Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[The Irish Ram]

During the International Mariological Congress at Czestochowa, Poland:
There was unanimous agreement at the meeting that the Holy See not make such a declaration at this time. There were two reasons for this decision: the first dealt with the theological clarifications which must first be made, and the second dealt with the ecumenical dialogue. In accord with the precedent set at Vatican II, the participants agreed that a doctrinal declaration should not "settle questions which have not yet been fully clarified by the work of theologians". They noted that Vatican II had already stated that the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
^
Find me the scripture that confirms that Mary is our advocate, helper, benefactress and mediator, and you will have won the debate.

1John 2:1 "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Psalm 103:2-5 Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with loving kindness and tender mercies, Who satisfies your mouth with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle's. As important as it is to not forget His benefits, it is paramount that we give praise to the Benefactor.

1 Tim: 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.​

 

[Meriweather]

During the International Mariological Congress at Czestochowa, Poland:
There was unanimous agreement at the meeting that the Holy See not make such a declaration at this time. There were two reasons for this decision: the first dealt with the theological clarifications which must first be made, and the second dealt with the ecumenical dialogue. In accord with the precedent set at Vatican II, the participants agreed that a doctrinal declaration should not "settle questions which have not yet been fully clarified by the work of theologians". They noted that Vatican II had already stated that the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
^
Find me the scripture that confirms that Mary is our advocate, helper, benefactress and mediator, and you will have won the debate.

1John 2:1 "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Psalm 103:2-5 Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with loving kindness and tender mercies, Who satisfies your mouth with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle's. As important as it is to not forget His benefits, it is paramount that we give praise to the Benefactor.

1 Tim: 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.​

Really? The University of Dayton--Who upfront admitted those terms are subject to "ambiguous and different interpretations."

Why not go straight to the Vatican, the Lumen Gentium? It uses these titles for Mary:

• Mother of the Church
• Mother of God
• Participant in the Economy of Salvation
• The New Eve (because of her obedience to God)
• Handmaid of the Lord
• Queen of the Universe
• Model of Virtues
• Sign of Hope and Solace

Instead of the Vatican, why choose the University of Dayton as your source for material on the Catholic faith?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Really? The University of Dayton--Who upfront admitted those terms are subject to "ambiguous and different interpretations."

Why not go straight to the Vatican, the Lumen Gentium? It uses these titles for Mary:

• Mother of the Church
• Mother of God
• Participant in the Economy of Salvation
• The New Eve (because of her obedience to God)
• Handmaid of the Lord
• Queen of the Universe
• Model of Virtues
• Sign of Hope and Solace

Instead of the Vatican, why choose the University of Dayton as your source for material on the Catholic faith?

lol. The quote is FROM the Lumen Gentium 54 and LG 62. The University of Dayton is quoting the Vatican.
Instead of going after the messenger, just quote the scripture that affirms the Vatican's position. Quote the scripture that tells us we have 2 mediators.

 

[Meriweather]

lol. The quote is FROM the Lumen Gentium 54 and LG 62. The University of Dayton is quoting the Vatican.
Instead of going after the messenger, just quote the scripture that affirms the Vatican's position. Quote the scripture that tells us we have 2 mediators.

54. Wherefore this Holy Synod, in expounding the doctrine on the Church, in which the divine Redeemer works salvation, intends to describe with diligence both the role of the Blessed Virgin in the mystery of the Incarnate Word and the Mystical Body, and the duties of redeemed mankind toward the Mother of God, who is mother of Christ and mother of men, particularly of the faithful. It does not, however, have it in mind to give a complete doctrine on Mary, nor does it wish to decide those questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified. Those opinions therefore may be lawfully retained which are propounded in Catholic schools concerning her, who occupies a place in the Church which is the highest after Christ and yet very close to us.(4*)
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)

Note the referrals to both other paragraphs and footnotes. Did you also study these? Do you understand the context? I could copy and paste these, but I'm guessing it would just be a waste of time as you seem convinced you understand Catholic doctrine/dogma better than the Catholic Church and are convinced you should teach your own knowledge, not that of the source.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The Vatican can't add then. 1+1=2. Jesus plus Mary equals 2 mediators. The Bible clearly tells us there is only one mediator. One advocate.
As for auxiliary Mary:
Auxiliary: providing supplementary or additional help and support. Extra, back-up, supplemental, spare, substitute...

We have one redeemer and he didn't rely on any human to fulfill His mission. He needed no help.

 

[Meriweather]

We have one redeemer and he didn't rely on any human to fulfill His mission. He needed no help.

Interesting perspective. Without a mother to agree to give birth, without Apostles and their successors to learn and spread the message of salvation and redemption both orally and in writing, without anyone hearing or reading anything, Christ could redeem the world, no one else needed. I wonder why God's plan included using humans or even letting us know we are redeemed.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Interesting perspective. Without a mother to agree to give birth, without Apostles and their successors to learn and spread the message of salvation and redemption both orally and in writing, without anyone hearing or reading anything, Christ could redeem the world, no one else needed. I wonder why God's plan included using humans or even letting us know we are redeemed.

Wonder no more. Here is why the plan included humans:
Because Jesus, who fulfilled Jewish Law, had to become human to be our kinsman redeemer. He had to be kin to Adam to reclaim what Adam forfeited. That is why Jesus is called the second Adam. As per Jewish Law, a kinsman redeemer is a relative who, at his own expense, pays off the debts of another.

Jesus had a mom and dad, believers who followed Him and paid for supplies, sewed clothes, cooked meals etc. and none of them had anything to do with our redemption. God bless them all for taking such good care of our redeemer. Nevertheless, that did not give any of them godly attributes.

Isaiah 47:4 Our Redeemer—the Lord of hosts is his name— is the Holy One of Israel.​

According to scripture, no one has co-opted the role...

 

[surada]

Wonder no more. Here is why the plan included humans:
Because Jesus, who fulfilled Jewish Law, had to become human to be our kinsman redeemer. He had to be kin to Adam to reclaim what Adam forfeited. That is why Jesus is called the second Adam. As per Jewish Law, a kinsman redeemer is a relative who, at his own expense, pays off the debts of another.

Jesus had a mom and dad, believers who followed Him and paid for supplies, sewed clothes, cooked meals etc. and none of them had anything to do with our redemption. God bless them all for taking such good care of our redeemer. Nevertheless, that did not give any of them godly attributes.

Isaiah 47:4 Our Redeemer—the Lord of hosts is his name— is the Holy One of Israel.​

According to scripture, no one has co-opted the role...

There's nothing about Jesus in Isaiah 47.

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 47 - New International Version

The Fall of Babylon - “Go down, sit in the dust, Virgin Daughter Babylon; sit on the ground without a throne, queen city of the Babylonians. No more will you be called tender or delicate. Take millstones and grind flour; take off your veil. Lift up your skirts, bare your legs, and wade through...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Meriweather]

According to scripture, no one has co-opted the role...

No one has ever said anyone co-opted Christ's role.

In a movie, does anyone co-opt the star's role? No. However, aren't there any number of supporting roles/actors? As you saw, the Catholic Church states, any supporting roles do not take away from nor add anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.

Was Adam alone in the Garden of Eden? Was Adam's sin the sole sin that day? Did sin halt with Adam? Did Sarah have any role in the the births of Isaac and Ishmael or was it Abraham alone? Did Sarah have any role is Ishmael being banished to the desert, or was that all Abraham as well?

What about Rebecca, Jacob, and Esau. Did Rebecca have a role in Jacob stealing Esau's blessing, or was that Esau alone?

In the same way, did Mary's obedience have a role in Jesus' life? Did Jesus alone have the role of proclaiming the Good News? Would we all know about redemption and salvation without Paul and the Apostles?

Again, the supporting roles the others took on did not eclipse the starring role of Jesus. So why the attempt to erase Mary from the scene? Catholics do not see Mary in any way as eclipsing Jesus' role in salvation and redemption. Why do you?

No human has ever lived in a vacuum. Jesus was fully man, so nor did he live in a vacuum. He was like man in every way but sin. There were supporting players in all aspects of his life.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Surada, There is only one Redeemer, and one Savior. If anyone in the Bible is talking about either, then they are referring to Jesus. Isaiah was talking to the Jews that would refuse their Savior. That's why he asked if anybody heard him.

Jesus certainly knew who Isaiah was talking about:

Luke 4:17-21 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.

John reiterates Isaiah:

John 12:37-40 Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says,
“The Lord has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts—
so that their eyes cannot see,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and have me heal them.

Isaiah 52:10 – “The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.

Warriors would go into battle with one arm bare. And salvation comes from Jesus. < That hasn't happened for the Jews yet, so Babylon wasn't fulfilling Isaiah.

 

[The Irish Ram]

No one has ever said anyone co-opted Christ's role.

In a movie, does anyone co-opt the star's role? No. However, aren't there any number of supporting roles/actors? As you saw, the Catholic Church states, any supporting roles do not take away from nor add anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.

Was Adam alone in the Garden of Eden? Was Adam's sin the sole sin that day? Did sin halt with Adam? Did Sarah have any role in the the births of Isaac and Ishmael or was it Abraham alone? Did Sarah have any role is Ishmael being banished to the desert, or was that all Abraham as well?

What about Rebecca, Jacob, and Esau. Did Rebecca have a role in Jacob stealing Esau's blessing, or was that Esau alone?

In the same way, did Mary's obedience have a role in Jesus' life? Did Jesus alone have the role of proclaiming the Good News? Would we all know about redemption and salvation without Paul and the Apostles?

Again, the supporting roles the others took on did not eclipse the starring role of Jesus. So why the attempt to erase Mary from the scene? Catholics do not see Mary in any way as eclipsing Jesus' role in salvation and redemption. Why do you?

No human has ever lived in a vacuum. Jesus was fully man, so nor did he live in a vacuum. He was like man in every way but sin. There were supporting players in all aspects of his life.

Your church said exactly that.

Maybe you missed this part of the Lumen Gentium:
"They noted that Vatican II had already stated that the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"

^Quote the scripture that affirms that.

 

[Meriweather]

Your church said exactly that.

Maybe you missed this part of the Lumen Gentium:
"They noted that Vatican II had already stated that the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"

^Quote the scripture that affirms that.

And once again you left out the other paragraphs, the footnotes, and the statement, "This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."

Before you even quoted your University of Dayton source, I had already explained The New Eve, the obedience, that people as far back as the Middle Ages saw as Mary's role in support of God's plan of salvation and redemption; she noted she was the handmaiden of the Lord. So I am greatly interested in not only how--but why--you turned her role of support into her also being the One Mediator, even though the Catholic Church speaks out against seeing her in the role of One Mediator.

Are you working to slander the Catholic Church, working to bring it down? If so, a quote comes to mind: The reason someone works to bring others down is because they are already below them.

A thorough, in depth reading of the entire Bible lays out the need and the plan of Redemption. Many are involved in both the need and the plan which could not be implemented without God Himself. God involved us, His children, and involving us does not make Him any less God.

You don't wish to pray to Mary. You don't wish to pray the Rosary. You don't wish to include those who have passed on in your prayers. Guess what: No one is making you, and no one cares about your prayer life. It's hard to understand why you feel the need to meddle in the pray lives of others. You don't want Mary cluttering up your vision of Jesus' life. I'm sure that's all right with her. Her purpose is to show Jesus, not block your view of him. Jesus is the King. Throughout Biblical times, it was the King's mother who held the title of Queen. (In those times, a king could have many wives, but he only had one mother, hence the king's mother became known as queen.) Perhaps you don't like the thought of Jesus' mother being referenced as Queen; that when it comes to Mary, Biblical titles should be ignored. So ignore it.

You don't like the Catholic Church, so why not ignore that, too. Every time you work to find some criticism, you get things wrong. You see things only one way--your way. You don't see how people of the Middle Ages saw the roles of those who knew Jesus personally as supporting roles. Most who love Jesus, still to this day, want some kind of supporting role in the unfolding plan of salvation and redemption.

People should be so busy presenting their own faith, their own church denomination to ever have time to bother with any other denomination.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I have absolutely no problem with Catholics. Husband is one. My 9 brothers and sisters-in-laws are Catholic. Most of my friends are Catholic, and I love them all. So you are mistaken. And feel free to believe what ever you want.
My issue is with religious dogma that leads astray. When someone proclaims that Jesus started the Catholic church, and Peter was the first Pope, then I am compelled to prove that Peter was dead for 300 years before there was a church or Pope. And that Peter started his church in Jerusalem, and preached there until his arrest, not Rome. I don't even take offense at being told I'm going to hell for not believing it. I take offense at false doctrine that is contrary to scripture.

So, quote the scripture that says Mary is also a mediatrix, or that she is also an advocate on our behalf. Where is the scripture that calls Mary the new Eve, since a new Eve is totally unnecessary.

 

[surada]

Surada, There is only one Redeemer, and one Savior. If anyone in the Bible is talking about either, then they are referring to Jesus. Isaiah was talking to the Jews that would refuse their Savior. That's why he asked if anybody heard him.

Jesus certainly knew who Isaiah was talking about:

Luke 4:17-21 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.

John reiterates Isaiah:

John 12:37-40 Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says,
“The Lord has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts—
so that their eyes cannot see,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and have me heal them.

Isaiah 52:10 – “The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.

Warriors would go into battle with one arm bare. And salvation comes from Jesus. < That hasn't happened for the Jews yet, so Babylon wasn't fulfilling Isaiah.

Still nothing about Jesus in Isaiah.

Luke never met Jesus.

 

[ding]

Still nothing about Jesus in Isaiah.

Luke never met Jesus.

Isaiah 53

 

[The Irish Ram]

Still nothing about Jesus in Isaiah.

Luke never met Jesus.

Tell Jesus then, He said Isaiah was prophesying about Him.

 

[surada]

Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53 is about God's servant Israel. Read all of Isaiah.

Luke and Paul never met Jesus.

Why Are Mark and Luke Not Named as Disciples? - Patterns of Truth

Question: I always thought Mark and Luke were among the 12 disciples. But, they are not listed in Matthew 10. So who are these guys? I know Luke was a

patternsoftruth.org

Luke is an interesting writer because he did not know Jesus Christ personally. He became a follower after the Lord's death, when Paul taught him the gospel. Luke had been a physician, but he left that profession to travel with Paul.

 

[buttercup]

Tell Jesus then, He said Isaiah was prophesying about Him.

Surada know better than Jesus, donchya know?

lol

 

[ding]

Isaiah 53 is about God's servant Israel. Read all of Isaiah.

I disagree. Read all of Isaiah 53.

 

[surada]

Surada know better than Jesus, donchya know?

lol

Really? Please post that scripture.