legislatures in the states. Congress is not the direct voice of the citizenry. The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

There was no need to create a theocracy in America because the people rejected the idea of a King. They wanted religious Liberty, but at the same time, they did not want to alter their identity, as a people and they could not fathom a nation without their God. Modern researchers look at the founding documents and the language of the day, falsely proclaiming that there are no references to our Christian identity therein. Really? Let us start with the Declaration of Independence: We have a reference to a "Nature's God," and a "Creator" in the first two paragraphs. That document ends by talking about the "Supreme Judge of the world" AND then the signatories relied on a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence." I would submit to you that, based on the language used in those times, that this is in reference to a Christian God. This is confirmed by the language used in John Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which was referenced in the first post on this thread. Therein, Winthrop used the following language:

"GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence
...glory of his Creator
... Law of Nature"

These are used in the first two pages of the sermon and not one, single, solitary reference to Jesus Christ. Our forefathers did not lace every sentence with HIS holy name just to wear their religion on their sleeves. We check the sermons of the time period and find that the language used in the Declaration of Independence was consistent with the language used to express a belief in a Christian God. AND there is NO WAY you avoid that reliance on "Divine Providence." That is a reference to the divinity. Period.

The next founding document associated with the founding is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. That treaty ended the American Revolutionary War. The signatories to that legal document are bound thereby. Let us see some of its language:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc."

And it ends

"Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY"

It is the argument of uneducated men that our forefathers had such an aversion to Christianity that they wanted a non-religious people. Yet these alleged secularists, deists, theists, atheists, and other alleged non-believers signed their names to legal documents acknowledging a Christian God.

Part 2 of this series of posts to follow

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION II

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

There is no established religion, but the values of Christians are very well represented in that document. The most glaring example is the ":Sunday exception rule" :

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a law, in like Manner as if he had signed it . . . " Article I Section 7

Bring this one up and you get a long harangue about the debates that centered on this with all kinds of theories parading as logic, but just because Masons, secularists, and even American Indian influences were present in the Constitutional Convention, the ONLY thing that matters is the final product.

And, again, ALL of the signatories signed their name to a legal document (the Constitution) acknowledging a Christian God:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth..."

Admittedly, the intent would be murky except for the fact that the presidents who were founders appointed people to the United States Supreme Court before the American Bar Association was founded in 1875. Sooo... those Justices were were more in sync with the president than they are even today.

John Jay, the FIRST Justice ever appointed (1789) had this to say:

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Oct. 12, 1816, in a statement, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, America's God and Country, William Federer, p.318

Source: Quotation by John Jay

There will be many more entries until I finish and put this all in one spot on this thread. The troll be damned.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.

I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.