Zone1 God of the Old Testament and New Testament

[shockedcanadian]

It's always been the same, single G-d. The question is about the messengers and commands people believe.

 

[Meriweather]

You've never answered a direct question. Do you even believe that anyone will suffer eternal separation from God?

Scripture (and therefore the Catholic Church) doesn't say and therefore it cannot be known with any certainty. As it cannot be known, I have no interest in forming a belief other than it appears it can go either way. I believe the correct definition of 'hell' is a chosen separation from God.

You're being an absolutist, something I do not share. I've said the ENTIRE message needs to be preached, not just the sweet sounding things.

Here is the reality. As much as you would like to pigeonhole me into the "absolutist" box so that you can better argue your case, I am far from being an absolutist. I meant what I said about priority. So, discerning the will of God and doing it, living the Way of salvation, the Beatitudes, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, caring for the sick, loving one's neighbors and one love him/herself, working on prayer, teaching/proclaiming the good news, and a relationship with God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just "sweet sounding things." Is that why you want to preach about hell? Is everything else is dismissed as a "sweet sounding thing", and not anything even remotely challenging?

 

[Meriweather]

And what do we tell children about crossing the street? "Don't cross by yourself, hold my hand and look both ways". And do we tell our children they will get hurt if they cross the street without looking both ways, or do we go on about the good things they will get if they just do what we say?

When he was just a little boy, riding his new tricycle, my dad asked his dad how far he could ride his tricycle. Grandpa replied, "You can ride as far as you like as long as you don't cross any streets." Happy as the proverbial lark, Dad took off and rode for what he described as a tremendously long time. Looking ahead, he saw his father, pedaled up to him and asked, "Dad! What are you doing way over here?"

As for holding hands crossing the street? We crossed at corners and we held hands so that we could be better seen by the people in the cars. I'm sorry you feel/felt the need to scare your children.

 

[Meriweather]

Ever hear of "scared straight"?

Yes. Have you ever done any research on this? There is little evidence that it works. In fact, in some cases those who did not participate in "scared straight" did better than those in the programs.

 

[Meriweather]

Unless you're not even convinced that anyone will spend eternity apart from God, why would you NOT give someone the whole story?

In your case, do they bring up hell or do you? If someone asks, me, I tell them what I told you in an earlier post. Catholic teaching is God does not send anyone to hell/eternal separation from Him. People choose hell/eternal separation from God. What more do you find to say?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Was God different in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times? Origen, one of the Church fathers, lived 185-253. He addressed this question, which was being asked in his day: Why was God so harsh on the Amalekites?

Origen thought about this, deciding the Bible had to be read as a whole, particularly considering the last book, Revelation, where the Lamb (Jesus) opened the scroll (the Bible). This will show how early on the Catholic Church did not take every Biblical story literally, how allegory was often used.

What is your take: Did God literally command the deaths of all the Amalekites, their crops and animals destroyed? If so, why that command?

Was God different, or the people who invented him different?

 

[Meriweather]

Was God different, or the people who invented him different?

God is not a human invention. God is. It's perspective. How many hold the exact same perspective of you?

 

[frigidweirdo]

God is not a human invention. God is. It's perspective. How many hold the exact same perspective of you?

You say that, and yet God appears to be hugely convenient for humans.

Let's put it this way. We live in a galaxy. It has maybe between 100 billion and 400 billion stars. Chances are there's life on other planets around those stars. If life was able to form on Earth, it was able to form on other planets.

Then there are an estimated 100 billion to 200 billion galaxies in the universe, we have no idea. Imagine how many chances for life there are. We even think there's life on asteroids, and when they crash into planets, they help start life on those planets.

A God of this universe would have created life all over, and that life would no doubt be different. Everything is different, every planet, even moon is different.

So why would God be so convenient for humans, if humans are in a solar system with plenty of other planets and moons, in a galaxy with billions of solar systems, with billions of galaxies?

 

[hadit]

Scripture (and therefore the Catholic Church) doesn't say and therefore it cannot be known with any certainty. As it cannot be known, I have no interest in forming a belief other than it appears it can go either way. I believe the correct definition of 'hell' is a chosen separation from God.

No wonder you have no sense of urgency about it, it would appear that you don't really believe anyone will be eternally separated from God, even those about whom God explicitly says "I never knew you" and those who are judged and found lacking. Do you think that Judgement Day is going to just be cotton candy and rose petals? Many people seem to have a belief that life in hell will be like it is here on earth and they're going to party with their friends. Why would we not dispel that fantasy and let them believe a lie?

Here is the reality. As much as you would like to pigeonhole me into the "absolutist" box so that you can better argue your case, I am far from being an absolutist. I meant what I said about priority. So, discerning the will of God and doing it, living the Way of salvation, the Beatitudes, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, caring for the sick, loving one's neighbors and one love him/herself, working on prayer, teaching/proclaiming the good news, and a relationship with God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just "sweet sounding things." Is that why you want to preach about hell? Is everything else is dismissed as a "sweet sounding thing", and not anything even remotely challenging?

I say you are an absolutist because you continue to portray me as willing only to preach hell. As I have shown you, that is not true. I want to present the whole story. Why present a savior if there is nothing from which to be saved?

 

[hadit]

In your case, do they bring up hell or do you? If someone asks, me, I tell them what I told you in an earlier post. Catholic teaching is God does not send anyone to hell/eternal separation from Him. People choose hell/eternal separation from God. What more do you find to say?

That's the case, they choose eternal separation, but if they do not understand that is what they are doing, they need to be warned. When the bridge is out, there are warning signs long before you get there so you can stop, turn around, and go a different way. We are to be warning signs. Why would you just stand by and watch the cars heading for disaster and NOT say anything?

 

[hadit]

When he was just a little boy, riding his new tricycle, my dad asked his dad how far he could ride his tricycle. Grandpa replied, "You can ride as far as you like as long as you don't cross any streets." Happy as the proverbial lark, Dad took off and rode for what he described as a tremendously long time. Looking ahead, he saw his father, pedaled up to him and asked, "Dad! What are you doing way over here?"

As for holding hands crossing the street? We crossed at corners and we held hands so that we could be better seen by the people in the cars. I'm sorry you feel/felt the need to scare your children.

Apparently, the children in your family never thought to test boundaries or push limits. Quite unusual children, happily obeying the rules without knowing the consequences of breaking them. Here's a hint, children SHOULD be afraid to touch a hot stove, full stop. They SHOULD be afraid to stick a wire into an electrical outlet, full stop. They SHOULD be afraid to handle firearms without careful training and supervision, full stop. They SHOULD be afraid to get into a stranger's car, full stop.

Children ask questions, and the first one they usually ask when told not to do something is "why?". Do the children in your family not do that? Quite strange if so.

 

[Meriweather]

So why would God be so convenient for humans, if humans are in a solar system with plenty of other planets and moons, in a galaxy with billions of solar systems, with billions of galaxies?

I don't fully understand your point about God being convenient. For me, God is someone with whom I have a relationship and who has relationships with innumerable others. In human relationships, there are trillions of parents, extended family members, friends, a best friend, and colleagues. Many. And, I don't understand what many has to do with convenience.

 

[Meriweather]

it would appear that you don't really believe anyone will be eternally separated from God,

Then the appearance is not what you imagine it to be.

Many people seem to have a belief that life in hell will be like it is here on earth and they're going to party with their friends. Why would we not dispel that fantasy and let them believe a lie?

Then it seems many people are wrong.

I say you are an absolutist because you continue to portray me as willing only to preach hell. As I have shown you, that is not true. I want to present the whole story. Why present a savior if there is nothing from which to be saved?

If you want to argue with someone you imagine me to be, have that argument in your mind and leave me out of it.

Nothing from which to be saved!? Now that made me laugh. Perhaps it is because you have always wanted to be saved from hell? I've always wanted to be saved from myself. I want to learn to live as Christ lived and taught. That's my priority. I don't have much time for side trips into hell.

 

[Meriweather]

That's the case, they choose eternal separation, but if they do not understand that is what they are doing, they need to be warned. When the bridge is out, there are warning signs long before you get there so you can stop, turn around, and go a different way. We are to be warning signs. Why would you just stand by and watch the cars heading for disaster and NOT say anything?

Oh. They don't understand what they are doing, but you know what they are doing.

Do you have any faith at all in the Holy Spirit or understand the ways Spirit that blows where he wills? I am merely a sower of seeds, and for me, even that is a great task almost beyond my strength. One of scripture's verses that hits home for me comes from the vine and the branches. Without me you can do nothing.

 

[hadit]

Then the appearance is not what you imagine it to be.

Then it seems many people are wrong.

If you want to argue with someone you imagine me to be, have that argument in your mind and leave me out of it.

Nothing from which to be saved!? Now that made me laugh. Perhaps it is because you have always wanted to be saved from hell? I've always wanted to be saved from myself. I want to learn to live as Christ lived and taught. That's my priority. I don't have much time for side trips into hell.

I rejoice that God in His infinite mercy made a way for me to be rescued from:

My rebellious self
My sinful nature
Eternal separation from Him

And to gain:

Reconciliation with Him
Eternal relationship with Him
Peace and joy the world cannot understand

Don't you even have gratitude that God rescued you from eternity without Him?

 

[hadit]

Oh. They don't understand what they are doing, but you know what they are doing.

Have you no discernment at all where a life of sin leads? From what you've said earlier, you don't really have a firm conviction that anyone will be separated from God for eternity, so of course it wouldn't be a big deal for them to remain in a life of rebellion against Him.

Do you have any faith at all in the Holy Spirit or understand the ways Spirit that blows where he wills? I am merely a sower of seeds, and for me, even that is a great task almost beyond my strength. One of scripture's verses that hits home for me comes from the vine and the branches. Without me you can do nothing.

Of course, but that has nothing to do with people being rejected by God. Do you read where they are thrown out of His presence on judgement day and shrug, as if it means nothing? Even those who THOUGHT they were doing the right thing but had no relationship with Him are thrown out. That doesn't impact you at all and make you want to plead with your loved ones to NOT be in that group?

 

[Meriweather]

Children ask questions, and the first one they usually ask when told not to do something is "why?". Do the children in your family not do that? Quite strange if so.

Shrug. I guess I found it easy to answer their 'why' questions by providing information, not by scaring them. I saw no reason for them to be afraid, by explaining their capabilities for avoiding the dangers around us. The boundaries my children pushed were in athletics, academics, dance, exploring--doing things their own way with their own style.

One day when my youngest came home from high school, she announced that today she learned that parents of teenagers should keep alcoholic beverages under lock and key. We had was always kept alcohol out in the open on top of the cupboards. I asked her, "Do we need to keep it under lock and key?" She said, "No. I guess we're not your usual kids." I hugged her and said, "No, I've never had any usual kids. I have a kid who usually does not turn in homework."

 

[Meriweather]

Don't you even have gratitude that God rescued you from eternity without Him?

Undeserving of a response. Wasn't even worthy of being read.

 

[hadit]

Shrug. I guess I found it easy to answer their 'why' questions by providing information, not by scaring them.

Providing information. What information that does not include, "You will get hurt" do you provide to keep a child away from a hot stove? An exploring child who does not comprehend danger is in danger.

I saw no reason for them to be afraid, by explaining their capabilities for avoiding the dangers around us.

How do you convince them to avoid the dangers around us without alerting them as to what those dangers are? "Don't play with that knife, you could cut yourself", "Don't get in a car with a stranger, he or she might hurt you" and "Don't cross the road by yourself because you might get hit by a car" are all appropriate and proper training. IOW, establishing safe boundaries with warnings of what will likely happen if you cross them is legitimate when dealing with curious children.

The boundaries my children pushed were in athletics, academics, dance, exploring--doing things their own way with their own style.

That is not the typical experience of most parents, who have to deal with rebellious kids who push boundaries to make sure their world is secure and to find out what's on the other side of the fence. I envy you the apparently idyllic experience you had with your kids.

One day when my youngest came home from high school, she announced that today she learned that parents of teenagers should keep alcoholic beverages under lock and key. We had was always kept alcohol out in the open on top of the cupboards. I asked her, "Do we need to keep it under lock and key?" She said, "No. I guess we're not your usual kids." I hugged her and said, "No, I've never had any usual kids. I have a kid who usually does not turn in homework."

That's great and all, but human nature leads most kids into exploring their world and testing boundaries out of curiosity and rebellion. That's why the Bible tells us that "those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children". If you never had to discipline your children (whatever form that discipline takes. Some kids fall to pieces at a stern look, others blithely ignore anything you say until the PlayStation disappears), you need to understand that your experience is atypical.

 

[hadit]

Undeserving of a response. Wasn't even worthy of being read.

Based on what you've written, you're not even sure anyone will face eternity without God, despite reading where He casts out a crowd who think they were doing it right. I don't see anywhere that you've expressed gratitude or joy over God rescuing you from eternity without Him, just at rescuing you from yourself.