Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[Meriweather]

I have absolutely no problem with Catholics. Husband is one. My 9 brothers and sisters-in-laws are Catholic. Most of my friends are Catholic, and I love them all. So you are mistaken. And feel free to believe what ever you want.
My issue is with religious dogma that leads astray. When someone proclaims that Jesus started the Catholic church, and Peter was the first Pope, then I am compelled to prove that Peter was dead for 300 years before there was a church or Pope. And that Peter started his church in Jerusalem, and preached there until his arrest, not Rome. I don't even take offense at being told I'm going to hell for not believing it. I take offense at false doctrine that is contrary to scripture.

So, quote the scripture that says Mary is also a mediatrix, or that she is also an advocate on our behalf. Where is the scripture that calls Mary the new Eve, since a new Eve is totally unnecessary.

I didn't say you had trouble with your Catholic relatives and friends. I said you had trouble with the Catholic Church. I note you do not deny that. Jesus did start the Church that became known as 'catholic' because it was open to all (as compared to Judaism where the Temple was open only to Jews). You ignore--and choose to be blind--of three hundred years of Church history and to me, that denotes hatred. Keep in mind etymology of 'church', which in Biblical times was understood as a congregation or a group of people. A group of people followed Jesus, and continued to follow the Apostles after Jesus' ascension and the descent of the Holy Spirit. That was the 'church' of that time. If you don't care for Church tradition that both Peter and Paul were in Rome and that Peter died and is buried there, then dismiss that tradition and grave on the grounds you know better than early Church tradition.

Peter was the first leader Jesus assigned to his Church/congregation (however you wish to term it). If you are familiar with the Old Testament, you are aware that when the King leaves, he gives to his emissary the keys and the authority to run things in his absence. Jesus did exactly this with Peter, and it is recorded in the Bible. But ignore that, too.

Why do you want a scripture saying Mary is a mediator? Do you wish to be assured that she is not? Then read what I have posted four times now that the Catholic Church says she is not. You seem to be the only one insisting that she is. Everyone else seems clear on Mary's role as handmaiden of the Lord, the New Eve, who was obedient to God. That is her only role in God's plan of redemption and salvation. If you insist this makes her a co-mediator, that is your opinion, your dogma, not the dogma of the Catholic faith. If you wish to promote Mary to mediator, you're on your own. If you wish to put your words into the mouth of the Church, it still does not make them Church words--only your misguided words--and you are still on your own.

 

[The Irish Ram]

lol. The scripture calls Jesus the Second Adam. Where does it say that His mother is the New Eve?
Peter started Christ's church in Jerusalem, not Rome. Brought 3,000 into the church, in Jerusalem, in one day. If Jesus started the Catholic church, is that where He will return? To be the Head Pope for 1,000 years? Does He set up His kingdom in Rome?
And why would Jesus pay such close attention to the churches that Paul started and not even mention His own Catholic one?

And yes, Peter died in Rome not as the first Pope but an escaped prisoner who had to flee Israel.
The Catholic church actually dug through the bones of the dead in the catacombs until they decided some of the bones must surely be Peters, and declared them as such.

And for the last time, The Vatican ll gave Mary the upgrade, not I:
"They noted that Vatican II had already stated that the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." Nor, as some Catholics believe, is she a co-redemptrix.
That is false doctrine. There is only one. Jesus.
I've said all I need to say on the subject.

 

[hadit]

Why do you think Mary was chosen among women?

She was God's choice, it's not my call as to why. Why did He choose Samson to be a judge? Why did he choose David to be a king? God does not choose perfect people, He chooses imperfect people and uses them for His purposes.

 

[hadit]

Why did you cut and run over the rapture? Are you an evangelical?

Because I'm not debating that right now.

 

[surada]

lol. The scripture calls Jesus the Second Adam. Where does it say that His mother is the New Eve?
Peter started Christ's church in Jerusalem, not Rome. Brought 3,000 into the church, in Jerusalem, in one day. If Jesus started the Catholic church, is that where He will return? To be the Head Pope for 1,000 years? Does He set up His kingdom in Rome?
And why would Jesus pay such close attention to the churches that Paul started and not even mention His own Catholic one?

And yes, Peter died in Rome not as the first Pope but an escaped prisoner who had to flee Israel.
The Catholic church actually dug through the bones of the dead in the catacombs until they decided some of the bones must surely be Peters, and declared them as such.

And for the last time, The Vatican ll gave Mary the upgrade, not I:
"They noted that Vatican II had already stated that the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." Nor, as some Catholics believe, is she a co-redemptrix.
That is false doctrine. There is only one. Jesus.
I've said all I need to say on the subject.

The attacks on Virgin Mary go back to the 1500s with the slaughter of Huguenots . There were accusations of witchcraft against those who venerated Mary.

 

[surada]

She was God's choice, it's not my call as to why. Why did He choose Samson to be a judge? Why did he choose David to be a king? God does not choose perfect people, He chooses imperfect people and uses them for His purposes.

What does God say about Mary?

 

[Meriweather]

And for the last time, The Vatican ll gave Mary the upgrade, not I:
"They noted that Vatican II had already stated that the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." Nor, as some Catholics believe, is she a co-redemptrix.

Still refuse to read the words immediately following: This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. Why are you so very determined to remain in your lie? You can't even find where your lie has ever been Catholic dogma. People noted that Adam sinned and Jesus did not--and had no problem calling him the New Adam. They also noted that Eve sinned but Mary did not, and recognized she was the New Eve. You are okay with Jesus being called the New Adam but when Mary is then likewise--for the same reasoning--is called the New Eve, you can't stand it. Why?

Peter was the first Pope, then I am compelled to prove that Peter was dead for 300 years before there was a church or Pope.

This is so sad. You believe no one followed Jesus until three hundred years had gone by. You have no belief that Peter became the leader of the Apostles. In fact, the followers of Jesus continued to follow him and his teachings and the teachings of the Apostles from the day of Pentecost. Eventually these people became known as Christians and then, as it was a group open to all, also began being reference as Catholic--and this was less than a hundred years after the Ascension of Jesus.

But I guess there is no reason why you shouldn't create your own meanings for words and your own history when the alternative is absolutely unbearable to you. Live in your comfortable vacuum believing Christ's church popped up without Peter or any of the Apostles 300 years after his death. Believe that his mother had no special role and deserves no honor--and that people who do honor her should be stomped on. Again...those whose faith is based on tearing at another faith, have no faith worthy of proclaiming or they would be proud and excited to share those beliefs. Whatever those beliefs are, they are clearly weaker than the Catholic faith, since you feel you must first make up ways to tear down the Catholic faith before your own faith even has a chance.

Think about it. Perhaps someday you can share your faith with me (and others) without taking one shot at the Catholic faith. Right now it appears that your own faith gives you so little to do and so little comfort you feel the only thing left for you is to attack another faith.

 

[hadit]

What does God say about Mary?

You can read what He said. Cut to the chase, where are you trying to go with this?

 

[The Irish Ram]

They also noted that Eve sinned but Mary did not, and recognized she was the New Eve. You are okay with Jesus being called the New Adam but when Mary is then likewise--for the same reasoning--is called the New Eve, you can't stand it. Why?

Because it's false doctrine. Why did Mary call God her savior? Sin free requires no saving.
The original sin is passed from Adam on down through the male. Jesus didn't have a human male father. Mary did.
When scripture says we ALL fall short, that means we ALL fall short. False doctrine makes scripture a liar.

So, find the scripture that says we all have sinned except Mary. The second Adam is Biblical and explains why it was necessary. What scripture defines Mary as a second Eve and explains why?

 

[hadit]

Because it's false doctrine. Why did Mary call God her savior? Sin free requires no saving.
The original sin is passed from Adam on down through the male. Jesus didn't have a human male father. Mary did.
When scripture says we ALL fall short, that means we ALL fall short. False doctrine makes scripture a liar.

So, find the scripture that says we all have sinned except Mary. The second Adam is Biblical and explains why it was necessary. What scripture defines Mary as a second Eve and explains why?

This is a big issue for me. If Mary was truly sinless, either she could have taken His place on the cross or Jesus didn't have to die for the sin of mankind, because man could stand justified before God without Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[The Irish Ram]

This is a big issue for me. If Mary was truly sinless, either she could have taken His place on the cross or Jesus didn't have to die for the sin of mankind, because man could stand justified before God without Jesus' sacrifice.

Absolutely correct.
Mary was well aware that she too needed a savior. This is what she said:

Luke 1:46-48.. My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my SAVIOR. For he has looked upon the humble estate of his servant...

She was absolutely wonderful. But she didn't perceive herself as sin free. The Catholic faith believes she was pre-saved. But that is conjecture on their part. There is nothing anywhere that eludes to that premise.

 

[Meriweather]

Because it's false doctrine.

How is it false doctrine? Is it false doctrine that Jesus, by his obedience is the New Adam? Then it cannot be false doctrine that through her obedience Mary can legitimately be described as the New Eve. This is even mentioned by early Church Fathers. Guess what else Early Church Fathers compared Mary to? The moon. She has no light of her own, she reflects the light of Christ. I'll bet you are already planning to go out and proclaim Catholics believe Mary is the moon. Shrug. Have fun.

So, find the scripture that says we all have sinned except Mary. The second Adam is Biblical and explains why it was necessary. What scripture defines Mary as a second Eve and explains why?

Why not first explain how someone who is filled with God's grace can sin. Is it also your belief God's grace cannot overcome sin?

 

[Meriweather]

This is a big issue for me. If Mary was truly sinless, either she could have taken His place on the cross or Jesus didn't have to die for the sin of mankind, because man could stand justified before God without Jesus' sacrifice.

How so? This goes back to Adam and Eve knowing both good and evil. Do you want to be so filled with grace you do not have knowledge of both good and evil? Or is it preferable to be redeemed and still keep our knowledge of both good and evil?

Second, Jesus is divine, One with God. Mary is not. Could mankind have been redeemed by a human, or does it take God himself to redeem mankind?

 

[The Irish Ram]

How is it false doctrine? Is it false doctrine that Jesus, by his obedience is the New Adam? Then it cannot be false doctrine that through her obedience Mary can legitimately be described as the New Eve. This is even mentioned by early Church Fathers. Guess what else Early Church Fathers compared Mary to? The moon. She has no light of her own, she reflects the light of Christ. I'll bet you are already planning to go out and proclaim Catholics believe Mary is the moon. Shrug. Have fun.


Why not first explain how someone who is filled with God's grace can sin. Is it also your belief God's grace cannot overcome sin?

Jesus by His genealogy, is the second Adam. Jewish Jesus kept Jewish Law. He is our kinsman redeemer, which meant He had to be related to Adam to qualify in removing the original sin. Jesus met the requirements to fulfill that Jewish Law. His pure blood accomplished it.
He was also obedient.

What is mentioned by one church father, is denied by another down the road. That is because the doctrine is man borne and not God breathed.

You bet wrong.

Yes, I can explain how someone filled with God's grace can sin. Cue King David. < more than once.
And the answer to your last question can be found in scripture:

Romans 5:20-21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound

 

[The Irish Ram]

Second, Jesus is divine, One with God. Mary is not. Could mankind have been redeemed by a human, or does it take God himself to redeem mankind?

How would you possibly know since you are hanging your beliefs on what the church fathers tell you to believe? It is, then it isn't. It is then it isn't.
Your church fathers gave you a co-redemptrix, then they didn't. Some did, some didn't.

Co-Redemptrix (also spelled Coredemptrix; Co-Redemptress is an equivalent term) is a title used by some Catholics for the Blessed Virgin Mary, and refers to Mary's role in the redemption of all peoples.[1]
According to those who use the term, Co-Redemptrix refers to a subordinate but essential participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption, notably that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, which meant sharing his life, suffering, and death, which were redemptive for the world. Related to this belief is the concept of Mary as Mediatrix, which is a separate concept but regularly included by Catholics who use the title Co-Redemptrix. Some, in particular the adherents of the Amsterdam visions, have petitioned for a dogmatic definition, along with Mediatrix.[2]
The concept was especially common in the late Middle Ages, when it was promoted heavily among the Franciscans, and often resisted by the Dominicans.
^
Do you just flip a coin? Heads, you're Franciscan, tails, you're Dominican?

Why does the apparition of Mary only appear to Catholics? Why never to the Presbyterians? Why doesn't she show up in the synagogues? She's Jewish, after all.
Do you honestly believe that a Catholic man in the 13th century had a dream or a vision that told him to pray to her??? Is Mary that arrogant, or is she just Franciscan?

 

[ding]

How would you possibly know since you are hanging your beliefs on what the church fathers tell you to believe?

Does your church have pastors and/or deacons?

 

[hadit]

How so? This goes back to Adam and Eve knowing both good and evil. Do you want to be so filled with grace you do not have knowledge of both good and evil? Or is it preferable to be redeemed and still keep our knowledge of both good and evil?

Second, Jesus is divine, One with God. Mary is not. Could mankind have been redeemed by a human, or does it take God himself to redeem mankind?

It's very simple. Did Mary need a savior? If not, there was no need for Jesus to die for her and it is possible for man to stand justified before God under his own merits. Mary being full of grace is not the same as her being completely sinless her entire life.

 

[Meriweather]

How would you possibly know since you are hanging your beliefs on what the church fathers tell you to believe? It is, then it isn't. It is then it isn't.
Your church fathers gave you a co-redemptrix, then they didn't. Some did, some didn't.

There is nothing more about this to discuss with you. I've gone over it with you from start to finish, beginning with Early Church and the medieval church contrasting Mary's obedience with Eve's disobedience. From there I went to Vatican II where discussion of this continued and where it was confirmed that while some held opinion, it had never been Church dogma, and nor would Vatican II include it as Church dogma. Also included (and even confirmed by your Dayton University) the language translations are not always precise meanings from the original language. Basically, Irish Ram, this is something I have studied, and unlike you I go back centuries and I use primary studies and etymology. I understand why the opinions came about, how languages differ, and why the Church declined to make this dogma.

Since you raised the topic, I mistakenly thought you might be interested in what my studies taught me. It is obvious that you are not at all interested and intend to keep broadcasting your false statements despite the fact Catholic doctrine from the time of the Apostles to this day has been there is one mediator between God and mankind, and that one mediator is Jesus Christ. Since you could not care less about this, there is no need to continue.

Why does the apparition of Mary only appear to Catholics? Why never to the Presbyterians? Why doesn't she show up in the synagogues? She's Jewish, after all.
Do you honestly believe that a Catholic man in the 13th century had a dream or a vision that told him to pray to her??? Is Mary that arrogant, or is she just Franciscan?

You cannot seem to help throwing digs at Mary. Why is this? Have you considered that Mary does the will of God only and goes only to where God sends her. She is obedient to God's will. Always.

So why not a Presbyterian? At all times I start with the primary premise that God is love. Catholics believe in the living Body of Christ consisting of both those presently living on earth and of those who have passed on. Meanwhile you have stated more than once that it is your opinion this is merely Catholics dabbling with Mediums and Necromancy, which could not be further from the truth. However, as it is your belief, and the fact God is love, my guess (not stated as a fact) is that we can be relatively confident that God would not wish to have anyone disturbed by thinking they are going outside their beliefs and treading into the area of Mediums and Necromancy. Again, just a wild guess on my part...but it is based on a certain logic.

 

[Meriweather]

Did Mary need a savior?

She said she did. She said to Elizabeth that her spirit rejoices in God, her Savior.

 

[The Irish Ram]

She said she did. She said to Elizabeth that her spirit rejoices in God, her Savior.

From what did she need saving?