Could The Trinity Doctrine Be Wrong?

[Wyatt earp]

The Virgin Mary is the key that protestants ignore

 

[Road Runner]

Prayer is not necessarily worship.

They seem pretty much the same thing to me. :/

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB, how do you see this issue?

She doesn't have proper hermeneutics.
God is comprehensible in her mind.

We are accustomed to backing away from a large animal or large item in order to see it in it's entirety... people have some nice pictures of the planet earth when far enough away to see it in it's entirety...

God, the Father is not viewable in the same way...God is infinite.
Jesus isn't a 1/3 of God.... because first off 1/3 of infinity is still infinity.

3 "Who"s and one what is a better way of saying it.

God has revealed himself to us by means of three distinct person's...but they are all God.
The Shema clearly says in it's beginning:
"Hear oh Israel, The LORD, The LORD God is One...."


And finally...
Cherub is singular...Cherubim is plural
Seraph is singular.... Seraphim is plural.
Eloh is singular...Elohim is plural.

Elohim is the term often used for God.
But we aren't polytheistic (like the Hindus) our God is one revealed to us as three distinct persons.

Apprehend without trying to comprehend.

 

[Road Runner]

She doesn't have proper hermeneutics.
God is comprehensible in her mind.

We are accustomed to backing away from a large animal or large item in order to see it in it's entirety... people have some nice pictures of the planet earth when far enough away to see it in it's entirety...

God, the Father is not viewable in the same way...God is infinite.
Jesus isn't a 1/3 of God.... because first off 1/3 of infinity is still infinity.

3 "Who"s and one what is a better way of saying it.

God has revealed himself to us by means of three distinct person's...but they are all God.
The Shema clearly says in it's beginning:
"Hear oh Israel, The LORD, The LORD God is One...."


And finally...
Cherub is singular...Cherubim is plural
Seraph is singular.... Seraphim is plural.
Eloh is singular...Elohim is plural.

Elohim is the term often used for God.
But we aren't polytheistic (like the Hindus) our God is one revealed to us as three distinct persons.

Apprehend without trying to comprehend.

Okay, then how would you answer her one legit question? How can Jesus not know when He's coming back and He's supposedly the creator Himself in human form when His spirit form does? Honestly, I know the trinity is very important no matter how you look at it, but now I'm not sure what to believe anymore. :/

 

[Wyatt earp]

Okay, then how would you answer her one legit question? How can Jesus not know when He's coming back and He's supposedly the creator Himself in human form when His spirit form does? Honestly, I know the trinity is very important no matter how you look at it, but now I'm not sure what to believe anymore. :/

What Jesus wrote in the sand

 

[Road Runner]

What Jesus wrote in the sand

Jesus wrote what now? When did this part take place in the Bible? I don't seem to remember it. :/

 

[Likkmee]

Why don't they just pray to Him directly though? It's not like He's a little kid and they have to ask His mother if He can come out to play.

Because he said"Like this"
OUR father who art in heaven....
Case closed.

 

[Road Runner]

Because he said"Like this"
OUR father who art in heaven....
Case closed.

No it isn't because what does Mary have to do with it? She isn't our Father. She isn't even our mother,.. she's Jesus' mother but not ours.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Jesus wrote what now? When did this part take place in the Bible? I don't seem to remember it. :/

This might help and I suggest you read the book of John again

 

[Wyatt earp]

No it isn't because what does Mary have to do with it? She isn't our Father. She isn't even our mother,.. she's Jesus' mother but not ours.

Jesus created mary, Mary created Jesus ...

 

[Road Runner]

This might help and I suggest you read the book of John again

Pretty song and video, but Jesus didn't write anything in the sand that I could see,.. He just scribbled in it and drew a line.

Jesus created mary, Mary created Jesus ...

I know that but so? What does that have to do with what I said and what we were talking about?

 

[foggedinn]

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Father is unknowable until one of His sons is overcome by the Holy Ghost. This is the story of the prophets. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[JohnDB]

Okay, then how would you answer her one legit question? How can Jesus not know when He's coming back and He's supposedly the creator Himself in human form when His spirit form does? Honestly, I know the trinity is very important no matter how you look at it, but now I'm not sure what to believe anymore. :/

Because Jesus is God but not the sum total of God.
IOW He knew what He needed to and not a lot of stuff that He didn't.

 

[Road Runner]

Because Jesus is God but not the sum total of God.
IOW He knew what He needed to and not a lot of stuff that He didn't.

 

[Clyde 154]

To get to Jesus.

Why the need for a go between? The scriptures declare that each and every member of the church is a member of a Royal Priesthood with a direct connection to Jesus' throne.

"You to are living stones, built as an edifice of spirit, INTO A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5).

"You, however are a chosen race, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, a people He claims for His own to proclaim the glorious works of the One who called you from darkness into His glorious light." -- 1 Peter 2:9

All Christians are of that holy priesthood and can offer God spiritual sacrifices. All (every Christian has no need of a go between priest or supposed mother of god) have the right to go directly to the God through our high priest Jesus Christ. (Heb. 4:14-16).

Claims have been made that Catholics do not worship Mary as the Mother of Jesus (God incarnate).......if you profess someone to be the mother of God that deifies that someone.

What constitutes WORSHIP? When someone PRAYS to Mary they are in fact worshiping her as deity (Divine..i.e., God). Prayer is a form of worship. We can pray on behalf of others (James 5:16). But you don't pray to a 3rd and request that person to pray on behalf you.....that person is not deity.......they cannot hear you unless you claim them as deity. (1 Cor. 2:1)
Only God knows the minds of men (Ps. 139:1-2).

Mary was a person that died during the time period of the early church. What do the scriptures declare about the dead? The dead are unaware of events on earth. (Eccl. 9:5-6).

What does the Catholic Church teach about Mary? Nothing but man made Dogmatic Tradition. 1. They claim that Mary is the Mother of God. Mary was the mother of Jesus. Jesus was God incarnate. Thus, Mary is prayed to as deity being the Mother of God.

2. Mary is exalted above the angels, as the Mother of God is closer to God than the angels. (Catholic Dictionary page 554). Called Queen of the Universe.

4. Truth: Mary is never called the Mother of God in the Holy Scriptures (thus, its nothing but Dogmatic manmade tradition).

A little logic and reason. Mary is the mother of Jesus (John 2:1). The mother of my Lord (Luke 1:43). Jesus is God (John 1:1). As God, Jesus pre-existed the foundation of the world (John 8:58). For Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to pre-exist the Christ. Since such cannot be the case.......its not proper to declare Mary as the Mother of God, or to worship her as deity, or to pray to her on behalf of anyone as she cannot hear you.

Mary was blessed to have been chosen to bear the Son of God. (Luke 11:27-28).

But this granted her no special status, "...........blessed is the womb that bare thee (Jesus), and the paps which thou has sucked. But He (Jesus) said, YEA RATHER, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

The amusing part? Catholics believe that Sin is inherited from birth. They could not explain how Mary being deity......was the exception as they teach that Mary is without sin. More Dogma from the Catholics. This Papal decree came from Pope Pius IX in 1854.

Some teach as doctrine the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Yet the scriptures teach that Mary had other children other than Jesus. (Matt. 13:55-56).

There is a great deal more that one can learn from Catholic Literature....that contradicts the actual text of the Scriptures.

 

[Road Runner]

Another really good point that Clyde just made in different words. If Mary was truly a part of the trinity she would be sinless,.. and Catholics on this thread can argue with me until they're blue in the face but Mary was a sinner. For if she was sinless, she could have just have easily been the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, but she wasn't. It's also called the trinity for a reason, because it means three. The Father, Son, and The Holy Ghost. Otherwise, it would be the holy quartet.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Another really good point that Clyde just made in different words. If Mary was truly a part of the trinity she would be sinless,.. and Catholics on this thread can argue with me until they're blue in the face but Mary was a sinner. For if she was sinless, she could have just have easily been the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, but she wasn't. It's also called the trinity for a reason, because it means three. The Father, Son, and The Holy Ghost. Otherwise, it would be the holy quartet.

I appreciate your curiosity, but you're going in odd directions here.

I think in this past post, you're falling into the trap of assuming that we humans will be able to explain and know what God is. We don't know what He is fully, He is the great mystery. We follow natural law in all areas other than one assumption.. that our mysterious God exists. We try to know what He is as much as we can, but we simply cannot comprehend it clearly.

Now let's look at the Trinity. First, the assumption: God is our creator and Lord. Okay. Then we look at His writings. God IS the Father and the Son, but yet the Son talks seperately about the Father? WTF. Right? How can x = y but yet x is not y? Well, obviously, we can't comprehend His substance, and we don't claim to. We are drawn to His substance and mystery. We try to explain it, but we can't. We apply faith in one assumption. That's the trinity. You're trying to say that because it doesn't make sense to human-understood laws that it cannot be. To a non-believer, I understand how it doesn't make sense. But, it does to believers, because we know we can't prove what God is, we can only understand Him the best we can, and then come to know Him by what we know while admitting the mystery.

Scientists do this with "Dark Energy" in the universe. They know something undefined and unseen is making up most of the matter in the universe, and causing everything to expand faster rather than slow down. So, they create a concept of "Dark Energy" by faith and apply it.

I'm a converted Catholic from Protestantism. I had to ask these types of questions in my journey. I had hangups with Mary as well, but once I was exposed to principles of word usage and meaning, it's quite accurate to see that Mary clearly was referred to using different language than just some lady who birthed Christ. People use such language with a purpose.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Another really good point that Clyde just made in different words. If Mary was truly a part of the trinity she would be sinless,.. and Catholics on this thread can argue with me until they're blue in the face but Mary was a sinner. For if she was sinless, she could have just have easily been the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, but she wasn't. It's also called the trinity for a reason, because it means three. The Father, Son, and The Holy Ghost. Otherwise, it would be the holy quartet.

How could Mary sin if her womb gave birth to Jesus ?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

How could Mary sin if her womb gave birth to Jesus ?

A good point. To expand on it further for those who aren't familiar:

Under the Catholic doctrine, when a human is born, they are cursed with original sin that is tied to the original Adam and Eve story. Sex isn't just some casual acceptable pleasure to us. It is an immoral act by sinful humans only made clean to produce offspring, who are born with original sin. Then, that original sin is washed away upon baptism, and you are "born again".

Now, the obvious. Jesus was indeed born of Mary. He didn't just appear. So, Jesus is subject to his own doctrine. Let's work it out logically.

If Jesus has no sin, yet he was born... and all who are born of sinful humans are given original sin... how could Jesus be born and at the same time have no sin? The logical deduction is he was born from someone without sin. That's the only explanation for how He was born, and yet was without sin.

Christianity is tied with logic, it's how the religion comes to know Christ as much as they can. It's the most intellectual faith on the planet, intertwined with classic Greek thought.

 

[Thors Provoni]

I feel there were no "other children of Mary".

I feel Joseph had sons and daughters by a previous wife who passed away. There is no way to "prove" this - but many people believe it.

The ProtoEvangelium of James is a non-canonical work which gets some of this right - yet it pictures the Wise Men at the Manger - whereas the Bible says the Magi found the young child Jesus "in a house".

The only time that Virgin Mary is ever in the compnay of James, Jude, 2 more brothers and at least 2 sisters happenned to be the occasion where Jesus' family thought His cheese had slid off His cracker - and people told Jesus "Your Mother and Brothers and Sisters are looking for you" - leading Jesus to say " Who are my Mother - Brothers - Sisters? They who do the will of the Father are my Mother-Brothers- and sisters."

At this incident we assume Joseph has already died. At the crucifixion - Jesus commends Mother Mary's care to the Apostle John - the only one who remained present throughout the crucifixion., and also the only disiciple who lived out a natural lifespan, whereas If Mary truly birthed James-Jude et al - one of them could have taken care of Mary - whereas Jesus in fact commended her to John of Zebedee, and Mother Mary lived with John from then on.

People talk of Cathlic Catholic Catholic Catholic as if there never were such a thing as Greek Orthodox and Coptic - this is erroneous - Catholic were not any OLDER or any more ORIGINAL or "earlier" than Orthodox. If anything, Catholics were the schismatics, breaking away from the several patriarchs.

There is also the fact that ADELPHOI in Greek can mean 'close relative' and need not mean SIBLING.

There is nothing that destroys a "Perpetual Virginity of Mary" - though for me as a Protestant there is nothing that requires it either, but 1500 years of the doctrine before Protestants came on the scene should not lightly be tossed aside.