Dresden in 1945

[Stryder50]

Nato overthrough Gaddafi using Islamic extremists such as the Islamic fighting group in Bengazi head choppers, we had the blowback in the UK when some members of that group who we had given asylum to years ago blew up a bunch of kids at the Manchester Arena

I never bought that Warsaw pact threat nonsense ever, i have a simple question when was NATO ever used for defence?

When a military is not on offense, than it is on defense.

 

[Mushroom]

The old, An Eye For An Eye. Nice how all you so-called "Right to Life" types quickly hypocrites at the drop of a hat.

Right. Is more of a case of reciprocity.

And what in the hell does that mean, "all you so-called 'right to life' types"? Because I can absolutely guarantee that you have absolutely no idea what my beliefs are in that completely unrelated topic are. In fact, I don't think I have ever discussed that in here because I avoid political topics like the plague.

I suggest you get back into your lane, attempting a random attack because you do not like what somebody says is the kind of thing a Jodie does.

 

[Mushroom]

The Stingers came in towards the end, to break the deadlock of the Soviet Hind's attack helicopters.

They were not even STINGER, very few of those were actually sent. The majority were REDEYE.

Visually, the two look almost the exact same. And in most ways the STINGER was just a major upgrade to the REDEYE. And as is typical when supplying equipment to foreign forces, we started by opening up our bunkers and sending them the oldest equipment we had laying in them. In this case, REDEYE. And only when those had all been used did we start to send the oldest generation of STINGER, which was only marginally better.

But TWA 800 was not a SAM. Because I remember that when it happened, and even then one thing struck me. Only a couple of people reported seeing those "streaks", and they all sounded far more like they were describing something seen in a movie than in real life. And yes, I have actually witnessed surface to air missiles and interceptions first-hand with my own eyes. Almost never do you actually "see" anything, it simply happens too fast. In about the speed of an eyeblink, that missile is going MACH 2.5+, just a hair below 2,000 mph. So people reporting they "saw" one is about as unlikely as somebody claiming they saw an artillery round in flight.

Plus the 747 was at the very edge of the range of a MANPAD. And it is damned near impossible to actually be able to target an aircraft at that kind of range with one. Remember, those things are tracked and fired optically, with the Mk-1 eyeball. No scopes, nothing fancy, just your eye locating and pointing the missile at it. And you can not just wait around all day before you can fire, because earlier I mentioned the BCU. It is fairly similar in size and weight to a can of beer, and has both the battery and liquid argon gas. The operator has to insert the BCU, wait a moment for the gas to reach the seeker head of the missile, and to supercool it so it can track the target.

The operator does not have long, generally about a minute between inserting the BCU and firing the missile. And to put it bluntly, human beings are just not that good at locating, tracking, and holding steady in order to operate a MANPAD at ranges like that. All the operator has is literally a plastic "cross hair" that they use to point at the target. And you have to be steady and precise because that is "generally" pointing at what the seeker head in the missile would see. And as the person firing, you get an audio tone and a kind of vibrator in your cheek that tells you if the seeker is actually seeing the target or not.



Now think on actually trying to do this. We have all seen jet contrails, but when it is at high altitude how often do you actually see the jet itself? The engine? Because that is what you have to do as a human. Aim at the engine of an aircraft at over five miles away, using only your eyes. One of the most annoying things about the above exercise was waiting for some of the aircraft to get close enough to engage. Like the AN-2 COLT. We spotted it a hell of a long ways away, and it was a slow moving crate and we repeatedly had to watch it, wait, and try to acquire it over and over again as the thing does not really put out much heat for a thermal targeting system (and because the body is composed of a lot of cloth they are actually rather "stealthy" when it comes to RADAR).

And I can already "hear" people starting to protest, saying that I am wrong because the military would never have designed the STINGER with that kind of range if it could not be used in that way. Well, odds are whoever would say something like that is not aware that the STINGER is not only used in MANPADS. First of all you have the AVENGER, basically 8 STINGER missiles bolted onto a HMMWV, which includes optics so not just the eye acquiring and tracking the target. And they can also be used in the ATAS system, or "Air-to-Air STINGER". And like this they are commonly mounted on AH-64 Apache helicopters to give it a basic air to air defense capability. And as should be noted, the Apache does have some rather sophisticated optics and other systems to acquire a target with.

The newest generation of AVENGER is being tested right now, and it is quite impressive. In short, the idea is to replace the HMMWV with a Stryker, an add in even better optics as well as a laser designator. This will allow an operator to use the missile to hit a target that has no heat signature at all. Such as an electric drone.

Yes, I admit I am a kind of "wonk" when it comes to air defense systems. But what can I say, that was my career for several years. And even though I am retired, I still try to keep up on the current trends and the path of the various systems.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I never bought that Warsaw pact threat nonsense ever, i have a simple question when was NATO ever used for defence?

When was the last time the commies invaded a NATO member?

 

[0311]

Right. Is more of a case of reciprocity.

And what in the hell does that mean, "all you so-called 'right to life' types"? Because I can absolutely guarantee that you have absolutely no idea what my beliefs are in that completely unrelated topic are. In fact, I don't think I have ever discussed that in here because I avoid political topics like the plague.

I suggest you get back into your lane, attempting a random attack because you do not like what somebody says is the kind of thing a Jodie does.

When you claim to have a value ("Right to Life") you are supposed to live that value. A value is something that you treasure. A value is something you hold on to regardless of the circumstances. Dresden was murder for the sake of murder. You do not value life, all you are is just in long mealy mouth cowards to shout slogans and know you do not mean them. You're just another MAGA MAAGOT lying POS

 

[otto105]

When was the last time the commies invaded a NATO member?

Which is why NATO as important and effective.

 

[Mushroom]

When you claim to have a value ("Right to Life") you are supposed to live that value. A value is something that you treasure. A value is something you hold on to regardless of the circumstances. Dresden was murder for the sake of murder. You do not value life, all you are is just in long mealy mouth cowards to shout slogans and know you do not mean them. You're just another MAGA MAAGOT lying POS

And when did I claim that? Come on now, when did I claim that? This is known as "projecting", or "putting words in other people's mouths".

You have absolutely no idea what my beliefs are in a political manner, and that is 100% obvious by what you are saying. Because I am pointing out you are wrong, you are automatically projecting that I therefore am something that you hate, which can not be farther from the truth. Because I can guarantee that you have absolutely no idea what my political beliefs are, not that they would matter worth a damn in a historical discussion.

As I said, you need to learn to stay in your own lane. You are coming off far more like a civilian or pogue "03-wannabe" than what you are claiming you are.

But please, I have been posting here for well over a decade now. Find a single post where I ever claimed to support President Trump. Or for that matter President Biden or President Obama. If you knew anything about me at all, I am a "Militant Moderate" and am known to eschew politics. And you keep spouting out that I have beliefs, fine. Put up or shut up. Quote a single post where I ever supported any President in the last decade and a half.

 

[Stryder50]

They were not even STINGER, very few of those were actually sent. The majority were REDEYE.

Visually, the two look almost the exact same. And in most ways the STINGER was just a major upgrade to the REDEYE. And as is typical when supplying equipment to foreign forces, we started by opening up our bunkers and sending them the oldest equipment we had laying in them. In this case, REDEYE. And only when those had all been used did we start to send the oldest generation of STINGER, which was only marginally better.

But TWA 800 was not a SAM. Because I remember that when it happened, and even then one thing struck me. Only a couple of people reported seeing those "streaks", and they all sounded far more like they were describing something seen in a movie than in real life. And yes, I have actually witnessed surface to air missiles and interceptions first-hand with my own eyes. Almost never do you actually "see" anything, it simply happens too fast. In about the speed of an eyeblink, that missile is going MACH 2.5+, just a hair below 2,000 mph. So people reporting they "saw" one is about as unlikely as somebody claiming they saw an artillery round in flight.

Plus the 747 was at the very edge of the range of a MANPAD. And it is damned near impossible to actually be able to target an aircraft at that kind of range with one. Remember, those things are tracked and fired optically, with the Mk-1 eyeball. No scopes, nothing fancy, just your eye locating and pointing the missile at it. And you can not just wait around all day before you can fire, because earlier I mentioned the BCU. It is fairly similar in size and weight to a can of beer, and has both the battery and liquid argon gas. The operator has to insert the BCU, wait a moment for the gas to reach the seeker head of the missile, and to supercool it so it can track the target.

The operator does not have long, generally about a minute between inserting the BCU and firing the missile. And to put it bluntly, human beings are just not that good at locating, tracking, and holding steady in order to operate a MANPAD at ranges like that. All the operator has is literally a plastic "cross hair" that they use to point at the target. And you have to be steady and precise because that is "generally" pointing at what the seeker head in the missile would see. And as the person firing, you get an audio tone and a kind of vibrator in your cheek that tells you if the seeker is actually seeing the target or not.



Now think on actually trying to do this. We have all seen jet contrails, but when it is at high altitude how often do you actually see the jet itself? The engine? Because that is what you have to do as a human. Aim at the engine of an aircraft at over five miles away, using only your eyes. One of the most annoying things about the above exercise was waiting for some of the aircraft to get close enough to engage. Like the AN-2 COLT. We spotted it a hell of a long ways away, and it was a slow moving crate and we repeatedly had to watch it, wait, and try to acquire it over and over again as the thing does not really put out much heat for a thermal targeting system (and because the body is composed of a lot of cloth they are actually rather "stealthy" when it comes to RADAR).

And I can already "hear" people starting to protest, saying that I am wrong because the military would never have designed the STINGER with that kind of range if it could not be used in that way. Well, odds are whoever would say something like that is not aware that the STINGER is not only used in MANPADS. First of all you have the AVENGER, basically 8 STINGER missiles bolted onto a HMMWV, which includes optics so not just the eye acquiring and tracking the target. And they can also be used in the ATAS system, or "Air-to-Air STINGER". And like this they are commonly mounted on AH-64 Apache helicopters to give it a basic air to air defense capability. And as should be noted, the Apache does have some rather sophisticated optics and other systems to acquire a target with.

The newest generation of AVENGER is being tested right now, and it is quite impressive. In short, the idea is to replace the HMMWV with a Stryker, an add in even better optics as well as a laser designator. This will allow an operator to use the missile to hit a target that has no heat signature at all. Such as an electric drone.

Yes, I admit I am a kind of "wonk" when it comes to air defense systems. But what can I say, that was my career for several years. And even though I am retired, I still try to keep up on the current trends and the path of the various systems.

Thanks for the input.
A couple of pointers;
EXCERPT from my earlier link;

Although considerable discrepancies existed among the many witness accounts, most had seen a "streak of light," described by 38 of 258 witnesses as ascending,[2]: 232  moving to a point where a large fireball appeared. Several witnesses reported that the fireball divided into two parts as it descended toward the water.[2]: 3  Intense public interest arose regarding the witness reports, as did much speculation that the reported streak of light was a missile that had struck TWA 800, causing the airplane to explode.[2]: 262  These witness accounts were a major reason for the initiation and duration of the FBI's criminal investigation.

TWA Flight 800 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also that link says the 747 had just got permission to climb to 15,000 feet. one of first reports was from a nearby other aircraft at about 16,000.

It's not mentioned in that link (as far as I recall), but back then, shortly after the event, during the searches, one of the boats claimed to have recovered something that looked like a "pop can" with some wiring/contact points on it. This was a civilian fishing boat IIRC, and thinking it was junk, they tossed back into the sea. Only after was it speculated that this might have been a BCU.

I appreciate the difficulties of operating a MANPAD that you mention, but it's possible that if such was used, it likely was operated by someone experienced with such. Also they may have acquired a "fresh" BCU for the shot.

As for spotting jet airliners at altitude, I do that quite often here where I live, if it's clear skies. Along with being in the flight path of a few large airports (Vancouver and Abbotsford, B.C. and Bellingham -BLI) seems we are under some major airways from/to the N. Pacific (Asia) and central USA. Point is, while these jets are to high to identify type, I can spot them and track them with my MK-1.

I admit that the 747 was at the limit of published range of MANPADs, but as I suggested, the exploding empty fuel tank explanation also has some questionable aspects, about as many as the MANPAD. BTW, I recall also back then there was some speculation of it being hit with a missile fired from a USA military aircraft, but that idea didn't wash.

The fact that an Israeli 747 was scheduled for takeoff right after TWA 800, it's possible that was the intended target.

Anyway, too many questions not clearly answered from my view. Main one being why no other 747 have had exploded fuel tanks.

 

[Deadstick]

When was the last time the commies invaded a NATO member?

They didn't but Nato has attacked several Countries, now try answering my question.

 

[Deadstick]

Which is why NATO as important and effective.

Garbage! any evidence Russia ever intended attacking a Nato Country?

 

[Deadstick]

When a military is not on offense, than it is on defense.

What the hell are you on about?

 

[Mushroom]

Main one being why no other 747 have had exploded fuel tanks.

How many DC-10s had an engine fall off in flight?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Wow are you out there where the busses don’t run. There aren’t any anti-Jew or anti-Israeli corporate news media outlets in the US. In fact, most of US media is controlled by Zionists, news and entertainment media.

And, our politicians are nearly completely controlled by the Israeli lobby. No doubt you approve. Traitor!

If you think Zionism and Judaism are synonymous, you have swallowed a package of lies wrapped as a treacherous gift; for Jews with a conscience know that the Zionist project is a terrible stain on their name.

Indeed,this clown has got to be at the top of the list as the most stupid fuck posters I have ever encountered at these boards,not only is he fucking stupid that Reagan ran the most corrupt administration ever at his time but dense about gaddafi,that NATO is a warmonger but about the Zionist controlled Jewish mafia here in the states as well,fucking traiter is the understatement.

Everyone,e he can’t refute pesky facts like wall the ones I just mentioned,his lame comebacks in defeat are dismissing facts as fake news. Anytime he posts a fake news means you hit the nail on the head so I’m honored when I get one from him,means I hit a homer out of the ballpark.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

What the hell are you on about?

Be prepared for nonstop blathering if you are expecting an answer on that or thst he will use Wikipedia or a movie from Hollywood as his source of evidence.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Indeed,this clown has got to be at the top of the list as the most stupid fuck posters I have ever encountered at these boards,not only is he fucking stupid that Reagan ran the most corrupt administration ever at his time but dense about gaddafi,that NATO is a warmonger but about the Zionist controlled Jewish mafia here in the states as well,fucking traiter is the understatement.

Everyone,e he can’t refute pesky facts like wall the ones I just mentioned,his lame comebacks in defeat are dismissing facts as fake news. Anytime he posts a fake news means you hit the nail on the head so I’m honored when I get one from him,means I hit a homer out of the ballpark.

I got my wish,I hit a homerun out of the ballpark being my fake news bit from stryder gipper I’m not going to reply to his next fake news to this post or I would just be repeating myself,point has been made.

 

[Stryder50]

How many DC-10s had an engine fall off in flight?

Not quite the same thing, since vapors exploding due to electrical spark aren't same thin as engines, or parts of, "falling off".
However, the DC-10 does have a checkered history;

Why Did The McDonnell Douglas DC-10 Crash So Frequently?​

Why Did The McDonnell Douglas DC-10 Crash So Frequently?

The aircraft suffered more from its reputation than its design flaws.

simpleflying.com

When an engine ripped off a DC-10 at O'Hare it killed 273 people, a​

McDonnell Douglas DC-10 - Wikipedia​

Yet, the aircraft also serves with the USAF;

McDonnell Douglas KC-10 Extender - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And as a wildfire bomber;

DC-10 Air Tanker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not just the DC-10

The moment one of the engines of IL-76 falls off mid flight ... - Red​

 

[Stryder50]

I got my wish,I hit a homerun out of the ballpark being my fake news bit from stryder gipper I’m not going to reply to his next fake news to this post or I would just be repeating myself,point has been made.

From the chap who just gave me a dozen "fake news" on posts that were mostly factual and had little poster opinion.
BTW, when I have time I'll return the quid pro quo.

Thing is, you, "gipper" and a few others post opinions reflecting your Leftist/socialist bias & programing i.e. neither objective or fact based.
Insult to injury you think your Left-wingnut programming and views are the "only truth".

Komrade, you get what you earn.

FWIW, basically either the disagree=thumbs down, or the "fake news" are the extent of marking a posts as lies, ignorance, subjective perspective or bias, etc.

 

[Stryder50]

What the hell are you on about?

Study more military history and you might get a clue, Komrade Deadwood.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Which is why NATO as important and effective.

Tell that to the commie twat.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They didn't but Nato has attacked several Countries, now try answering my question.

They didn't

Because NATO defended against that. You're welcome!