Zone1 Should Christians get more physical in defending their religion?

[beautress]

So their martyrdom in those countries not physical, is the cross physical or just spiritual duty and faith?

As far as I know, Mortimer, Christian martyrs are with God, with the knowledge that God loves those who suffered in life for taking up the Cross for His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[DudleySmith]

With all due respect, that incident doesn't help your case, because if you're talking about what happened right before Jesus was arrested, when Peter cut off the official's ear, Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:50-54) Then he touched the guy's ear and healed him.

Self-defense is one thing, but I think what Mort is talking about (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) goes beyond self-defense.

Christians are not supposed to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9, Romans 12:17). We are commanded to love our enemies (Luke 6:27), do good to those who hate us (Luke 6:27), bless those who curse us (Luke 6:28), pray for those who mistreat us (Luke 6:28), and the list goes on.

In fact, there's a spiritual principle called "moving in the opposite spirit." It's very interesting, but that's a topic for a thread of its own.

Btw, I saw a couple posts where you had mentioned you're an atheist. If so, I can understand your point of view... but as was posted in post #5, our battle is not physical. It's a spiritual battle. And acting just like the world is the exact opposite of what we are told to do.

I don't need a 'case', I just need what the NT says itself, and that is that at least some of the Apostles carried swords, 3 of them for certain, and Peter was obviously one of them, and obviously skilled in its use. Swords aren't good for anything except as weapons, and obviously they were for self-defense in the case of the Apostles. If Christians hadn't defended themselves they would have been wiped out a long time ago and just be a footnote in history, not a major social revolution and movement.

Nowhere does the book say all Christians are to be martyrs, nor does it ban soldiers from being believers.

 

[alexa]

If that worked so well then how to explain why there aren't a couple of billion Jewish converts as a result of the Nazi death camps?

Most Christians and their churches stayed hidden and practiced in secret.

It was because the Christians did not deny their religion despite knowing they were going to face the lions if they did not that got more and more people to believe there really must be something very special in Christianity and eventually led to it being the state religion.

 

[DudleySmith]

It was because the Christians did not deny their religion despite knowing they were going to face the lions if they did not that got more and more people to believe there really must be something very special in Christianity and eventually led to it being the state religion.

Doesn't mean they all do that; Peter denied Jesus three times, was it? They did not all run through the streets demanding to be martyred. It was largely a secret underground church for hundreds of years in Rome and other places in the Empire and other states in the ME. Many of those who went to the coliseums were those already caught and arrested, for one, so denial wasn't going to get them anything anyway. Yes, they were brave in the arenas, but they weren't volunteers.

 

[cnm]

Christians stand nowadays for everything and if you stand for everything you stand for nothing.

You call yourself a Christian, right?

 

[DudleySmith]

you consider it a BAD thing that christians NO LONGER
kill people who "insult" their religion??? ..... or MURDER
people who refuse to adopt it?

Just because they don't copy Hasidic Jews isn't a reason to attack them.

 

[Ivan88]

Addressing the previous train of thoughts:
Before Christ, Edomite Etruscans of the Italian Peninsula had incorporated themselves into the Roman system. They were the ones who orchestrated the frame up of Christians by tricking the Christians into making themselves subject to being tortuously killed via propaganda that made Christians falsely believe that honoring the King or Emperor was idolatry. That is what led to their awful deaths.
Next: Christ said if one lacks a sword, sell your clothes if you have to, to buy one.
Revelation says the Patience of the Saints is that those who lead into captivity should be put in captivity and those who kill wrongly should be killed. Which is the Law since Moses at the very least.
One last thing:
USA arranged for the murder of Tsar Nicholas the National Officer of Russia and His family and caused the associated Communist Revolution. When the Heroic Christian Nation of Germany attempted to save Christian Russians from the murderous communists, Stupid, Deluded pseudo Christians of America supported going into billions of $'s of debt to save the Communists in Russia.
Then they supported murdering millions of Heroic Aryan Christian Israelite Germans of all ages and sex to save those murderous, torturing communists in Russia from those Heroic Christian German People who were in the process of saving Aryan, Christian Israel Russians. Even after murdering so many Germans, USA rounded up 7 million Christian Russians who had fled to Germany to escape the Communist butchers, and forcibly sent them to death in Stalin's gulags.
On top of all these terrible anti-Christ deeds, USA atom bombed the 2 biggest Christian cities in East Asia, and most self professed Christians still make up excuses to doing that. Since that time America has continuously been the concubine slave slut of anti-Christs.
Thus America has proven itself to be an anti-Christ nation, and continues to do so to this day, despite all appearances to the contrary.

 

[onefour1]

Romans 12:19
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

[irosie91]

Just because they don't copy Hasidic Jews isn't a reason to attack them.

true, Hasidic jews and jews in general do not attack
"them" I was once mistaken for a Hasidic jew---the
egg missed my head

 

[irosie91]

With all due respect, that incident doesn't help your case, because if you're talking about what happened right before Jesus was arrested, when Peter cut off the official's ear, Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:50-54) Then he touched the guy's ear and healed him.

Self-defense is one thing, but I think what Mort is talking about (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) goes beyond self-defense.

Christians are not supposed to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9, Romans 12:17). We are commanded to love our enemies (Luke 6:27), do good to those who hate us (Luke 6:27), bless those who curse us (Luke 6:28), pray for those who mistreat us (Luke 6:28), and the list goes on.

In fact, there's a spiritual principle called "moving in the opposite spirit." It's very interesting, but that's a topic for a thread of its own.

Btw, I saw a couple posts where you had mentioned you're an atheist. If so, I can understand your point of view... but as was posted in post #5, our battle is not physical. It's a spiritual battle. And acting just like the world is the exact opposite of what we are told to do.

two millennia of the famous meme:
"christians are not supposed to.....

 

[Devils_Advocate]

No

 

[surada]

They once were but nowadays they are not willing to protect their religion physically anymore against attacks. I listened to TikTok videos, Andrew Tate an American said islam is the true religion because it is the last religion, that means the last religion where you wont get out alive if you insult Mohammed or burn the Quran even in a Secular country where muslims are immigrants like Sweden, but in a mostly christian country like sweden or the USA you can insult in the most vile way Jesus and Christians wont defend themselfes physically.

A devout Christian answered, that we should focus more the heavenly realm, Gods realm not the physical realm and that the Bible says it is God who is to avenge, not we, God is the perfect judge, and it is not our buisness to protect God.

I think that is a bit more complicated, while we do really need to focus on the godly realm the Bible says we must first seek the kingodm of God and his righteousness, and that his will should be done on earth like in heaven, right?

Matthew 6,33 Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness...

Also according to the Bible we should do what Christ would do, we should strife to be holy like he was holy... But didnt Christ got physical with the money changers in the Temple? Does that mean if we something unrighteous and blaspheming etc. at least in Church maybe not in the state, but at least in our Church/Temple we can or should get physical? Didnt Christ throw over the tables of the money changers?

Matthew 21,12 Then Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves. 13And He declared to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’ ”…

So can we get or are allowed to get physical? Should we get physical?

In my opinion I would if i know i can win... or if im angry enough

What a stupid post. Are you into fist fighting over religion?

 

[skye]

No. Our battle is not physical.

Ephesians 6:12-17

Yes it is

It is physical and it is spiritual it is both.

HE said: You live by the sword you die by the sword.

And that's enough said about the subject for me.

 

[skye]

Answering the OP's question.....IMO yes Mortimer, they should.

 

[buttercup]

Yes it is

It is physical and it is spiritual it is both.

HE said: You live by the sword you die by the sword.

And that's enough said about the subject for me.

Do you understand what "you live by the sword you die by the sword" means? It's not pro-violence. The context is when they came to arrest Jesus, Peter cut off the high priest's ear....and what did Jesus do? He didn't high five him and say 'good job Peter!'

Here's what happened, from gotquestions.org:

Jesus rebuked Peter and put a quick stop to the bloodshed. Jesus replaced the wounded man’s ear, healing him instantly (Luke 22:51). Then He told Peter to put his sword away, for “all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52)

The proverb’s meaning is still basically the same: a person who lives violently will probably at some point be killed in a violent manner. Violence begets violence. Those who practice violence will come to violent ends.

What does it mean to live by the sword and die by the sword? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean to live by the sword and die by the sword? Is the saying 'live by the sword, die by the sword' in the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[skye]

Do you understand what "you live by the sword you die by the sword" means? It's not pro-violence. The context is when they came to arrest Jesus, Peter cut off the high priest's ear....and what did Jesus do? He didn't high five him and say 'good job Peter!'

Here's what happened, from gotquestions.org:

Jesus rebuked Peter and put a quick stop to the bloodshed. Jesus replaced the wounded man’s ear, healing him instantly (Luke 22:51). Then He told Peter to put his sword away, for “all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52)

The proverb’s meaning is still basically the same: a person who lives violently will probably at some point be killed in a violent manner. Violence begets violence. Those who practice violence will come to violent ends.

What does it mean to live by the sword and die by the sword? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean to live by the sword and die by the sword? Is the saying 'live by the sword, die by the sword' in the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

sorry but.... ^^^

we are not on the same page ok?

 

[buttercup]

sorry but.... ^^^

we are not on the same page ok?

You can believe what you want, but I clearly showed you that you misused that passage. In fact, you kinda tried to make it the opposite of what it's saying.

Feel free to defend your position. If you can't or you don't want to, that's fine... but you made the assertion, so it's on you to back yourself up.

 

[skye]

You can believe what you want, but I clearly showed you that you misused that passage. In fact, you kinda tried to make it the opposite of what it's saying.

Feel free to defend your position. If you can't or you don't want to, that's fine... but you made the assertion, so it's on you to back yourself up.

I don't have to back anything to you.

I think what I think I believe what I believe and that's that.

I have nothing to defend to you..... zero....... I believe what my heart tells me and that's plenty for me.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Ask yourself, what happened to the Christians didn't fight and were placed into the Roman Colosseum? They were subsequently eaten by lions....BUT.....their self sacrifice so inspired others to peace, that the religion spread around the globe.

Yep. We were called to something that is HARD, not easy. God will separate the wheat from the chaff

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I don't have to back anything to you.

I think what I think I believe what I believe and that's that.

I have nothing to defend to you..... zero....... I believe what my heart tells me and that's plenty for me.

Why so angry and defensive Skye? I see more here than a simple debate