Zone1 Should Christians get more physical in defending their religion?

[Mortimer]

They once were but nowadays they are not willing to protect their religion physically anymore against attacks. I listened to TikTok videos, Andrew Tate an American said islam is the true religion because it is the last religion, that means the last religion where you wont get out alive if you insult Mohammed or burn the Quran even in a Secular country where muslims are immigrants like Sweden, but in a mostly christian country like sweden or the USA you can insult in the most vile way Jesus and Christians wont defend themselfes physically.

A devout Christian answered, that we should focus more the heavenly realm, Gods realm not the physical realm and that the Bible says it is God who is to avenge, not we, God is the perfect judge, and it is not our buisness to protect God.

I think that is a bit more complicated, while we do really need to focus on the godly realm the Bible says we must first seek the kingodm of God and his righteousness, and that his will should be done on earth like in heaven, right?

Matthew 6,33 Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness...

Also according to the Bible we should do what Christ would do, we should strife to be holy like he was holy... But didnt Christ got physical with the money changers in the Temple? Does that mean if we something unrighteous and blaspheming etc. at least in Church maybe not in the state, but at least in our Church/Temple we can or should get physical? Didnt Christ throw over the tables of the money changers?

Matthew 21,12 Then Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves. 13And He declared to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’ ”…

So can we get or are allowed to get physical? Should we get physical?

In my opinion I would if i know i can win... or if im angry enough

 

[LuckyDuck]

Matthew 5:38-39

 

[Mortimer]

St John Chrysostom:

“But since our discourse has now turned to the subject of blasphemy, I desire to ask one favor of you all, in return for this my address, and speaking with you; which is, that you will correct on my behalf the blasphemers of this city. And should you hear any one in the public thoroughfare, or in the midst of the forum, blaspheming God; go up to him and rebuke him; and should it be necessary to inflict blows, spare not to do so. Smite him on the face; strike his mouth; sanctify your hand with the blow, and if any should accuse you, and drag you to the place of justice, follow them there; and when the judge on the bench calls you to account, say boldly that the man blasphemed the King of angels! For if it be necessary to punish those who blaspheme an earthly king, much more so those who insult God. It is a common crime, a public injury; and it is lawful for every one who is willing, to bring forward an accusation. Let the Jews and Greeks learn, that the Christians are the saviours of the city; that they are its guardians, its patrons, and its teachers. Let the dissolute and the perverse also learn this; that they must fear the servants of God too; that if at any time they are inclined to utter such a thing, they may look round every way at each other, and tremble even at their own shadows, anxious lest perchance a Christian, having heard what they said, should spring upon them and sharply chastise them. Have you not heard what John did? He saw a man that was a tyrant overthrowing the laws of marriage; and with boldness, he proclaimed in the midst of the forum, It is not lawful for you to have your brother Philip’s wife. Mark 6:18 But I urge you on, not against a prince or a judge; nor against the marriage ordinance outraged; nor in behalf of fellow-servants insulted. But I require you to castigate an equal, for insolence against the Lord. Truly, if I had said unto you, punish and correct those kings or judges who transgress the laws, would you not say that I was mad? But John forsooth acted thus. So that even this is not too much for us. Now then, at least, correct a fellow-servant; an equal; and although it should be necessary to die, do not shrink from chastising a brother. This is your martyrdom, since John was also a martyr. And although he was not commanded to sacrifice, nor to worship an idol, yet for the sacred laws that were despised, he laid down his head. Do thou too then contend, even to the death, for the truth, and God will fight for you! And make me not this cold reply. What matters it to me? I have nothing in common with him. With the devil alone we have nothing in common, but with all men we have many things in common; for they partake of the same nature with us; they inhabit the same earth, and they are nourished with the same food; they have the same Lord; they have received the same laws, and are invited to the same blessings with ourselves. Let us not say then, that we have nothing in common with them; for this is a satanic speech; a diabolical inhumanity. Therefore let us not give utterance to such words, but exhibit such a tender care as becomes brethren!” – Saint John Chrysostom (Homily 1 On the Statues #32)

 

[Mortimer]

Matthew 5:38-39

Between to not even defend yourself even if you are gonna get killed and "eye for an eye" there is much inbetween, i think it was at least commonly understood that it means to forgive the attacker and invite him to stop the attack, to give him a chance to change his mind, to turn the other cheek then he will be surprised, to not fight fire with fire, he will be first surprised and then stop, but what if he doesnt stop? after you turned the other cheek? what if he doesnt stop? wouldnt you need to correct him physically?

 

[buttercup]

No. Our battle is not physical.

Ephesians 6:12-17

 

[Mortimer]

No. Our battle is not physical.

Ephesians 6:12-17

We are pretty much physical in this world, and it say thy will should be done on earth like in heaven, and that we should actively seek the kindgod of God and his righteousness in this world, I do not think that this is meant universally that we are not in this world, we are physical beings and have body, mind and soul, our body is also the temple of god, and holy, we must also look at our body (physical) so if that were literally or universal just for everything it would not make sense with the other chapters in the Bible or logic.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Between to not even defend yourself even if you are gonna get killed and "eye for an eye" there is much inbetween, i think it was at least commonly understood that it means to forgive the attacker and invite him to stop the attack, to give him a chance to change his mind, to turn the other cheek then he will be surprised, to not fight fire with fire, he will be first surprised and then stop, but what if he doesnt stop? after you turned the other cheek? what if he doesnt stop? wouldnt you need to correct him physically?

Ask yourself, what happened to the Christians didn't fight and were placed into the Roman Colosseum? They were subsequently eaten by lions....BUT.....their self sacrifice so inspired others to peace, that the religion spread around the globe.

 

[Mortimer]

Ask yourself, what happened to the Christians didn't fight and were placed into the Roman Colosseum? They were subsequently eaten by lions....BUT.....their self sacrifice so inspired others to peace, that the religion spread around the globe.

Their religion spread with fire and sword, they destroyed pagan temples physically, cut down holy trees, and such. The first Christians were killed, but not because they believed you should not get physical, or didnt want to but because they were in the minority and powerless (physically).

 

[DudleySmith]

WE know the Apostles carried swords, and Peter cut off the ear of a govt. official with one. It's a myth to claim Christians shouldn't defend themselves from vermin.

 

[DudleySmith]

Ask yourself, what happened to the Christians didn't fight and were placed into the Roman Colosseum? They were subsequently eaten by lions....BUT.....their self sacrifice so inspired others to peace, that the religion spread around the globe.

If that worked so well then how to explain why there aren't a couple of billion Jewish converts as a result of the Nazi death camps?

Most Christians and their churches stayed hidden and practiced in secret.

 

[irosie91]

They once were but nowadays they are not willing to protect their religion physically anymore against attacks. I listened to TikTok videos, Andrew Tate an American said islam is the true religion because it is the last religion, that means the last religion where you wont get out alive if you insult Mohammed or burn the Quran even in a Secular country where muslims are immigrants like Sweden, but in a mostly christian country like sweden or the USA you can insult in the most vile way Jesus and Christians wont defend themselfes physically.

A devout Christian answered, that we should focus more the heavenly realm, Gods realm not the physical realm and that the Bible says it is God who is to avenge, not we, God is the perfect judge, and it is not our buisness to protect God.

I think that is a bit more complicated, while we do really need to focus on the godly realm the Bible says we must first seek the kingodm of God and his righteousness, and that his will should be done on earth like in heaven, right?

Matthew 6,33 Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness...

Also according to the Bible we should do what Christ would do, we should strife to be holy like he was holy... But didnt Christ got physical with the money changers in the Temple? Does that mean if we something unrighteous and blaspheming etc. at least in Church maybe not in the state, but at least in our Church/Temple we can or should get physical? Didnt Christ throw over the tables of the money changers?

Matthew 21,12 Then Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves. 13And He declared to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’ ”…

So can we get or are allowed to get physical? Should we get physical?

In my opinion I would if i know i can win... or if im angry enough

Morty----in the HISTORY of christianity----christians DID
get more than ENOUGH physical. That the tendency
got COOLED is a good thing. For the record---I have
no doubt that Jesus DID confront the merchants in the
Temple Courtyard. That history virtually PROVES that
Jesus was a Pharisee----they HATED, PASSIONATELY--
the merchandising in the Temple Courtyard----it was
a ROMAN SPONSORED thing (with the cooperation of
the Sadducean shills) (don't expect this fact to be
taught in sunday jelly-bean school)

 

[buttercup]

WE know the Apostles carried swords, and Peter cut off the ear of a govt. official with one. It's a myth to claim Christians shouldn't defend themselves from vermin.

With all due respect, that incident doesn't help your case, because if you're talking about what happened right before Jesus was arrested, when Peter cut off the official's ear, Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:50-54) Then he touched the guy's ear and healed him.

Self-defense is one thing, but I think what Mort is talking about (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) goes beyond self-defense.

Christians are not supposed to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9, Romans 12:17). We are commanded to love our enemies (Luke 6:27), do good to those who hate us (Luke 6:27), bless those who curse us (Luke 6:28), pray for those who mistreat us (Luke 6:28), and the list goes on.

In fact, there's a spiritual principle called "moving in the opposite spirit." It's very interesting, but that's a topic for a thread of its own.

Btw, I saw a couple posts where you had mentioned you're an atheist. If so, I can understand your point of view... but as was posted in post #5, our battle is not physical. It's a spiritual battle. And acting just like the world is the exact opposite of what we are told to do.

 

[irosie91]

With all due respect, that incident doesn't help your case, because if you're talking about what happened right before Jesus was arrested, when Peter cut off the official's ear, Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:50-57) Then he touched the guy's ear and healed him.

Self-defense is one thing, but I think what Mort is talking about (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) goes beyond self-defense.

Christians are not supposed to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9, Romans 12:17). We are commanded to love our enemies (Luke 6:27), do good to those who hate us (Luke 6:27), bless those who curse us (Luke 6:28), pray for those who mistreat us (Luke 6:28), and the list goes on.

In fact, there's a spiritual principle called "moving in the opposite spirit." It's very interesting, but that's a topic for a thread of its own.

Btw, I saw a couple posts where you had mentioned you're an atheist. If so, I can understand your point of view... but as was posted in post #5, our battle is not physical. It's a spiritual battle. And acting just like the world is the exact opposite of what we are told to do.

Historically----that did NOT HAPPEN (ie--the "spiritual
battle)

 

[buttercup]

Historically----that did NOT HAPPEN (ie--the "spiritual
battle)

I think we're talking about 2 different things. I wasn't talking about what a particular church or corrupt people did historically under the banner of religion. When I say spiritual battle, I'm talking about the spiritual battle that has been going on since the dawn of time and is still going on to this day.

That's why I mentioned Ephesians 6, because it talks about spiritual warfare.

 

[Mortimer]

With all due respect, that incident doesn't help your case, because if you're talking about what happened right before Jesus was arrested, when Peter cut off the official's ear, Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:50-57) Then he touched the guy's ear and healed him.

Self-defense is one thing, but I think what Mort is talking about (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) goes beyond self-defense.

Christians are not supposed to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9, Romans 12:17). We are commanded to love our enemies (Luke 6:27), do good to those who hate us (Luke 6:27), bless those who curse us (Luke 6:28), pray for those who mistreat us (Luke 6:28), and the list goes on.

In fact, there's a spiritual principle called "moving in the opposite spirit." It's very interesting, but that's a topic for a thread of its own.

Btw, I saw a couple posts where you had mentioned you're an atheist. If so, I can understand your point of view... but as was posted in post #5, our battle is not physical. It's a spiritual battle. And acting just like the world is the exact opposite of what we are told to do.

It doesnt go beyond self-defense, but self-defense is up to interpretation what if someone attacks jesus is that self-defense to correct him? what if it is only verbal to fight with him would that be self-defense? if he comes up to you and says jesus christ is shit, and you talk back is that self-defense? christians are not only not willing to get physical anymore they are also not willing to at least verbally defend their faith and im talking about majority of churches like episcopalian, lutheran and even now in the catholic church, they are also not willing to follow their own faith, bible, scriptures, they threw it away, and have rewritten it, etc

 

[irosie91]

It doesnt go beyond self-defense, but self-defense is up to interpretation what if someone attacks jesus is that self-defense to correct him? what if it is only verbal to fight with him would that be self-defense? if he comes up to you and says jesus christ is shit, and you talk back is that self-defense? christians are not only not willing to get physical anymore they are also not willing to at least verbally defend their faith and im talking about majority of churches like episcopalian, lutheran and even now in the catholic church, they are also not willing to follow their own faith, bible, scriptures, they threw it away, and have rewritten it, etc

you consider it a BAD thing that christians NO LONGER
kill people who "insult" their religion??? ..... or MURDER
people who refuse to adopt it?

 

[Mortimer]

you consider it a BAD thing that christians NO LONGER
kill people who "insult" their religion??? ..... or MURDER
people who refuse to adopt it?

Christians stand nowadays for everything and if you stand for everything you stand for nothing. Muslims stand for something, Christians dont.

 

[beautress]

They once were but nowadays they are not willing to protect their religion physically anymore against attacks. I listened to TikTok videos, Andrew Tate an American said islam is the true religion because it is the last religion, that means the last religion where you wont get out alive if you insult Mohammed or burn the Quran even in a Secular country where muslims are immigrants like Sweden, but in a mostly christian country like sweden or the USA you can insult in the most vile way Jesus and Christians wont defend themselfes physically.

A devout Christian answered, that we should focus more the heavenly realm, Gods realm not the physical realm and that the Bible says it is God who is to avenge, not we, God is the perfect judge, and it is not our buisness to protect God.

I think that is a bit more complicated, while we do really need to focus on the godly realm the Bible says we must first seek the kingodm of God and his righteousness, and that his will should be done on earth like in heaven, right?

Matthew 6,33 Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness...

Also according to the Bible we should do what Christ would do, we should strife to be holy like he was holy... But didnt Christ got physical with the money changers in the Temple? Does that mean if we something unrighteous and blaspheming etc. at least in Church maybe not in the state, but at least in our Church/Temple we can or should get physical? Didnt Christ throw over the tables of the money changers?

Matthew 21,12 Then Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves. 13And He declared to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’ ”…

So can we get or are allowed to get physical? Should we get physical?

In my opinion I would if i know i can win... or if im angry enough

Christians may have a unique perspective on the Kingdom of God that requires duty and faith rather than physical safety. "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me." Mark 8:34.
There are 30 Bible verses that discuss hardships of following the Master: 30 Bible verses about Christ's Disciples Will Suffer

Where It’s Hardest to Follow Jesus:

1. Afghanistan
2. North Korea
3. Somalia
4. Libya
5. Yemen
6. Eritrea
7. Nigeria
8. Pakistan
9. Iran
10. India

Where Christians Were Martyred Most:

1. Nigeria: 4,650
2. Pakistan: 620
3. Name withheld: 100*
4. Burkina Faso 100*
5. Democratic Republic of Congo: 100*
6. Mozambique: 100*
7. Central African Republic: 29
8. Cameroon: 27
9. Tanzania: 25
10. Indonesia: 15

*Estimate | Open Doors reporting period: Oct. 2020 to Sept. 2021

A lot more here: The 50 Countries Where It’s Hardest to Follow Jesus in 2022

World Watch List 2023

World Watch List 2023 The World Watch List is Open Doors’ annual ranking of the 50 countries where Christians face the most extreme...

www.opendoors.org

20 Bible Verses about Christian Martyrdom: 20 Bible verses about Martyrdom Of The Saints

5,898 Christian were killed for faith related reasons last year

World Watch List 2023

World Watch List 2023 The World Watch List is Open Doors’ annual ranking of the 50 countries where Christians face the most extreme...

www.opendoors.org

 

[Mortimer]

Christians may have a unique perspective on the Kingdom of God that requires duty and faith rather than physical safety. "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me." Mark 8:34.
There are 30 Bible verses that discuss hardships of following the Master: 30 Bible verses about Christ's Disciples Will Suffer

Where It’s Hardest to Follow Jesus:

1. Afghanistan
2. North Korea
3. Somalia
4. Libya
5. Yemen
6. Eritrea
7. Nigeria
8. Pakistan
9. Iran
10. India

Where Christians Were Martyred Most:

1. Nigeria: 4,650
2. Pakistan: 620
3. Name withheld: 100*
4. Burkina Faso 100*
5. Democratic Republic of Congo: 100*
6. Mozambique: 100*
7. Central African Republic: 29
8. Cameroon: 27
9. Tanzania: 25
10. Indonesia: 15

*Estimate | Open Doors reporting period: Oct. 2020 to Sept. 2021

A lot more here: The 50 Countries Where It’s Hardest to Follow Jesus in 2022

World Watch List 2023

World Watch List 2023 The World Watch List is Open Doors’ annual ranking of the 50 countries where Christians face the most extreme...

www.opendoors.org

20 Bible Verses about Christian Martyrdom: 20 Bible verses about Martyrdom Of The Saints

5,898 Christian were killed for faith related reasons last year

World Watch List 2023

World Watch List 2023 The World Watch List is Open Doors’ annual ranking of the 50 countries where Christians face the most extreme...

www.opendoors.org

So their martyrdom in those countries not physical, is the cross physical or just spiritual duty and faith?

 

[Mortimer]

I made it a todays sermon: 17.10.2022 sermon