Zebra
Gold Member
do you know what happened in Dresden today in 1945?
what do you think about it …. if you know about it?
what do you think about it …. if you know about it?
Dresden in 1945
- Thread starter Zebra
- Start date
Stryder50
Platinum Member
Don't expect everyone to be sitting on the edge of their seats waiting to read or post on this board. Many have real world-3D lives.
Usually one should give a day or several before doing the "no comments?" hand wringing.
Stryder50
Platinum Member
Most people who know of it, or anything about it likely have through this;
Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death is a 1969 semi-autobiographic science fiction-infused anti-war novel by Kurt Vonnegut. It follows the life and experiences of Billy Pilgrim, from his early years, to his time as an American soldier and chaplain's assistant during World War II, to the post-war years, with Billy occasionally traveling through time. The text centers on Billy's capture by the German Army and his survival of the Allied firebombing of Dresden as a prisoner of war, an experience which Vonnegut himself lived through as an American serviceman. The work has been called an example of "unmatched moral clarity"[3] and "one of the most enduring anti-war novels of all time".[3]
...
Slaughterhouse-Five - Wikipedia
Zebra
Gold Member
- Thread starter
- #7
i have not read that book yet …. but i have read about it.Most people who know of it, or anything about it likely have through this;
Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death is a 1969 semi-autobiographic science fiction-infused anti-war novel by Kurt Vonnegut. It follows the life and experiences of Billy Pilgrim, from his early years, to his time as an American soldier and chaplain's assistant during World War II, to the post-war years, with Billy occasionally traveling through time. The text centers on Billy's capture by the German Army and his survival of the Allied firebombing of Dresden as a prisoner of war, an experience which Vonnegut himself lived through as an American serviceman. The work has been called an example of "unmatched moral clarity"[3] and "one of the most enduring anti-war novels of all time".[3]
...
Slaughterhouse-Five - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
it must be a great book!
BackAgain
Neutronium Member & truth speaker #StopBrandon
The city got fire bombed.
Also, the allies did some serious fire bombing of large populated swaths of Japan.
War is horror. But nowadays, when an enemy hides intentionally in a civilian populated area, many folks seem content to accuse the nation which is defending itself of “war crimes” and committing a “holocaust” for waging war in a slightly related manner.
Liberals have no honor.
Last edited:
Stryder50
Platinum Member
Many who have studied military history, especially World War Two are familiar with use of incendiary devices/bombs.
Fire in one form or another has been used in warfare almost form the inception of War.
Some select excerpts from a Wiki article;
....
Incendiary weapons, incendiary devices, incendiary munitions, or incendiary bombs are weapons designed to start fires or destroy sensitive equipment using fire (and sometimes used as anti-personnel weaponry), using materials such as napalm, thermite, magnesium powder, chlorine trifluoride, or white phosphorus.[1] Though colloquially often known as bombs, they are not explosives but in fact are designed to slow the process of chemical reactions and use ignition rather than detonation to start or maintain the reaction. Napalm, for example, is petroleum especially thickened with certain chemicals into a 'gel' to slow, but not stop, combustion, releasing energy over a longer time than an explosive device. In the case of napalm, the gel adheres to surfaces and resists suppression.
A range of early thermal weapons were utilized by ancient, medieval/post-classical and early modern armies, including hot pitch, oil, resin, animal fat and other similar compounds. Substances such as quicklime and sulfur could be toxic and blinding. Incendiary mixtures, such as the petroleum-based Greek fire, were launched by throwing machines or administered through a siphon. Sulfur- and oil-soaked materials were sometimes ignited and thrown at the enemy, or attached to spears, arrows or bolts, and fired by hand or machine. Some siege techniques—such as mining and boring—relied on combustibles and fire to complete the collapse of walls and structures.
Towards the latter part of the period, gunpowder was invented, which increased the sophistication of the weapons, starting with fire lances.
....
A German World War II 1 kg incendiary bomb
Incendiary bombs were used extensively in World War II as an effective bombing weapon, often in a conjunction with high-explosive bombs.[8] Probably the most famous incendiary attacks are the bombing of Dresden and the bombing of Tokyo on 10 March 1945. ...
...
The German Luftwaffe started the war using the 1918-designed one-kilogram magnesium alloy B-1E Elektronbrandbombe; later modifications included the addition of a small explosive charge intended to penetrate the roof of any building which it landed on. Racks holding 36 of these bombs were developed, four of which could, in turn, be fitted to an electrically triggered dispenser so that a single He 111 bomber could carry 1,152 incendiary bombs, or more usually a mixed load. Less successful was the Flammenbombe, a 250 kg or 500 kg high explosive bomb case filled with an inflammable oil mixture, which often failed to detonate and was withdrawn in January 1941.[10]
In World War II, incendiaries were principally developed in order to destroy the many small, decentralised war industries located (often intentionally) throughout vast tracts of city land in an effort to escape destruction by conventionally aimed high-explosive bombs. Nevertheless, the civilian destruction caused by such weapons quickly earned them a reputation as terror weapons with the targeted populations. The Nazi regime began the campaign of incendiary bombings at the start of World War II with the bombing of Warsaw, and continued with the London Blitz and the bombing of Moscow, among other cities. Later, an extensive reprisal was enacted by the Allies in the strategic bombing campaign that led to the near-annihilation of many German cities. In the Pacific War, during the last seven months of strategic bombing by B-29 Superfortresses in the air war against Japan, a change to firebombing tactics resulted in the death of 500,000 Japanese and the homelessness of five million more. Sixty-seven Japanese cities lost significant areas to incendiary attacks. The most deadly single bombing raid in history was Operation Meetinghouse, an incendiary attack that killed some 100,000 Tokyo residents in one night.
....
en.wikipedia.org
Fire in one form or another has been used in warfare almost form the inception of War.
Some select excerpts from a Wiki article;
....
Incendiary weapons, incendiary devices, incendiary munitions, or incendiary bombs are weapons designed to start fires or destroy sensitive equipment using fire (and sometimes used as anti-personnel weaponry), using materials such as napalm, thermite, magnesium powder, chlorine trifluoride, or white phosphorus.[1] Though colloquially often known as bombs, they are not explosives but in fact are designed to slow the process of chemical reactions and use ignition rather than detonation to start or maintain the reaction. Napalm, for example, is petroleum especially thickened with certain chemicals into a 'gel' to slow, but not stop, combustion, releasing energy over a longer time than an explosive device. In the case of napalm, the gel adheres to surfaces and resists suppression.
Pre-modern history
Main article: Early thermal weaponsA range of early thermal weapons were utilized by ancient, medieval/post-classical and early modern armies, including hot pitch, oil, resin, animal fat and other similar compounds. Substances such as quicklime and sulfur could be toxic and blinding. Incendiary mixtures, such as the petroleum-based Greek fire, were launched by throwing machines or administered through a siphon. Sulfur- and oil-soaked materials were sometimes ignited and thrown at the enemy, or attached to spears, arrows or bolts, and fired by hand or machine. Some siege techniques—such as mining and boring—relied on combustibles and fire to complete the collapse of walls and structures.
Towards the latter part of the period, gunpowder was invented, which increased the sophistication of the weapons, starting with fire lances.
....
Development and use in World War II
A German World War II 1 kg incendiary bombIncendiary bombs were used extensively in World War II as an effective bombing weapon, often in a conjunction with high-explosive bombs.[8] Probably the most famous incendiary attacks are the bombing of Dresden and the bombing of Tokyo on 10 March 1945. ...
...
The German Luftwaffe started the war using the 1918-designed one-kilogram magnesium alloy B-1E Elektronbrandbombe; later modifications included the addition of a small explosive charge intended to penetrate the roof of any building which it landed on. Racks holding 36 of these bombs were developed, four of which could, in turn, be fitted to an electrically triggered dispenser so that a single He 111 bomber could carry 1,152 incendiary bombs, or more usually a mixed load. Less successful was the Flammenbombe, a 250 kg or 500 kg high explosive bomb case filled with an inflammable oil mixture, which often failed to detonate and was withdrawn in January 1941.[10]
In World War II, incendiaries were principally developed in order to destroy the many small, decentralised war industries located (often intentionally) throughout vast tracts of city land in an effort to escape destruction by conventionally aimed high-explosive bombs. Nevertheless, the civilian destruction caused by such weapons quickly earned them a reputation as terror weapons with the targeted populations. The Nazi regime began the campaign of incendiary bombings at the start of World War II with the bombing of Warsaw, and continued with the London Blitz and the bombing of Moscow, among other cities. Later, an extensive reprisal was enacted by the Allies in the strategic bombing campaign that led to the near-annihilation of many German cities. In the Pacific War, during the last seven months of strategic bombing by B-29 Superfortresses in the air war against Japan, a change to firebombing tactics resulted in the death of 500,000 Japanese and the homelessness of five million more. Sixty-seven Japanese cities lost significant areas to incendiary attacks. The most deadly single bombing raid in history was Operation Meetinghouse, an incendiary attack that killed some 100,000 Tokyo residents in one night.
....
Incendiary device - Wikipedia
Last edited:
Stryder50
Platinum Member
One of Vonnegut's better ones. But he may have been a bit overrated as an author compared to his peers.
Stryder50
Platinum Member
A couple of tables for context;
U.S. Air Force table showing tonnage of bombs dropped by the Allies on Germany's seven largest cities during the war;[8] the final column shows that of the seven cities, the tonnage dropped on Dresden was the lowest per capita.
Table of the air raids on Dresden by the Allies during World War II[8]
A map also;
European front lines during Dresden raids.
white = German controlled territory
pink = Allied territory
red = Recent Allied advances
gray = Neutral
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
| City | Population (1939) | Tonnage | Tonnage per 100,000 inhabitants | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| American | British | Total | |||
| Berlin | 4,339,000 | 22,090 | 45,517 | 67,607 | 1,558 |
| Hamburg | 1,129,000 | 17,104 | 22,583 | 39,687 | 3,515 |
| Munich | 841,000 | 11,471 | 7,858 | 19,329 | 2,298 |
| Cologne | 772,000 | 10,211 | 34,712 | 44,923 | 5,819 |
| Leipzig | 707,000 | 5,410 | 6,206 | 11,616 | 1,643 |
| Essen | 667,000 | 1,518 | 36,420 | 37,938 | 5,688 |
| Dresden | 642,000 | 4,441 | 2,659 | 7,100 | 1,106 |
Table of the air raids on Dresden by the Allies during World War II[8]
| Date | Target area | Force | Aircraft | High explosive bombs on target (tons) | Incendiary bombs on target (tons) | Total tonnage |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 7 October 1944 | Marshalling yards | US 8th AF | 30 | 72.5 | — | 72.5 |
| 16 January 1945 | Marshalling yards | US 8th AF | 133 | 279.8 | 41.6 | 321.4 |
| 13/14 February 1945 | City area | RAF BC | 772 | 1477.7 | 1181.6 | 2659.3 |
| 14 February 1945 | Marshalling yards | US 8th AF | 316 | 487.7 | 294.3 | 782.0 |
| 15 February 1945 | Marshalling yards | US 8th AF | 211 | 465.6 | — | 465.6 |
| 2 March 1945 | Marshalling yards | US 8th AF | 406 | 940.3 | 140.5 | 1080.8 |
| 17 April 1945 | Marshalling yards | US 8th AF | 572 | 1526.4 | 164.5 | 1690.9 |
| 17 April 1945 | Industrial area | US 8th AF | 8 | 28.0 | — | 28.0 |
A map also;
European front lines during Dresden raids.
white = German controlled territory
pink = Allied territory
red = Recent Allied advances
gray = Neutral
Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia
Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia
AMart
Diamond Member
- Dec 29, 2020
- 12,956
- 13,386
- 2,288
- Banned
- #13
Horrible. USA had no business being in WW2. We knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. FDR had ships moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor prior hoping for maximum damage and death as justification for entering the war. Nothing more than bailing out the Rothchilds and the American Federal Reserve scum. Virtually all of Latin America was neutral (as was the USA) or pro Germany.
British Intelligence had 2 floors of free office space, courtesy of Rockefeller, in NYC to engage in pro war propaganda.
British Intelligence had 2 floors of free office space, courtesy of Rockefeller, in NYC to engage in pro war propaganda.
Stryder50
Platinum Member
PART ONE:
OMG!
Sorry, no offense intended, but it never ceases to amaze me the depth of ignorance (and stupidity?) of many regards what is recent history.
May be no fault of your own to some degree since the last few decades have seen a decline in teaching history in the USA education system and you appear an example of the impact of that.
The USA had been involved in "WW2" long before the Pearl Harbor attack. FDR was aware of the majority of Americans aversion to getting embroiled in another "European War", but the travesties of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in Europe were being matched in East Asia by Imperial Japan. Not to mention the aggression(attacks and conquest) by the Soviet Union against the Baltic Nations and Finland during this time. From Sept.1939 to June 1941 it looked as if three large and major tyrannical dictatorships (Germany, Japan, Russia) were out to carve up the world between them and enslave most of the developed and developing nations along the way. Not to mention Fascist Italy was a fourth member of the gang grabbing the scraps left by the Big Three.
Also, by the time of Sept. 1939 it was known by many in the world that Nazi Germany was placing Jews and other "undesirables" in concentration camps and substantial and believable "rumors" were about regarding the death camp exterminations.
By the Fall of 1940 England was alone in Europe as an opposition to Nazi/Fascist conquest/enslavement and similar for China in Asia opposing Imperial Japan's war and territory grabs from China. Meanwhile, when most of the world was distracted by Germany, Japan, and Italy, Russian invaded and occupied the Baltic States and started a war against Finland.
Occupation of the Baltic states - Wikipedia
While a majority in the USA wanted to stay out of these wars, anyone with economic knowledge would know that with the USA involved in foreign~global trade for resources and markets, impacts would start to be felt and grow in negative effects.By early 1941 the situation with regard to Britain and China ability to resist the Axis attacks was rapidly diminishing and and becoming rather desperate. Neither had any money left for the "cash and carry" policy of the USA to purchase weapons, food, and supplies and looked to be about to collapse and be conquered, knocked out of the War.
Then came the inspiration of Lend-Lease. ...
Markle
Diamond Member
Yes.
Stryder50
Platinum Member
PART TWO:
From at least Sept. 1939, the USA had become increasingly embroiled, whether wanting to or not, in the growing global conflict(s). The USA went through a progressive "escalation" of involvement, trying to balance helping out the nations we saw as our friends, blocking the aggression's of the Axis Powers, and trying to defuse what looked like a growing global conflict.
EXCERPTS:
....
Non-interventionism and neutrality
British pupils wave for the camera as they receive plates of American bacon and eggs from Lend-LeaseThe 1930s began with one of the world's greatest economic depressions—which had started in the United States—and the later recession of 1937–1938 (although minor relative to the Great Depression) was otherwise also one of the worst of the 20th century. Following the Nye Committee[nb 1] hearings, as well as influential books of the time, such as Merchants of Death, both 1934, the United States Congress adopted several Neutrality Acts in the 1930s, motivated by non-interventionism—following the aftermath of its costly involvement in World War I (the war debts were still not paid off), and seeking to ensure that the country would not become entangled in foreign conflicts again. The Neutrality Acts of 1935, 1936, and 1937 intended to keep the United States out of war, by making it illegal for Americans to sell or transport arms, or other war materials to warring nations—neither to aggressors, nor to defenders.[7]
Cash and carry
Main article: Cash and carry (World War II)In 1939 however—as Germany, Japan, and Italy pursued aggressive, militaristic policies—President Roosevelt wanted more flexibility to help contain Axis aggression. He suggested amending the act to allow warring nations to purchase military goods, arms and munitions if they paid cash and bore the risks of transporting the goods on non-American ships, a policy that would favor Britain and France. Initially, this proposal failed, but after Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland in September, Congress passed the Neutrality Act of 1939 ending the munitions embargo on a "cash and carry" basis. The passage of the 1939 amendment to the previous Neutrality Acts marked the beginning of a congressional shift away from isolationism, making a first step toward interventionism.[7]
After the Fall of France during June 1940, the British Commonwealth and Empire were the only forces engaged in war against Germany and Italy, until the Italian invasion of Greece. Britain had been paying for its materiel with gold as part of the "cash and carry" program, as required by the U.S. Neutrality Acts of the 1930s, but by 1941 it had liquidated a large part of its overseas holdings and its gold reserves were becoming depleted in paying for materiel from the United States.[8]
During this same period, the U.S. government began to mobilize for total war, instituting the first-ever peacetime draft and a fivefold increase in the defense budget (from $2 billion to $10 billion).[9] The Two-Ocean Navy Act of July 1940 set in motion a rapid expansion of the United States Navy. In the meantime, Great Britain was running out of liquid currency and asked not to be forced to sell off British assets. On December 7, 1940, its Prime Minister Winston Churchill pressed Roosevelt in a 15-page letter for American help.[nb 2][10] Sympathetic to the British plight, but hampered by public opinion and the Neutrality Acts, which forbade arms sales on credit or the lending of money to belligerent nations, Roosevelt eventually came up with the idea of "lend–lease". As one Roosevelt biographer has characterized it: "If there was no practical alternative, there was certainly no moral one either. Britain and the Commonwealth were carrying the battle for all civilization, and the overwhelming majority of Americans, led in the late election by their president, wished to help them."[11] As the President himself put it, "There can be no reasoning with incendiary bombs."[12]
....
In his December 29, 1940 Fireside Chat radio broadcast, President Roosevelt proclaimed the United States would be the "Arsenal of Democracy" and proposed selling munitions to Britain and Canada.[12] Isolationists were strongly opposed, warning it would result in American involvement with what was considered by most Americans as an essentially European conflict. In time, opinion shifted as increasing numbers of Americans began to consider the advantage of funding the British war against Germany, while staying free of the hostilities themselves.[17] Propaganda showing the devastation of British cities during The Blitz, as well as popular depictions of Germans as savage also rallied public opinion to the Allies, especially after Germany conquered France.
Lend-Lease proposal
After a decade of neutrality, Roosevelt knew that the change to Allied support must be gradual, given the support for isolationism in the country. Originally, the American policy was to help the British but not join the war. During early February 1941, a Gallup poll revealed that 54% of Americans were in favor of giving aid to the British without qualifications of Lend-Lease. A further 15% were in favor of qualifications such as: "If it doesn't get us into war," or "If the British can give us some security for what we give them." Only 22% were unequivocally against the President's proposal. When poll participants were asked their party affiliation, the poll revealed a political divide: 69% of Democrats were unequivocally in favor of Lend-Lease, whereas only 38% of Republicans favored the bill without qualification. At least one poll spokesperson also noted that "approximately twice as many Republicans" gave "qualified answers as ... Democrats."[18]Opposition to the Lend-Lease bill was strongest among isolationist Republicans in Congress, who feared the measure would be "the longest single step this nation has yet taken toward direct involvement in the war abroad". When the House of Representatives finally took a roll call vote on February 8, 1941, the 260 to 165 vote was largely along party lines. Democrats voted 238 to 25 in favor and Republicans 24 in favor and 135 against.[19]
The vote in the Senate, which occurred on March 8, revealed a similar partisan difference: 49 Democrats (79 percent) voted "aye" with only 13 Democrats (21 percent) voting "nay". In contrast, 17 Republicans (63 percent) voted "nay" while 10 Senate Republicans (37 percent) sided with the Democrats to pass the bill.[20]
President Roosevelt signed the Lend-Lease bill into law on March 11, 1941. It permitted him to "sell, transfer title to, exchange, lease, lend, or otherwise dispose of, to any such government [whose defense the President deems vital to the defense of the United States] any defense article." In April, this policy was extended to China,[21] and in October to the Soviet Union, which was attacked by Germany on 22 June 1941. Roosevelt approved $1 billion in Lend-Lease aid to Britain at the end of October 1941.
....
Lend-Lease, formally the Lend-Lease Act and introduced as An Act to Promote the Defense of the United States (Pub. L.Tooltip Public Law (United States) 77–11, H.R. 1776, 55 Stat. 31, enacted March 11, 1941),[1][2] was a policy under which the United States supplied the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, France, Republic of China, and other Allied nations of the Second World War with food, oil, and materiel between 1941 and 1945. The aid was given free of charge on the basis that such help was essential for the defense of the United States.[2]
The Lend-Lease Act was signed into law on March 11, 1941, and ended on September 20, 1945. A total of $50.1 billion (equivalent to $773 billion in 2022 when accounting for inflation) worth of supplies was shipped, or 17% of the total war expenditures of the U.S.[3] In all, $31.4 billion went to the United Kingdom, $11.3 billion to the Soviet Union, $3.2 billion to France, $1.6 billion to China, and the remaining $2.6 billion to other Allies. Roosevelt's top foreign policy advisor Harry Hopkins had effective control over Lend-Lease, making sure it was in alignment with Roosevelt's foreign policy goals.[4]
Materiel delivered under the act was supplied at no cost, to be used until returned or destroyed. In practice, most equipment was destroyed, although some hardware (such as ships) was returned after the war. Supplies that arrived after the termination date were sold to the United Kingdom at a large discount for £1.075 billion, using long-term loans from the United States, which were finally repaid in 2006. Similarly, the Soviet Union repaid $722 million in 1971, with the remainder of the debt written off.
Reverse Lend-Lease to the United States totalled $7.8 billion. Of this, $6.8 billion came from the British and the Commonwealth. Canada also aided the United Kingdom and other Allies with the Billion Dollar Gift and Mutual Aid totalling $3.4 billion in supplies and services (equivalent to $61 billion in 2020) .[5][6]
Lend-Lease effectively ended the United States' pretense of neutrality which had been enshrined in the Neutrality Acts of the 1930s. It was a decisive step away from non-interventionist policy and toward open support for the Allies. Lend-Lease's precise significance to Allied victory in World War II is debated. Stalin told Nikita Khrushchev that Lend-Lease enabled the Soviet Union to defeat Germany.
.......
Lend-Lease - Wikipedia
Stryder50
Platinum Member
History shows that majorities are seldom correct or right in what should occur. Often make things worse once reality needs to be dealt with.
Stryder50
Platinum Member
Wrong!
That "80%" (which you fail to document!) started to shrink in the two plus years between Sept. 1939 and Dec. 1941. As shown in excerpts and links above.
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