Zone1 Five Major Problems With The Trinity - by Sean Finnegan

[onefour1]

why do you only mention CATHOLICS.?

They were the first come up with this idea.

 

[onefour1]

do protestants not believe in the Trinity?

Probably.

 

[onefour1]

why are we forced to listen to some stupid boring video?

why cant we have a text?

Its a matter of preference.

 

[Zebra]

Probably.

they also believe!

 

[onefour1]

God is still one. The Trinity is three aspects of the one. This is kind of lame. Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one.

I believe that the godhead are three separate and distinct persons. What I can't believe is that they are the same being. The oneness of God is that they are united in purpose and doctrine. The Father is the head over the Godhead and Jesus and the Holy Ghost only do that which the Father would have them do. All three of them are considered a God because they are part of the united Godhead. They all represent the same united doctrine and purpose which makes them united as the one true God even though there are three separate and distinct beings and persons. None of these three beings will contradict or go against the other. They are one in the same way that we might at some point become one with them.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

I don't think that we will become the same being as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost by becoming one in them but that we will share in the same spirit of truth and righteousness. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that the three beings (persons) of the Godhead are the exact same being.

I am not in full agreement with Mr. Finnegan in that the Jewish belief of God was correct in the days of Jesus. The Jews themselves were in a state of apostasy during that time and rejected their God and crucified Him. But the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same being is also a false doctrine. The idea of the oneness of God is not that they are one being but that they are united in one true doctrine and purpose under God the Father. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are a complete and total representation of God the Father and thus they are united as one true God, each of them being part of the Godhead and being united in truth and holiness. The concept of the Trinity is almost correct but it is flawed in believing that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same being. They are not.

 

[onefour1]

His statement that Peter tempted Eve in the garden is hysterical. Did that assinine example convince you?

He was being facetious and showing how someone can come up with some very strange beliefs by using misguided logic.

 

[onefour1]

Write please down what he thinks what is a problem in context of the triune god.

Conclusion: Five Problems
1. Jesus affirmed the theology of a non-Trinitarian Jewish scribe.
2. The Trinity is never explained in scripture.
3. There is no controversy of it in the first century.
4. Singular pronouns exclude the notion of multiple persons of God
5. Jesus was not omniscient

The are the arguments of Sean Finnegan. I do not agree with all of his arguments, especially #4. However I would like to hear the Catholic or Protestant argument against his logic.

 

[onefour1]

they also believe!

One reason I mention only Catholics is because there are an estimated 35,496 independent or non-denominational churches according to ARDA. I don't really have the time to find out if they all believe the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[ninja007]

Unitarian Assumption: Being vs. Person


When discussing the Trinity and/or the deity of the Son with “unitarian”[3] groups, we must be aware of their starting theological commitment—namely, God is one person. In other words, every time “one” is applied to God, the unitarians read into the term “one” as person (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29; 1 Tim. 2:5; etc.). Hence, by default, the unitarian reinterprets monotheism to mean unipersonalism, although, there is no passage in the OT or NT, which clearly identifies God as “one person.”[4] It is upon that fundamental premise, which unitarian groups such as Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Oneness Pentecostals launch their attacks on the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ, thus, rejecting any notion that “another” person (Jesus) is God.


This biblical misunderstanding of monotheism also confuses “being” with “person.” Simply stated, “being” (an ontological reference) is What something is, while “person” is Who something is. Scripture presents one eternal God, that is, one Being, revealed in three distinct persons, the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Hence, because the Scripture presents a triune God, the Christian church has consistently and tenaciously held to and affirmed the Trinity and preexistence of the person of God the Son.

The preexistence of God the Son, Jesus Christ

The preexistence and the deity of the distinct person of the Son, Jesus Christ, God the Son, Jesus second person of the Trinity. Eternal Son. The preincarnate Son of God. John 1:1; 17:5

christiandefense.org

 

[ninja007]

Here’s a list of single Bible verses that explicitly reference all three members of the Trinity.

Oh, and I better give some credit to Logos Bible Software on this. That tool makes it easy to find verses that refer to some of the Trinity members via pronouns. For example, Matthew 12:28 refers to all three members of the Trinity, but since Jesus is speaking, he is only referred to with the pronoun “I.” Good luck trying to figure this out with a regular concordance!

1. Matthew 3:16​

“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”

2. Matthew 12:28​

“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

3. Matthew 28:19​

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”

4. Luke 3:22​

“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

5. John 14:26​

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

6. John 15:26​

“When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”

7. Acts 1:4​

“Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”

8. Acts 2:33​

“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”

9. Acts 10:38​

“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

10. Romans 1:4​

“Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”

11. Romans 8:9​

“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

12. 1 Corinthians 6:11​

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

13. 2 Corinthians 13:14​

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

14. Galatians 4:6​

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

15. Ephesians 1:17​

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

16. Ephesians 2:18​

For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

17. Ephesians 2:22​

In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

18. Titus 3:6​

Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

19. Hebrews 9:14​

How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

20. 1 Peter 1:2​

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

(Thanks to Logos Bible Software’s Clause Search, making this list was a lot easier than it looks.)

Of course, there are more passages that mention all three Trinity members (1 Co 12:4–6; Eph 1:13–14; 4:4–6; Jude 20–21), and many more that describe the relationships between the three persons of the Trinity.

You’ll also find a few passages in the Old Testament that mention all members of the Trinity (depending on your interpretation). One example is Isaiah 48:16, in which many believe it is Jesus who says, “and now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” Many scholars also suggest that the enigmatic “angel of the Lord” we see in the Old Testament is actually Jesus.

20 Bible verses that mention all Trinity members

Here's a list of single Bible verses that explicitly reference all three members of the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

overviewbible.com

 

[onefour1]

I don't dispute that the godhead consists of three separate distinct persons. This I believe to be a true doctrine. What I dispute is the teaching that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same being. That is a belief that is not taught in the Bible. Yes they all represent the one true God but the oneness that they each have is not that they are the same being. They are completely one in purpose and doctrine and always teach the same pathway to salvation. I like the following verses of scripture which also show that the Father and Son are separate distinct persons and beings:

Genesis 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Here the pronouns "us" and "our" truly indicate that there are more than one and that God and Jesus who are members of the godhead are separate and distinct persons and beings.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Here we learn that Jesus, who is known as the Word, was with God (the Father) in the beginning. We then learn that the Word was also known as God. Then it is restated again that the Word (the same) was in the beginning with God (the Father). Finally we learn that through the Word, all things were made by Him. In other words, it was Jesus who created the earth and created all that was created in the seven days of creation through the direction of the Father.

 

[zaangalewa]

Conclusion: Five Problems
1. Jesus affirmed the theology of a non-Trinitarian Jewish scribe.

Jesus was a Jew - and not a Christian. Because of the Jew Jesus exist Christians.

2. The Trinity is never explained in scripture.

I'm not sure what your language understands now under "explained". For sure idiots in universities did not speak about and did not make a lot of hypotheses about. Nevertheless Jesus on his own made it very simple to install this hierarchy which is no hierarchy.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
Jesus

3. There is no controversy of it in the first century.

If you ask a Historian then he will tell you: "We have not any evidence that Christians existed at all in the first century." But every spiritual charlatan knows everyhting and more about the very few Christians of this time of history.

4. Singular pronouns exclude the notion of multiple persons of God

God is noticed with male, female, single and plural attributes in the bible in the OId Testament.

5. Jesus was not omniscient

Hmmm ... seems to be true because he is also 100% a human being. The creator did not only share his own creation with us he also shared death with us in Jesus the Christ ... maybe he shared also our lack of knowledge with us in Jesus the human being. On the other side was Jesus the same as his father.

But what has this to do ... ahm ... now I understand. You never thought about what's written in the Athanasian creed which "explains" very nice that the Catholic way forces us to believe in one god - and the Christian way forces us to believe in the triune god.

The are the arguments of Sean Finnegan.

I don't know whether to think about such self made "problems" will help anyone. If someone has thirst - give him to drink. If someone is hungry - give him to eat. Oh by the way, Benjamin Netanjahu, what do you not understand when the USA, the UNO and the international court try to speak with Israel?

I do not agree with all of his arguments, especially #4. However I would like to hear the Catholic or Protestant argument against his logic.

You heard my personal point of view. I am on my own a Catholic - but I am very sure it exist also Catholics who say it's totally stupid what I said here. Brothers and sisters are sometimes damn dämlich - ah sorry damn stupid. They should know that I am always right but this bastards ... ahm, this was too heavy! Beg your pardon dear sisters and brothers ... By the way: Do you know that Jesus on his own was a indeed a bastard? No? ... Think about. ... Could be an interesting thought which could teach you something about yourselve on your own.

 

[surada]

He was being facetious and showing how someone can come up with some very strange beliefs by using misguided logic.

Looks like projection to me. ... He's inventing kookery to have something to attack.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

why do you only mention CATHOLICS.?

You're right. The Great Whore's many Protestant daughters teach the same pagan nonsense

 

[Libby von H]

Belief in the Trinity is still monotheism.

So who denied that,I said that over 25 years I studied De Trinitate by Augustine

 

[ding]

So is it the belief of the Catholics that the idea of the trinity was had during the days of Jesus and his disciples but was never recorded in scripture? How do Catholics address Sean Finnegan's 5 major problems with the trinity?

The Trinity is not a mystery to be solved but a relationship to be entered into.

 

[ding]

Probably.

There’s no probably about it. The LDS and JW’s don’t believe in the Trinity but all Christians do.

 

[onefour1]

There’s no probably about it. The LDS and JW’s don’t believe in the Trinity but all Christians do.

Nontrinitarianism​

 

[Libby von H]

Conclusion: Five Problems
1. Jesus affirmed the theology of a non-Trinitarian Jewish scribe.
2. The Trinity is never explained in scripture.
3. There is no controversy of it in the first century.
4. Singular pronouns exclude the notion of multiple persons of God
5. Jesus was not omniscient

The are the arguments of Sean Finnegan. I do not agree with all of his arguments, especially #4. However I would like to hear the Catholic or Protestant argument against his logic.

False and proof we are dealing with a moron

1) THe Jews and Jesus rejected MANY 'monadic' theories of God.Just saying "God is One' does not eliminate the many ways of being one in antiquity So this , eg, was thoroughly condemned : EMANATION , a theory describing the origin of the material universe from a transcendent first principle. According to this theory, the universe, which is multiple, is generated from the One, which is unitary, through the medium of a hierarchy of immaterial substances.
2) Trinity isn't explained because it is Revelation, what you couldn't know unless God revealed it, moron
3) There is no controversy because Jesus gave it in its defended form “baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
NOTICE: In the NAME not in the NAMES,moron
4) You are not only stupid you don't know how to speak. we have alternate singular/plurals in English as in all the Romance languages
'army' is a very good example of what are called collective nouns. The army IS in Europe SINGULAR the army live in homes located in many states PLURAL same with words like 'football team" Our team beats all competitors Singlular Our team have many different political opinions

5) Jesus didn't have to be omniscient.
John 12:49-50 New Living Translation (NLT)The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. And I know his commands lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say.”

THIS PERSON IS A DUMB POMPOUS ASSSS

 

[ding]

Nontrinitarianism​

LDS and JW's are Christians as much as Gnostic Christians were Christian, which they weren't.