Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[Woodznutz]

Who is anyone to tell Catholics what they can believe or not.

Believing error is one thing, teaching it is another.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Neither scripture has anything to do with the Body of Christ in full communion with God. God is God of the living, and the living are all parts of the body. Consider what Paul says about the body: Does one part tell another that part is not needed? Then, should any member of the Body of Christ claim another member is not needed?

If you have no wish to talk to any member of the Body of Christ, then that is your personal call. It is beyond the pale to declare to other members of the Body of Christ they are not allowed to talk anyone other than Christ.

You act like I declared it. What it has to do with is anybody who inquires of the dead, should not, regardless of whatever religious doctrine they practice. Asking Mary for favors will get you nowhere. Isaiah makes the point:

Isaiah 8:19 And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?​

 

[hadit]

sorry, those psgs don't work. Ironically, they do not say

Don't pray to My mother

ha ha... too funny

Do we really need Jesus to explicitly forbid something in order to know it's not something He endorses? Here's a hint, He revered the Law and obeyed it perfectly. Would ANYONE who did that EVER pray to ANYONE other than God Himself?

Also, why on earth would He place such an extraordinary burden on His mother to make her listen to all the pleas and cries of humanity? Isn't it enough that she had to watch her son be executed in the most horrific way?

 

[hadit]

that's because the Rapture is a false, unbiblical belief. For one, it would have Jesus coming 3 times instead of just 2.

That is not true. Rapture teaching does not have Him returning, but rather taking His flock out of the world.

 

[surada]

That is not true. Rapture teaching does not have Him returning, but rather taking His flock out of the world.

The rapture was invented in 1830.

 

[surada]

hadit

Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.

While not all dispensationalists believe in the Rapture. All those who teach the Rapture also believe in premillennialism. Both groups use Israel's modern statehood status of 1948 to be a beginning of a countdown to the end.

All premillennialists, rapturists and dispensationalists alive today believe the Bible reveals the general era of when Christ will return. The date setters of the 1800's (Seventh-day Adventists who are date setting premillennialists who reject the rapture, Jehovah's Witnesses who have set many dates) based their predictions upon speculative arrangements of numbers and chronologies in the Bible.

Today's date setters without exception wrongly believe that Israel gaining state hood in 1948 fulfilled Bible prophecy and that Christ would return within one generation.

 

[hadit]

I don't know what Greg had in mind. But if we consider the account, who told Mary the wine was running short? Who then brought this problem to Jesus? Why wasn't Mary bypassed and the problem taken directly to Jesus? Whoever brought the matter to Mary's attention must have trusted that Mary might have an idea or two on how to solve it.

I doubt they had any idea that she had supernatural power to do anything. The Bible doesn't specify how Mary became aware of the shortage, but my thought is she was involved in the planning, so whoever noticed wanted to notify her, or she saw it herself. The point is, I wouldn't ascribe any great revealing of the way God's heaven works to this passage.

 

[hadit]

Neither scripture has anything to do with the Body of Christ in full communion with God. God is God of the living, and the living are all parts of the body. Consider what Paul says about the body: Does one part tell another that part is not needed? Then, should any member of the Body of Christ claim another member is not needed?

If you have no wish to talk to any member of the Body of Christ, then that is your personal call. It is beyond the pale to declare to other members of the Body of Christ they are not allowed to talk anyone other than Christ.

The problem is, as we have discussed before, that many do not stop with merely conversing with dead ancestors and take it to worship. There are many Catholics, for example, who actually revere Mary as being greater than ordinary humans, divine, if you will. That's extremely dangerous. Think of this, is it right for someone to become so enamored with Mary that they pray to her, thinking that their prayer will get more of God's attention than if they pray directly to Him?

We believe Mary was a very Godly woman who followed God at great cost to herself and deserves admiration for doing so. We do NOT, however, accept that she is in any way divine or tasked by God to act like Jesus Himself, e.g., being an intercessor between God and man. That's a unique job reserved solely for Jesus to perform.

 

[Meriweather]

Isaiah 8:19 And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

A person who prays is not going through mediums nor necromancers. Prayer goes through the Holy Spirit.

 

[surada]

The problem is, as we have discussed before, that many do not stop with merely conversing with dead ancestors and take it to worship. There are many Catholics, for example, who actually revere Mary as being greater than ordinary humans, divine, if you will. That's extremely dangerous. Think of this, is it right for someone to become so enamored with Mary that they pray to her, thinking that their prayer will get more of God's attention than if they pray directly to Him?

We believe Mary was a very Godly woman who followed God at great cost to herself and deserves admiration for doing so. We do NOT, however, accept that she is in any way divine or tasked by God to act like Jesus Himself, e.g., being an intercessor between God and man. That's a unique job reserved solely for Jesus to perform.

Why do you think Mary was chosen among women?

 

[surada]

I doubt they had any idea that she had supernatural power to do anything. The Bible doesn't specify how Mary became aware of the shortage, but my thought is she was involved in the planning, so whoever noticed wanted to notify her, or she saw it herself. The point is, I wouldn't ascribe any great revealing of the way God's heaven works to this passage.

Why did you cut and run over the rapture? Are you an evangelical?

 

[Meriweather]

I doubt they had any idea that she had supernatural power to do anything. The Bible doesn't specify how Mary became aware of the shortage, but my thought is she was involved in the planning, so whoever noticed wanted to notify her, or she saw it herself. The point is, I wouldn't ascribe any great revealing of the way God's heaven works to this passage.

I'm not suggesting Mary had any supernatural experiences/powers during the wedding feast. I'm merely pointing out (as I doubt she was serving the wine) that someone thought she might have some advice or know what to do. My point being that when any of us have an ordinary problem, we don't necessarily go running to God for advice or answers, we go to people, especially those who may have some knowledge or know someone who can help if they cannot.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem is, as we have discussed before, that many do not stop with merely conversing with dead ancestors and take it to worship. There are many Catholics, for example, who actually revere Mary as being greater than ordinary humans, divine, if you will. That's extremely dangerous. Think of this, is it right for someone to become so enamored with Mary that they pray to her, thinking that their prayer will get more of God's attention than if they pray directly to Him?

We believe Mary was a very Godly woman who followed God at great cost to herself and deserves admiration for doing so. We do NOT, however, accept that she is in any way divine or tasked by God to act like Jesus Himself, e.g., being an intercessor between God and man. That's a unique job reserved solely for Jesus to perform.

Catholics believe none of the above about Mary. Catholics believe Mary is human and the mother of Jesus. As such she is an honored, admired member of the Body of Christ. Catholics pray with other members of the Body of Christ on a regular basis. Surely you do not think Catholics believe any member of the Body of Christ is divine in his or her own right!?! If not, why ever would anyone jump to that conclusion about Mary?!

Anyone can offer prayers on behalf of others. That is not close to being the same as mediating, which no one other than Jesus has ever done.

 

[The Irish Ram]

A person who prays is not going through mediums nor necromancers. Prayer goes through the Holy Spirit.

Jesus prayed to one person. Our Father. And He taught us how to pray, and to whom.
Jesus never prayed to any human no matter how illustrious they were. Asking saints or other dead humans for blessings or favors doesn't work. They have no power to grant them.
Should you inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

One man had a vision, and his whole mission took his eyes off of Christ and on to Christ's mother. She supposedly gave him beads and prayers to say to her. Not to God, not to her son, but to her. And that smacks of blasphemy. And really bad advice. Mary called Jesus her Savior, not the other way around. Why would she, all of a sudden, tell humans to pray to her instead? And why did she wait until the 13th century to clue us in?

In fact, to make matters worse, yet another Pope promoted her to co-Redemptress. That is blasphemy.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus prayed to one person. Our Father. And He taught us how to pray, and to whom.
Jesus never prayed to any human no matter how illustrious they were. Asking saints or other dead humans for blessings or favors doesn't work. They have no power to grant them.
Should you inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

One man had a vision, and his whole mission took his eyes off of Christ and on to Christ's mother. She supposedly gave him beads and prayers to say to her. Not to God, not to her son, but to her. And that smacks of blasphemy. And really bad advice. Mary called Jesus her Savior, not the other way around. Why would she, all of a sudden, tell humans to pray to her instead? And why did she wait until the 13th century to clue us in?

In fact, to make matters worse, yet another Pope promoted her to co-Redemptress. That is blasphemy.

Mary was never promoted to "co-redemptress". There is no such title. Christ is sometimes referred to the "New Adam" due to his obedience to God, and following this thought, we can refer to Mary as the "New Eve" for her obedience to God. Mary proclaimed God as 'my savior'. Of herself, she said she would be called, 'Blessed'.

If a person does not wish to pray with others, that is a personal choice. Many feel the same about worship, that there is no need to worship together with others. Catholics do not insist others pray the rosary, probably for good reason. The Rosary is a prayer of contemplation/meditation on the life of Christ, something non-Catholic Christians cannot seem to fathom. In many ways, such contemplation can take us back to the Garden of Eden, and even through much of the Old Testament. The Rosary can also take one through the Beatitudes, Parables, Miracles.

There is really no need for non-Catholics to get their knickers in a twist over Mary any more than there is a need to get in a snit about Catholics worshiping together at daily Mass.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Mary was never promoted to "co-redemptress". There is no such title. Christ is sometimes referred to the "New Adam" due to his obedience to God, and following this thought, we can refer to Mary as the "New Eve" for her obedience to God. Mary proclaimed God as 'my savior'. Of herself, she said she would be called, 'Blessed'.

If a person does not wish to pray with others, that is a personal choice. Many feel the same about worship, that there is no need to worship together with others. Catholics do not insist others pray the rosary, probably for good reason. The Rosary is a prayer of contemplation/meditation on the life of Christ, something non-Catholic Christians cannot seem to fathom. In many ways, such contemplation can take us back to the Garden of Eden, and even through much of the Old Testament. The Rosary can also take one through the Beatitudes, Parables, Miracles.

There is really no need for non-Catholics to get their knickers in a twist over Mary any more than there is a need to get in a snit about Catholics worshiping together at daily Mass.

We don't get into a snit about either. We often do refer to history though.
Mary has been a co-redeemer according to the Catholic church since the 1800's, until recently, when a different Pope said she is not.
It's hard to keep track of the on again, off again dogma of certain religions. How much easier it is to get our religious information from scripture. What Christ tells us is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

[Meriweather]

Mary has been a co-redeemer according to the Catholic church since the 1800's, until recently, when a different Pope said she is not.
It's hard to keep track of the on again, off again dogma of certain religions.

Mary as "co-redeemer" is very easy to keep track of. Actually, it was in the middle-ages some remarked that her role in redemption might be compared to Paul (and the other Apostles') role in salvation. It remained a pious opinion, nothing more. The Second Vatican Council discussed the use of this term, and agreed it was not--and should not--be part of Catholic dogma. It was merely an opinion of some. Again, this opinion was based on Jesus being the New Adam; Mary being the New Eve; of Paul and the Apostles having a role in salvation, and Mary, through obedience, having a role in redemption--all without any of them ever being 'co-Saviors' or 'co-Redeemers'.

What irritates me is that if someone wants to throw such an accusation around, claiming "blasphemy", then isn't it reasonable to expect that the entire history of the matter is first researched rather than just spreading gossip without even bothering to read up on the hows and whys some likened the comparison of co-redeemer to that of Paul and the Apostles role in salvation? This opinion (with good reason) was never formal dogma in the Catholic faith, but we can still appreciate Mary and the Apostles' roles in salvation and redemption.

We don't get into a snit about either.

Accusations of blasphemy and comparing prayerful union of Catholics with others in the Body of Christ to necromancy truly is getting into a snit--just as I am in a snit about such accusations being thrown at the Catholic faith.

God's Kingdom, and God's Plan of Salvation, encompasses so much more than any individual in prayer with God. It is not merely the individual and God in his/her own private prayer bubble. God loves all and wants all living in his Kingdom. He wants us to be as one as he is one with the Son and the Holy Spirit--to respect and truly love one another. Some are fond of thinking that if there were only one person here on Earth, God still would have sent Christ to redeem that one person. Nice sentiment, but the reality is that there is a great many--millions, if not billions and trillions--down through the ages that God has redeemed. There is not only a single one of us, but an innumerable number that God has gathered to himself. We should be in awe of that.

I truly get the importance of one establishing their own relationship with God. That can never be set aside, nor should it be. But nor should it be assumed that our main relationship in Kingdom living is the only part of Kingdom life.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Nope. No snit. Just facts.

Co-Redemptrix​

Wikipedia
Co-Redemptrix is a title used by some Catholics for the Blessed Virgin Mary, and refers to Mary's role in the redemption of all peoples.
Where it concerns post-Assumption graces, it is a pious opinion that the entirety of them come through the "intercession" of Mary

According to scripture, we have one intercessor. Jesus Christ. The dead do not intercede on behalf of the living.
If Mary didn't instruct people to pray to her, using beads as a conduit, when she was alive, I don't believe she appeared a few hundred years later, to one person and told them to pray to her, and she'll pass it on. Mary is the mother of the one and only one who does redeem.
Instead of on again, off again dogma, why not just refer to scripture for your doctrine? If doctrine is correct, you should be able to verify it through scripture.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I am not just a Catholic, I am an informed one. I have read the Bible and I have studied Church history

And therein lies your problem. You should have studied the Bible and read the history...

 

[Meriweather]

Nope. No snit. Just facts.

Then keep going with the facts...that it was never Catholic dogma, merely opinions of some--and the reason why some held the opinion has already been laid out. No use trying to double down, it doesn't work.