Here’s why people flipping burgers and dunking fries SHOULD receive $15 per hour

[DGS49]

The cost of being financially emancipated (self-supporting) has no logical connection with the value of unskilled labor.

The minimum wage itself is an economic abomination, as even that Leftist Economic Icon Paul Krugman has admitted IN WRITING (before he became a Democrat hack writer).

If an employer can find sufficient numbers of capable, willing people to perform a function at a given wage, then why on earth would he pay more? And what right does the Federal Government have to dictate wages (hint: It has no such power)?

When ANY commodity has its price inflated above its true economic value, then there are three inevitable results: (1) the consumers of that commodity will use less of it, (2) the consumers of that commodity will seek out alternatives, and (3) if the difference between the economic value and the price is sufficient, a black market will come into existence to fill the need, at the appropriate market price.

These principles apply whether you are talking about potato chips, taxi cab rides, or unskilled labor. In the case of unskilled labor, (a) hours will be cut, (b) the employer will look to automation, labor-saving tools, and contracting out, and (c) the employer will start using "under the table" workers.

It is rather well documented and well-known that the keys to financial solvency are: graduate from high school, get a job, and don't have babies unless you are married. While MW is not sufficient to support oneself, TWO PEOPLE earning MW can probably cut it in most locales, and if not, they will not be MW workers for long, unless they are....well, I won't write it.

 

[Billy000]

so their low wage job is tougher than other low wage jobs?.....

This job was singled out in another thread. I’m just defending it. My overall point, is that people need at least $15 per hour to survive. Raising the minimum wage is a separate issue, however. I don’t believe it should just become the new standard over night. Gradually raising the min wage over time should have begun decades ago.

Then get 2 part time jobs?

Yeah that’s a wonderful solution. Forget about the misery of doing that for the rest of their lives. That doesn’t matter. Their kids can go ahead and find a way to feed themselves in the process.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor. The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty. Wages for the poor are way behind on the rise of cost of living. As a point of reference, the last time someone could get by on $10.00 per hour was in the 1960s. In fact, if the minimum wage had kept up with the rate of inflation, it should be $20.00 per hour. Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide. (And no, I am not suggesting we just magically make the min wage $20 per hour).

Now, of course, cons will say “well those people should just learn new skills and get a better job!” The problem with this, however, is that the average age of a fast food worker is 35. This isn’t entirely by choice - it’s just the most readily available job one can get. Higher wage jobs in this country are extremely competitive. Low wage jobs greatly outnumber higher wage jobs. This means millions of workers have NO CHOICE but to accept shit paying jobs. More importantly, if these people are making shit wages, how the hell could they find the time and money to learn new skills to get better paying jobs? That is part of the cycle of poverty.

One final point: I’ve never worked fast food, but like many, I’ve been a customer to these businesses. We all know these people just don’t stand around “flipping burgers and dunking fries”. That is a big oversimplification of the job. They all have to take turns running the drive thru, the front registers, and prepare food. It’s non-stop labor from the start of their shift to the end. On top of that, they have to deal with the biggest kind of asshole customers on the planet.

Tough shit. The work they perform has minimal value. They are not worth $15.00 per hour.

C3PO will do it for free after initial construction costs.

Objective economic reality trumps your immature take on the value of labor.

Whose economic reality?

 

[Billy000]

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor. The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty. Wages for the poor are way behind on the rise of cost of living. As a point of reference, the last time someone could get by on $10.00 per hour was in the 1960s. In fact, if the minimum wage had kept up with the rate of inflation, it should be $20.00 per hour. Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide. (And no, I am not suggesting we just magically make the min wage $20 per hour).

Now, of course, cons will say “well those people should just learn new skills and get a better job!” The problem with this, however, is that the average age of a fast food worker is 35. This isn’t entirely by choice - it’s just the most readily available job one can get. Higher wage jobs in this country are extremely competitive. Low wage jobs greatly outnumber higher wage jobs. This means millions of workers have NO CHOICE but to accept shit paying jobs. More importantly, if these people are making shit wages, how the hell could they find the time and money to learn new skills to get better paying jobs? That is part of the cycle of poverty.

One final point: I’ve never worked fast food, but like many, I’ve been a customer to these businesses. We all know these people just don’t stand around “flipping burgers and dunking fries”. That is a big oversimplification of the job. They all have to take turns running the drive thru, the front registers, and prepare food. It’s non-stop labor from the start of their shift to the end. On top of that, they have to deal with the biggest kind of asshole customers on the planet.

Tough shit. The work they perform has minimal value. They are not worth $15.00 per hour.

C3PO will do it for free after initial construction costs.

Objective economic reality trumps your immature take on the value of labor.

Who's economic reality?

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor. The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty. Wages for the poor are way behind on the rise of cost of living. As a point of reference, the last time someone could get by on $10.00 per hour was in the 1960s. In fact, if the minimum wage had kept up with the rate of inflation, it should be $20.00 per hour. Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide. (And no, I am not suggesting we just magically make the min wage $20 per hour).

Now, of course, cons will say “well those people should just learn new skills and get a better job!” The problem with this, however, is that the average age of a fast food worker is 35. This isn’t entirely by choice - it’s just the most readily available job one can get. Higher wage jobs in this country are extremely competitive. Low wage jobs greatly outnumber higher wage jobs. This means millions of workers have NO CHOICE but to accept shit paying jobs. More importantly, if these people are making shit wages, how the hell could they find the time and money to learn new skills to get better paying jobs? That is part of the cycle of poverty.

One final point: I’ve never worked fast food, but like many, I’ve been a customer to these businesses. We all know these people just don’t stand around “flipping burgers and dunking fries”. That is a big oversimplification of the job. They all have to take turns running the drive thru, the front registers, and prepare food. It’s non-stop labor from the start of their shift to the end. On top of that, they have to deal with the biggest kind of asshole customers on the planet.

Tough shit. The work they perform has minimal value. They are not worth $15.00 per hour.

C3PO will do it for free after initial construction costs.

Objective economic reality trumps your immature take on the value of labor.

Who's economic reality?

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

 

[Billy000]

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor. The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty. Wages for the poor are way behind on the rise of cost of living. As a point of reference, the last time someone could get by on $10.00 per hour was in the 1960s. In fact, if the minimum wage had kept up with the rate of inflation, it should be $20.00 per hour. Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide. (And no, I am not suggesting we just magically make the min wage $20 per hour).

Now, of course, cons will say “well those people should just learn new skills and get a better job!” The problem with this, however, is that the average age of a fast food worker is 35. This isn’t entirely by choice - it’s just the most readily available job one can get. Higher wage jobs in this country are extremely competitive. Low wage jobs greatly outnumber higher wage jobs. This means millions of workers have NO CHOICE but to accept shit paying jobs. More importantly, if these people are making shit wages, how the hell could they find the time and money to learn new skills to get better paying jobs? That is part of the cycle of poverty.

One final point: I’ve never worked fast food, but like many, I’ve been a customer to these businesses. We all know these people just don’t stand around “flipping burgers and dunking fries”. That is a big oversimplification of the job. They all have to take turns running the drive thru, the front registers, and prepare food. It’s non-stop labor from the start of their shift to the end. On top of that, they have to deal with the biggest kind of asshole customers on the planet.

Tough shit. The work they perform has minimal value. They are not worth $15.00 per hour.

C3PO will do it for free after initial construction costs.

Objective economic reality trumps your immature take on the value of labor.

Who's economic reality?

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

 

[aaronleland]

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor. The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty. Wages for the poor are way behind on the rise of cost of living. As a point of reference, the last time someone could get by on $10.00 per hour was in the 1960s. In fact, if the minimum wage had kept up with the rate of inflation, it should be $20.00 per hour. Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide. (And no, I am not suggesting we just magically make the min wage $20 per hour).

Now, of course, cons will say “well those people should just learn new skills and get a better job!” The problem with this, however, is that the average age of a fast food worker is 35. This isn’t entirely by choice - it’s just the most readily available job one can get. Higher wage jobs in this country are extremely competitive. Low wage jobs greatly outnumber higher wage jobs. This means millions of workers have NO CHOICE but to accept shit paying jobs. More importantly, if these people are making shit wages, how the hell could they find the time and money to learn new skills to get better paying jobs? That is part of the cycle of poverty.

One final point: I’ve never worked fast food, but like many, I’ve been a customer to these businesses. We all know these people just don’t stand around “flipping burgers and dunking fries”. That is a big oversimplification of the job. They all have to take turns running the drive thru, the front registers, and prepare food. It’s non-stop labor from the start of their shift to the end. On top of that, they have to deal with the biggest kind of asshole customers on the planet.

Tough shit. The work they perform has minimal value. They are not worth $15.00 per hour.

C3PO will do it for free after initial construction costs.

The idea that people get paid what they're actually worth has always been a bullshit myth. If the guy serving hundreds of customers a day is of "minimal value" what does that say about the guy at the top being paid millions to push a pencil? We already have computer programs that could replace half of them.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Tough shit. The work they perform has minimal value. They are not worth $15.00 per hour.

C3PO will do it for free after initial construction costs.

Objective economic reality trumps your immature take on the value of labor.

Who's economic reality?

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

 

[Billy000]

Objective economic reality trumps your immature take on the value of labor.

Who's economic reality?

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

 

[TNHarley]

so their low wage job is tougher than other low wage jobs?.....

This job was singled out in another thread. I’m just defending it. My overall point, is that people need at least $15 per hour to survive. Raising the minimum wage is a separate issue, however. I don’t believe it should just become the new standard over night. Gradually raising the min wage over time should have begun decades ago.

Then get 2 part time jobs?

Yeah that’s a wonderful solution. Forget about the misery of doing that for the rest of their lives. That doesn’t matter. Their kids can go ahead and find a way to feed themselves in the process.

flipping burgers for the rest of their lives? LOL that IS misery onto itself. Working another shitty job wont hurt.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Who's economic reality?

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

Poverty will never be alleviated, because human nature is unchangeable.

Some are driven to succeed, some are not.

 

[Billy000]

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

Poverty will never be alleviated, because human nature is unchangeable.

Some are driven to succeed, some are not.

No one ever claimed it can be eliminated. The keyword obviously is “alleviated”.

 

[mudwhistle]

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor. The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty. Wages for the poor are way behind on the rise of cost of living. As a point of reference, the last time someone could get by on $10.00 per hour was in the 1960s. In fact, if the minimum wage had kept up with the rate of inflation, it should be $20.00 per hour. Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide. (And no, I am not suggesting we just magically make the min wage $20 per hour).

Now, of course, cons will say “well those people should just learn new skills and get a better job!” The problem with this, however, is that the average age of a fast food worker is 35. This isn’t entirely by choice - it’s just the most readily available job one can get. Higher wage jobs in this country are extremely competitive. Low wage jobs greatly outnumber higher wage jobs. This means millions of workers have NO CHOICE but to accept shit paying jobs. More importantly, if these people are making shit wages, how the hell could they find the time and money to learn new skills to get better paying jobs? That is part of the cycle of poverty.

One final point: I’ve never worked fast food, but like many, I’ve been a customer to these businesses. We all know these people just don’t stand around “flipping burgers and dunking fries”. That is a big oversimplification of the job. They all have to take turns running the drive thru, the front registers, and prepare food. It’s non-stop labor from the start of their shift to the end. On top of that, they have to deal with the biggest kind of asshole customers on the planet.

Grampa Murked U

I think the harder you work the less you should get paid. The less you work the more you should get paid.

That's why the Obamas came to Washington in debt and left multi-millionaires.

 

[eddiew37]

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

Poverty will never be alleviated, because human nature is unchangeable.

Some are driven to succeed, some are not.

That's true BK but you find something wrong with trying to lift up those "are nots""or are you a republican

 

[mudwhistle]

Are you really this dense? Poor people. Do I really have to spell this out to you?

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

Poverty will never be alleviated, because human nature is unchangeable.

Some are driven to succeed, some are not.

Poverty only exists because money exists......and some people are too lazy to take care of themselves.

 

[eddiew37]

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

Poverty will never be alleviated, because human nature is unchangeable.

Some are driven to succeed, some are not.

Poverty only exists because money exists......and some people are too lazy to take care of themselves.

Just follow my rules Muddy
1 Once you have their money, you never give it back.
3 Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to.
6 Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity.
7 Keep your ears open and your eyes on the mark.
9 Opportunity plus instinct equals profit.
10 Greed is eternal.
16 A deal is a deal.
17 A contract is a contract is a contract... but only between Republicans
18 A Republican without profit is no Republican at all.
21 Never place friendship above profit.
22 A wise man can hear profit in the wind.

 

[SavannahMann]

Yet again, a Liberal has redefined words to mean what they were never intended to mean. I keep running into this. Let me help you out here by giving you the proper definitions, and intentions, of words

Minimum wage. This was a threshold. It did not mean that it was intended to be a living wage It was never intended to be a living wage. What the intent was to communicate this simple message. Anything below that would be considered slave wages. It helped put an end to the “company stores” of lore and legend where you were paid in script, and had to buy what the company offered, at the price the company set.

Minimum wage was never looked at as a living wage. It was and is intended as a starting point. A place where people can begin their work careers. Not find the first job, and stay there for life. Work and careers are viewed as a ladder, where the intention is that you climb upwards, to bigger and better things, with bigger and better paychecks.

The market decides who is worth what. I doubt you could find a Cardiac Surgeon who made less than President Obama. I doubt you could find a Pizza Delivery Driver who made more. The point is that the market decides what a job is worth in compensation.

A master welder will usually make more than the college educated manager who oversees him. A heavy equipment operator will almost always make far more than the managers who oversee them. Truckers make more than the dispatchers who assign the jobs to them.

It comes down to how much do you have to pay to get someone to do the job. Minimum wage jobs are essentially unskilled labor. Not fair to say, but true anyway. The more skills, the more experience you have, the more you can make. The better you are, the more in demand you are.

About a decade ago, I was listening to NPR when they profiled a guy who had changed jobs every year for the last decade. He was a physicist who was working on Cold Fusion. I know, pipe dream. But companies constantly recruited him, and offered him double whatever he was making. So he would take the next job, with the greater compensation offer. The next year, again he’s recruited, and again the money doubled.

His specialty was in high demand, and he was reaping the benefits of that demand. Hardly a new story, we see it all the time in sports, entertainment, and other environment. Where someone takes a new job, and contract, for a larger paycheck than they were getting.

That is the capitalist way. That is the very principle that a successful economy is built upon. We have a bottom rung on the ladder. We decide you can’t work for less than that. We don’t have a top rung. The top rung on that ladder is strictly up to you.

If you build a better tool, you can run the world. Ask a local Icon in Savannah. Paul Bradley. He took a tool his Father designed, and marketed it, and made enough money to put himself through College, and buy a classic Ferrari. Entreprenurial spirit leads to Ferrari donation to SCAD | AccessWDUN.com

There is no top rung. There is no limit to what you can achieve. Even if you only become a good blue collar worker, you can earn those middle class wages. You don’t have to be great. You don’t even have to be very good. Just get a skill, become skilled labor, and then enjoy the life.

Demanding skilled labor wages for unskilled labor is not kind to the workers. It is insulting to them, and to everyone else.

Minimum wage was never intended to be a pseudonym of living wage. It was intended to be the minimum. Anything below that was slave wages.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

Poverty will never be alleviated, because human nature is unchangeable.

Some are driven to succeed, some are not.

No one ever claimed it can be eliminated. The keyword obviously is “alleviated”.

I believe that's the word I wrote.

(Billy looks)

Yup.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

What has that to do with overpaying for low-level work?

It’s not overpaying based on the simple logic of the cost of living standards. If you weren’t a dumb rightwinger, you’d understand that.

I don't a rat's ass about COL. Not my problem. I'll pay what the work is worth to me. If it's not agreeable, move along. I'll find someone else.

Yeah but no one cares what you think anyway. The grown ups are going to find ways to alleviate poverty.

Poverty will never be alleviated, because human nature is unchangeable.

Some are driven to succeed, some are not.

That's true BK but you find something wrong with trying to lift up those "are nots""or are you a republican

No problem at all within private charity, which is not nor has ever legally been a venue of the federal government.

 

[usmbguest5318]

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor. The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty. Wages for the poor are way behind on the rise of cost of living. As a point of reference, the last time someone could get by on $10.00 per hour was in the 1960s. In fact, if the minimum wage had kept up with the rate of inflation, it should be $20.00 per hour. Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide. (And no, I am not suggesting we just magically make the min wage $20 per hour).

Now, of course, cons will say “well those people should just learn new skills and get a better job!” The problem with this, however, is that the average age of a fast food worker is 35. This isn’t entirely by choice - it’s just the most readily available job one can get. Higher wage jobs in this country are extremely competitive. Low wage jobs greatly outnumber higher wage jobs. This means millions of workers have NO CHOICE but to accept shit paying jobs. More importantly, if these people are making shit wages, how the hell could they find the time and money to learn new skills to get better paying jobs? That is part of the cycle of poverty.

One final point: I’ve never worked fast food, but like many, I’ve been a customer to these businesses. We all know these people just don’t stand around “flipping burgers and dunking fries”. That is a big oversimplification of the job. They all have to take turns running the drive thru, the front registers, and prepare food. It’s non-stop labor from the start of their shift to the end. On top of that, they have to deal with the biggest kind of asshole customers on the planet.

Grampa Murked U

When the RIghtwing thinks of $15 per hour, they see it as a symbol of hard work and skilled labor.

Do they? I don't know, but one'd have to be a cave dwelling hermit who simply hasn't a well informed understanding of the "real world," as it were, to seriously entertain such a notion.

The problem with this is that in today’s economy, $15 per hour is a meager wage that in places like Cali or NY still amounts to poverty.....Now you can make the argument that the government shouldn’t raise the min wage, but that wouldn’t change the fact that $20 per hour is what single people need to live on nationwide.

Nationwide minimum wage

The notion that one wage be the minimum hourly wage that is adequate for every locality in the U.S. is the problem with the minimum wage debate at the national level. The same is so with regard to tax rates/brackets. Quite simply, ~$31K/year of gross income buys completely different bundles of goods and services in different places.

• Top U.S. cities for buying power

The concept I described above is called "purchasing power," and if things like federal income tax rates and nationally stipulated minimum wages are to be fair -- both to wage earner and wage payers -- they need to be indexed to something so that they take into account the purchasing power applicable to a given geographical area of a reasonable size (counties, cities and surrounding area up to X miles distant, or some other metric).

Some might think doing that is overly cumbersome, but in this day of computerized "everything," it isn't at all. Indeed, it's something doable in an instant using a spreadsheet, which, frankly, is a rather archaic way to implement the idea, but I've stated it that way to illustrate the simplicity of doing it.

• Purchasing power: using wage statistics with regional price parities to create a standard for comparing wages across U.S. areas