Could The Trinity Doctrine Be Wrong?

[Thors Provoni]

Another goes to IGNORE

 

[surada]

Another goes to IGNORE

I'm sorry you are upset. Isaiah is writing about Israel .. the suffering servant.

 

[HaShev]

Daniel wasn't written until the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean Revolt.. around 168 BC.

My Daniel analogy was about the difference between recognizing the message/messenger as a seperate person not claiming it one in the same with the conveyer or oracle.
Another example Moses is speaking to the malakh of the Lord not claiming to be as one with the Malakh of the Lord.

 

[surada]

My Daniel analogy was about the difference between recognizing the message/messenger as a seperate person not claiming it one in the same with the conveyer or oracle.
Another example Moses is speaking to the malakh of the Lord not claiming to be as one with the Malakh of the Lord.

Daniel was written by a committee so its really not an apt comparison, but I get your point.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Daniel was written by a committee so its really not an apt comparison, but I get your point.

Link?

 

[HaShev]

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is God. The Holy Ghost is God, as it says in Acts 5.

Know it.
Live it.

>>Isa 9:6
>>For unto us a child is born, unto us a son >>is given
=Ahaz's son
Remember, a sign does Ahaz no good 600 years after he's dead, signs are imminent.

>>> and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
His son King Hezekiah had his fathers kingdom on his shoulder and was deemed a father figure for protecting them by defeating Assyria
Thus called; The Prince(one who sacrifices for others) of Peace.

If you were to remove this from the historical and make it spiritual you'd still have a problem.
His counsel according to
scrolls commentary
(Hezekiah Apochryphon 4Q 470), was through the intercession of the arch malakh Michael.
And the sons name given in *Isaiah 7 in Hebrew would be...*cough-cough*
"HaShev".

Source *Isaiah 7:3 the son Isaiah is refering to is named Shear ‘Yshv’ (proper transliteration (pronounced hashev=return because Y=H sound) Shear ‘Yshv’ means a remnant shall ‘return’ (HaShev in Hebrew).

 

[surada]

Link?

Episcopius

Although set during the 6th century BCE, the Book of Daniel was written in reaction to the persecution of the Jews by the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167–164 BCE.
Daniel's final vision - Wikipedia

Daniel's final vision - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[HaShev]

Episcopius

Although set during the 6th century BCE, the Book of Daniel was written in reaction to the persecution of the Jews by the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167–164 BCE.
Daniel's final vision - Wikipedia

Daniel's final vision - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But since the oral stories are sometime the base later written, if you believe that to be the case on Daniel (written after the fact) there can still be earlier persona & oral traditions mixed with after the fact events.

 

[surada]

But since the oral stories are sometime the base later written, if you believe that to be the case on Daniel (written after the fact) there can still be earlier persona & oral traditions mixed with after the fact events.

There is a Syrian poem called Dan'el a thousand years earlier that some scholars think was the inspiration for the "setting" of the Book of Daniel. Its Canaanite and was discovered in the thousands of tablets they found at Ras Shamra.

 

[HaShev]

There is a Syrian poem called Dan'el a thousand years earlier that some scholars think was the inspiration for the "setting" of the Book of Daniel. Its Canaanite and was discovered in the thousands of tablets they found at Ras Shamra.

Didn't the Tribe of Dan go as far east as Asian regions, for all we know Dan is based partially on a tribal oral tradition. This is why we don't revere or make image to characters, as it's more about the lessons in the stories and seeing emulations and reflections in the present and future, than attention to the characters.

 

[Road Runner]

But, it does to believers, because we know we can't prove what God is, we can only understand Him the best we can, and then come to know Him by what we know while admitting the mystery.

I disagree with that. Just because I'm confused by the trinity doesn't make me an unbeliever. I'm allowed to ask questions as a believer as I'm searching for the truth.

How could Mary sin if her womb gave birth to Jesus ?

I do believe the reason why Jesus had a virgin birth so that He could escape from having sins of Joseph as the sins of Adam are the only ones He would have to watch out for. Or at least, that's what I've been told by other Christians. I'm not sure whether or not the Bible actually confirms this though. :/

A good point. To expand on it further for those who aren't familiar:

Under the Catholic doctrine, when a human is born, they are cursed with original sin that is tied to the original Adam and Eve story. Sex isn't just some casual acceptable pleasure to us. It is an immoral act by sinful humans only made clean to produce offspring, who are born with original sin. Then, that original sin is washed away upon baptism, and you are "born again".

Now, the obvious. Jesus was indeed born of Mary. He didn't just appear. So, Jesus is subject to his own doctrine. Let's work it out logically.

If Jesus has no sin, yet he was born... and all who are born of sinful humans are given original sin... how could Jesus be born and at the same time have no sin? The logical deduction is he was born from someone without sin. That's the only explanation for how He was born, and yet was without sin.

Christianity is tied with logic, it's how the religion comes to know Christ as much as they can. It's the most intellectual faith on the planet, intertwined with classic Greek thought.

No, no, no this is complete and absolute nonsense. No offense or anything but the Bible doesn't talk about any of this at all.

I feel there were no "other children of Mary".

The woman was married and the Bible says that Jesus had unnamed brothers and sisters. Do the math.

I go to one board which is pretty much hostile to Trinitarians. I mean far from Potterhead saying "non-trinitarianism might be true"

I never said that though. I wasn't questioning the existence of the trinity rather whether or not if it was three in one beings or three separate beings. Cause right now the latter is making more sense to me even though no matter what they're all connected.

The Son - while He walked the earth before being ascended and glorified - "didn't know what only the Father knew" - that doesn't mean the Son doesn't know NOW. I think the Son does know NOW.

So then why didn't Jesus know before if He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit were all the same?

Catholics believe we are and remain the Body of Christ. Asking Mary, the Saints, or even a family member who has passed on is the same as asking a friend or family member who has not passed on to pray with us. This follows Jesus' teaching that whenever two or more are gathered in his name, he is there, too.

Again, why would you feel the need to ask Mary at all? Why not talk to Jesus directly?

We do--all the time. We also gather to pray together as a community. And...we gather as a family, or with a friend (whether living or passed on) and pray. We place that much emphasis on both the power and beauty of prayer.

Then why not skip Mary? We can still honor her as the mother of Jesus without praying to her.

We don't. We ask her to pray for us just like you would ask someone else to pray for you.

Again,.. what's the point?

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is God. The Holy Ghost is God, as it says in Acts 5.

Know it.
Live it.

Whether or not Jesus is God (the creator) Himself, or the Son of God shouldn't make that much of a difference as He is still divine.

 

[shimon]

Didn't the Tribe of Dan go as far east as Asian regions, for all we know Dan is based partially on a tribal oral tradition. This is why we don't revere or make image to characters, as it's more about the lessons in the stories and seeing emulations and reflections in the present and future, than attention to the characters.

Good point the tribe of Dan always left a marker so it should be easy to trace even now

 

[shimon]

>>Isa 9:6
>>For unto us a child is born, unto us a son >>is given
=Ahaz's son
Remember, a sign does Ahaz no good 600 years after he's dead, signs are imminent.

>>> and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
His son King Hezekiah had his fathers kingdom on his shoulder and was deemed a father figure for protecting them by defeating Assyria
Thus called; The Prince(one who sacrifices for others) of Peace.

If you were to remove this from the historical and make it spiritual you'd still have a problem.
His counsel according to
scrolls commentary
(Hezekiah Apochryphon 4Q 470), was through the intercession of the arch malakh Michael.
And the sons name given in *Isaiah 7 in Hebrew would be...*cough-cough*
"HaShev".

Source *Isaiah 7:3 the son Isaiah is refering to is named Shear ‘Yshv’ (proper transliteration (pronounced hashev=return because Y=H sound) Shear ‘Yshv’ means a remnant shall ‘return’ (HaShev in Hebrew).

Ha means the… so The Shev found in Isaiah 7 which in Hebrew is Sheva how fitting……..

 

[ding]

Again,.. what's the point?

Intercession. To have someone in better standing vouch for you and plead your case.

 

[Road Runner]

Intercession. To have someone in better standing vouch for you and plead your case.

So,.. in other words we have to ask Mary if it's alright to talk to God/Jesus I don't think so! I can talk to Him anytime I want to and I don't have to ask Mary's permission to do so.

 

[ding]

So,.. in other words we have to ask Mary if it's alright to talk to God/Jesus I don't think so! I can talk to Him anytime I want to and I don't have to ask Mary's permission to do so.

No. It's more like asking a character witness testify that you are a good person.

You are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Road Runner]

No. It's more like asking a character witness testify that you are a good person.

You are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

But if everybody had to be a good person to talk to God then nobody new would ever get saved. And based upon God's standard, none of us are good. I like you and everything, but you're the one who's making it more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[ding]

But if everybody had to be a good person to talk to God then nobody new would ever get saved. And based upon God's standard, none of us are good. I like you and everything, but you're the one who's making it more complicated than it needs to be.

There's no guarantee of anything Just because someone intercedes on your behalf.

If you have ever been in a prayer group and asked others to pray for you then you have done the exact same thing.

I suspect you have been misinformed and accepted what you were told as a truth without ever thinking about it.

intercession: the action of intervening on behalf of another. The action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.​

 

[Road Runner]

No it's not the same thing, because I'm not praying to the ones I'm asking for prayer from. I pray to the LORD. That's it.

 

[Road Runner]

And how you could think that God has requirements to hear from His children who He LOVES is beyond me.