Zone1 God of the Old Testament and New Testament

[hadit]

Can you honestly say, "I know Jesus." You are misquoting--or not understanding--the filthy rags sentiment.

Am I misquoting Jesus when He tells those who tried to do it on their own that He never knew them?

"Come meet the man who will judge you as a horrible human being and throw you into a fiery furnace." If anyone said those words to me, my word back would be a firm, no-nonsense, "Pass."

No, how do you claim to know the Scriptures when you twist what I say like that? "You are on a path that will end in your destruction. You already have an idea of what I'm talking about because you know you're not living in a way that pleases God, your conscience won't leave you alone. Come, find the way that He made for you to know Him. Find real, deep, long-lasting peace and joy. Find a relationship like nothing you've ever dreamed of, but be warned, you will be expected to sacrifice yourself daily".

Why would you present a relationship with Jesus that's only half of what He preached and carries no personal responsibility?

Compare that to:

"Come meet the man who forgives sins and lives a life righteous and well-worth living. Upon meeting him, you will meet someone who truly cares about you, who sees in you the best version of yourself, and all you can be. You'll love him."

All without even mentioning the reality that if they refuse, they will be forever banished from His presence? See, you keep saying "forgives sins", but you never even attempt to help them understand that they ARE sinning, and their end will be disaster if they don't repent. You're only giving part of the message. You should present a clear choice, keep going the way you're going that ends in disaster or follow Him and have joy and peace the world cannot understand.

If all you see is death and destruction, I would not reach for any rope you were throwing. How about, "Grab onto the rope and I can take you to see a sight and a view you won't want to miss."

First priority is to get you out of the water, then introduce you to the joy of life. You can promise all sorts of wonderful things, but what incentive is there to grab a rope when you're having fun in your little tube on the water in the sunshine? Life is good, you think you have no NEED of a lifeline. That's where most people you meet today live. The message is to convince you that you are headed for disaster and convince you that you will be better off if you take the rope. BOTH are important parts of Christ's message, so stop pretending all you see is doom and gloom, that's not true.

 

[ding]

You cannot be corrected. You LAUGHED when I told someone else that God's covenant with Israel was NATIONAL and not a spiritual covenant.
When I corrected your "laugh" you called me arrogant. When I showed you what even Google says and is widely understood, you called me arrogant.

You cannot learn. You know everything. But I am "arrogant"

God doesn't dwell in the hearts of nations. God dwells in the hearts, minds and souls of men and women. So you can keep dwelling on covenants and miss the spirit inside until the comes come home as far as I am concerned. Doesn't affect me one bit.

 

[Meriweather]

Am I misquoting Jesus when He tells those who tried to do it on their own that He never knew them?

Let's present what Jesus actually said. There are people in all times who give lip service, mistakenly believing that is all that is wanted and needed. Jesus said those who were truly with him, were discerning the will of God and doing God's will. Lip service is not God's will. "I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior" can be another example of lip service if "Our Father" is not understood and lived. Jesus is one with the Father, and those who are not discerning and doing God's will in his/her own life, is not going to know know the Father and therefore, will not know Jesus as he is one with the Father.

Where you ruin it for all is your, "And if you don't do this..." and go on with threatening scenarios.

Why would you present a relationship with Jesus that's only half of what He preached and carries no personal responsibility?

What may not be understood is that I am presenting a relationship with Jesus. I present the true relationship and do not distract/detract from it.

 

[Meriweather]

All without even mentioning the reality that if they refuse, they will be forever banished from His presence? See, you keep saying "forgives sins", but you never even attempt to help them understand that they ARE sinning, and their end will be disaster if they don't repent. You're only giving part of the message. You should present a clear choice, keep going the way you're going that ends in disaster or follow Him and have joy and peace the world cannot understand.

Here is a simple analogy: You offer a person a piece of chocolate cake. They are not interested and say no. Do you feel the need to tell them, "If you don't eat this chocolate cake, then you will go without!" The person has already told you they wish to go without.

As far as sin, which enslaves: Does someone wish to be free right now, today, or does one want to remain a slave?

Why not lead? There is a way of living free, without being enslaved. Introduce Jesus and his Way of living in this world, right now, as a free person. There is no need to end the Good News with threats. (i.e., "And if you don't!!!!!")

 

[Meriweather]

First priority is to get you out of the water, then introduce you to the joy of life. You can promise all sorts of wonderful things, but what incentive is there to grab a rope when you're having fun in your little tube on the water in the sunshine? Life is good, you think you have no NEED of a lifeline. That's where most people you meet today live. The message is to convince you that you are headed for disaster and convince you that you will be better off if you take the rope. BOTH are important parts of Christ's message, so stop pretending all you see is doom and gloom, that's not true.

My point is there is no need to shove doom and gloom in anyone's face. It's pointless. Your point is that you see a great need to shove doom and gloom in people's faces.

 

[hadit]

My point is there is no need to shove doom and gloom in anyone's face. It's pointless. Your point is that you see a great need to shove doom and gloom in people's faces.

No, there is a great and urgent need for people to realize they are headed for destruction if they do not repent of sin and accept God's offer of salvation. By ignoring that, you present the Gospel as a feel-good option instead of the lifeline out of destruction that it really is. Just like you floating down the river and me desperately throwing you a lifeline and you say, "Why should I grab this rope? All you're going to do is pull me out of the water that I'm enjoying right now". Can't tell you there's white water and a waterfall ahead that will kill you, that's shoving doom and gloom in somebody's face.

Yes, we present the Gospel as the best news ever, but it's the best news ever because of its way out of SIN.

 

[hadit]

Here is a simple analogy: You offer a person a piece of chocolate cake. They are not interested and say no. Do you feel the need to tell them, "If you don't eat this chocolate cake, then you will go without!" The person has already told you they wish to go without.

Except that no one dies in eternal punishment for refusing a piece of cake. This is what I mean by you minimizing sin. If you have no sense of urgency that someone is heading for complete destruction, of course you're going to present the Gospel as another feel-good option.

As far as sin, which enslaves: Does someone wish to be free right now, today, or does one want to remain a slave?

You know the flesh wars against the Spirit. Of course, people want to remain in sin. It's comfortable, pleasurable and meets all the flesh's appetites. They don't realize it's a trap until the Spirit starts calling to them, alerting them that they are on the wrong path and in rebellion against God. A person's awareness of sin is what calls them to the cross where they cry out for redemption.

Why not lead? There is a way of living free, without being enslaved. Introduce Jesus and his Way of living in this world, right now, as a free person. There is no need to end the Good News with threats. (i.e., "And if you don't!!!!!")

So, you want to present salvation as a way to be free of sin without even mentioning the end result of facing God after a lifetime of rebellion against Him? Why does Scripture even bother to tell us about the consequences of living that way?

If they are listening to you, they are already being called by the Spirit. Therefore, if you do not offer them the way to deal with the guilt of sin that is weighing them down by pretending sin is no big deal, you basically offer them a good time, little more fulfilling than what they can already get for a few bucks.

Why did Jesus suffer, die, and resurrect Himself? Just to give us a good time? NO, to give us that rope that pulls us out of the river before the falls kills us.

 

[hadit]

Let's present what Jesus actually said. There are people in all times who give lip service, mistakenly believing that is all that is wanted and needed. Jesus said those who were truly with him, were discerning the will of God and doing God's will. Lip service is not God's will. "I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior" can be another example of lip service if "Our Father" is not understood and lived. Jesus is one with the Father, and those who are not discerning and doing God's will in his/her own life, is not going to know know the Father and therefore, will not know Jesus as he is one with the Father.

Where you ruin it for all is your, "And if you don't do this..." and go on with threatening scenarios.

What may not be understood is that I am presenting a relationship with Jesus. I present the true relationship and do not distract/detract from it.

The Scriptures go to great lengths telling us what eternity without God is like, as well as what eternity with Him is like. Tell me, if we're not supposed to even mention it, why does it tell us anything about it?

 

[Meriweather]

No, there is a great and urgent need for people to realize they are headed for destruction

What you don't seem to understand is that I am discussing priority. Is the most important point to tell everyone they are headed for destruction, a torturous eternity in hellfire?

Or, is the priority to tell of God's love for all and holiness, and how responding to the call for holiness, discerning and following God's will will bring about the result of being free of the enslavement of sin, of becoming the best version of oneself when it comes to love, generosity, thankfulness, and joy? Is the priority to proclaim God's love, the Good News, and the Way of Salvation that is open to all, and that our eternal life begins today, right now and extends on past our earthly life?

Or, is the priority telling of God's punishment and hellfire?

 

[hadit]

What you don't seem to understand is that I am discussing priority. Is the most important point to tell everyone they are headed for destruction, a torturous eternity in hellfire?

Or, is the priority to tell of God's love for all and holiness, and how responding to the call for holiness, discerning and following God's will will bring about the result of being free of the enslavement of sin, of becoming the best version of oneself when it comes to love, generosity, thankfulness, and joy? Is the priority to proclaim God's love, the Good News, and the Way of Salvation that is open to all, and that our eternal life begins today, right now and extends on past our earthly life?

Or, is the priority telling of God's punishment and hellfire?

Okay, I'll go along with the priority being to emphasize God's love and compassion as long as we don't neglect the rest of the story. Our human inclination is to go so far on one side that the other side gets shortcut.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, I'll go along with the priority being to emphasize God's love and compassion as long as we don't neglect the rest of the story. Our human inclination is to go so far on one side that the other side gets shortcut.

In all the decades I've been celebrating Mass, there were only three homilies that touched on hell--which over my lifetime means that had I blinked, I would have missed them. The focus is always God in our midst, God in our life, what God has done for us since the beginning of time, how God is calling us to serve Him, What God wants for us/from us. When one's focus is on God and what He has done for us through His son, Jesus Christ, on Jesus' Way and teachings, there is very little time or need to take our eyes of God and salvation.

Catholic teaching: Hell is eternal separation from God. It is not known who--if anyone--is in hell. God is calling us to Him; there is no need for threats. The more we learn about God, the closer we come to the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the greater the interest/awareness. There is little need to go off on a boring side trip about hell.

Or, in baseball terms: We teach the batter to keep eyes on the ball; we don't teach that every so often take eyes off the ball to look at traffic passing by. I consider your interest in hell a waste of good time when interest could be centered on Jesus, the Kingdom, and Kingdom living in the present. Interests vary.

 

[hadit]

In all the decades I've been celebrating Mass, there were only three homilies that touched on hell--which over my lifetime means that had I blinked, I would have missed them. The focus is always God in our midst, God in our life, what God has done for us since the beginning of time, how God is calling us to serve Him, What God wants for us/from us. When one's focus is on God and what He has done for us through His son, Jesus Christ, on Jesus' Way and teachings, there is very little time or need to take our eyes of God and salvation.

Catholic teaching: Hell is eternal separation from God. It is not known who--if anyone--is in hell. God is calling us to Him; there is no need for threats. The more we learn about God, the closer we come to the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the greater the interest/awareness. There is little need to go off on a boring side trip about hell.

Okay, do you believe that a person who dies in their sins is eternally separated from God? Judging by your post, I am not certain that you do. That would explain why there is no urgency when you speak to someone about Christ, and the fact that you consider even the topic of hell to be boring tells me a lot. You appear to not even really believe anyone rejecting God will end up eternally separated from Him.

Or, in baseball terms: We teach the batter to keep eyes on the ball; we don't teach that every so often take eyes off the ball to look at traffic passing by. I consider your interest in hell a waste of good time when interest could be centered on Jesus, the Kingdom, and Kingdom living in the present. Interests vary.

We also make the batter wear a helmet and tell him to duck if a pitch is coming at his head. Why? Because bad things can happen to his head if he doesn't. Here's the choice. If you believe a person who dies in their sin without being redeemed through Christ, you will have a sense of urgency and you will warn them of that outcome. If you don't actually believe people will be eternally separated from God, you won't, because dying in your sin isn't a big deal to you.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, do you believe that a person who dies in their sins is eternally separated from God? Judging by your post, I am not certain that you do. That would explain why there is no urgency when you speak to someone about Christ, and the fact that you consider even the topic of hell to be boring tells me a lot. You appear to not even really believe anyone rejecting God will end up eternally separated from Him.

I have a few questions as well:

How much faith do you have in the power of God's saving grace?
How much faith do you have in the Father's love?
How much faith do you have that God truly will forgive our sins?
Have you any faith that God can purify a willing soul?
Does "You of little faith" strike a chord? It appears you have great faith in your own power to scare people by waving hell in front of them.

The fact is, no matter how great our battle is, there will still be a sin(s) that we die in. (Don't even try to go into, "But that sin(s) will be covered up!")
There is no urgency when speaking to people about Christ because I am merely the sower with the seed. From there, it is all the power of the Holy Spirit.

Compared to drawing ever closer to God, hell is boring. Should I worry that you find hell so captivating it can draw you away from speaking of God's love and His salvation?

 

[Meriweather]

We also make the batter wear a helmet and tell him to duck if a pitch is coming at his head. Why? Because bad things can happen to his head if he doesn't. Here's the choice. If you believe a person who dies in their sin without being redeemed through Christ, you will have a sense of urgency and you will warn them of that outcome. If you don't actually believe people will be eternally separated from God, you won't, because dying in your sin isn't a big deal to you.

Have you ever seen kids wearing helmets in PE games? Have you ever had to tell anyone to duck if they see a projectile heading towards them? In all the years I've taught, I've never began a lesson by scaring students into what could happen. Even thinking about it, it is easy to imagine students backing away with wide eyes insisting they don't even want to try to play that game. I simply teach them how to bat properly, catch properly, throw properly, etc. Then, with confidence, play begins.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

In all the decades I've been celebrating Mass, there were only three homilies that touched on hell--which over my lifetime means that had I blinked, I would have missed them. The focus is always God in our midst, God in our life, what God has done for us since the beginning of time, how God is calling us to serve Him, What God wants for us/from us. When one's focus is on God and what He has done for us through His son, Jesus Christ, on Jesus' Way and teachings, there is very little time or need to take our eyes of God and salvation.

Catholic teaching: Hell is eternal separation from God. It is not known who--if anyone--is in hell. God is calling us to Him; there is no need for threats. The more we learn about God, the closer we come to the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the greater the interest/awareness. There is little need to go off on a boring side trip about hell.

Or, in baseball terms: We teach the batter to keep eyes on the ball; we don't teach that every so often take eyes off the ball to look at traffic passing by. I consider your interest in hell a waste of good time when interest could be centered on Jesus, the Kingdom, and Kingdom living in the present. Interests vary.

Jesus warned about Eternal Death a lot during His ministry. It was an important part of His message

 

[Votto]

Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?

We often judge God to be harsh reading the OT but fail to consider what he is being harsh about.

Take the city of Sodom, for example. Here is a story that shows how the people of Sodom would follow strangers into their city to gang rape them. Yea, not nice people in the least, and I would say that depravity has limits in terms of being able to be redeemed from it.

God in my view tires to show mercy to sinners, because we are all sinners, while making sure mankind does not destroy himself in the process, which then occasionally needs his "harshness" to cut out the metastasis that is killing the host if not treated.

 

[hadit]

I have a few questions as well:

How much faith do you have in the power of God's saving grace?
How much faith do you have in the Father's love?
How much faith do you have that God truly will forgive our sins?
Have you any faith that God can purify a willing soul?
Does "You of little faith" strike a chord? It appears you have great faith in your own power to scare people by waving hell in front of them.

My faith is in God deciding for Himself who will live with Him for eternity and who will not. My faith does not ignore what God tells us about eternal separation from Him, unlike, it appears, you do. I take seriously the passages of Scripture that speak of those rejected when we all stand before Him, why do you not?

You've never answered a direct question. Do you even believe that anyone will suffer eternal separation from God?

The fact is, no matter how great our battle is, there will still be a sin(s) that we die in. (Don't even try to go into, "But that sin(s) will be covered up!")
There is no urgency when speaking to people about Christ because I am merely the sower with the seed. From there, it is all the power of the Holy Spirit.

Compared to drawing ever closer to God, hell is boring. Should I worry that you find hell so captivating it can draw you away from speaking of God's love and His salvation?

You're being an absolutist, something I do not share. I've said the ENTIRE message needs to be preached, not just the sweet sounding things.

 

[hadit]

Have you ever seen kids wearing helmets in PE games? Have you ever had to tell anyone to duck if they see a projectile heading towards them? In all the years I've taught, I've never began a lesson by scaring students into what could happen. Even thinking about it, it is easy to imagine students backing away with wide eyes insisting they don't even want to try to play that game. I simply teach them how to bat properly, catch properly, throw properly, etc. Then, with confidence, play begins.

And what do we tell children about crossing the street? "Don't cross by yourself, hold my hand and look both ways". And do we tell our children they will get hurt if they cross the street without looking both ways, or do we go on about the good things they will get if they just do what we say? What do we tell our children about touching a hot stove? Do we tell them they will be hurt if they do, or do we just get them to focus on the good things they'll get if they just obey our instructions with no indication of the pain they'll feel if they touch one?

Are we honest enough to acknowledge that we warn children not to do certain things because they will be hurt? Why would we NOT tell someone headed for destruction that they are on a bad path?

Part of getting kids to not start taking illegal drugs is to show them the consequences of doing so. "This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs". Would it be more effective to avoid that topic entirely and tell them they'll feel better if they never start?
Ever hear of "scared straight"? We literally take rebellious teens who don't respond to anything else into prison and let them hear from the inmates what will happen to them on the inside. Would it be more effective to avoid that topic entirely and tell them it doesn't really matter if they take this seriously or not?
What do we do to discourage tobacco use? We flood media with messages about how injurious it is for you to use it, we put pictures of diseased lungs on packs of cigarettes.

Unless you're not even convinced that anyone will spend eternity apart from God, why would you NOT give someone the whole story?

 

[hadit]

We often judge God to be harsh reading the OT but fail to consider what he is being harsh about.

Take the city of Sodom, for example. Here is a story that shows how the people of Sodom would follow strangers into their city to gang rape them. Yea, not nice people in the least, and I would say that depravity has limits in terms of being able to be redeemed from it.

God in my view tires to show mercy to sinners, because we are all sinners, while making sure mankind does not destroy himself in the process, which then occasionally needs his "harshness" to cut out the metastasis that is killing the host if not treated.

That's why I say that we living today have never seen God get really angry at sin and therefore tend to minimize it, preferring to think He'll just brush it off like it doesn't mean anything. We minimize Christ's sacrifice. Some churches today even refuse to speak about the death Christ suffered and the blood He shed.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

We often judge God to be harsh reading the OT but fail to consider what he is being harsh about.

Take the city of Sodom, for example. Here is a story that shows how the people of Sodom would follow strangers into their city to gang rape them. Yea, not nice people in the least, and I would say that depravity has limits in terms of being able to be redeemed from it.

God in my view tires to show mercy to sinners, because we are all sinners, while making sure mankind does not destroy himself in the process, which then occasionally needs his "harshness" to cut out the metastasis that is killing the host if not treated.

God cuts them short in this life before their minds become so thoroughly corrupt that they cannot be saved, and like you said, so those around them are not poisoned.