Why do the God-haters persist?

[Montrovant]

Now you are just lying. To ask if I am "BACK" on crack is to insult me as a drug addict, as if the logical genius you pretend to be wouldn't know.

Again, when you come up with some convoluted load of horse shit to try and spin something around and make an impossible point, you should expect people to think you are back on the crack again. I didn't say you were a drug addict, I don't know you. I hope you're not and I encourage you to not do crack before you post.

Back to the point... Most humans believe in something greater than self and always have. Most religious people also believe in something greater than self. AND... even a majority of Atheist people admit that it's possible something greater than self can exist. In fact, only about 5% of the human species are Nihilistic and believe in nothing.

You don't speak for the human species. As I pointed out, many will pretend to be believers for social acceptance, so there is no way for you to know anything as you are not a mind-reader even though you pretend to be one.

Yes, we see people every day, lining up to be called Christians so that society won't ridicule them, make fun of them, call them religious wackos and mock their beliefs! ...Crack is wack, ed!

Because when the vast majority of society are believers of one sort or another, it makes sense that someone would pretend atheism rather than theism to gain acceptance.........

 

[Gadawg73]

How can you hate someone that you believe does not exist?

 

[BreezeWood]

how can there be hatred for all other of life's creatures and expect Admission to the Everlasting ?

 

[newpolitics]

Dawsy's sig: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/ Carl Sagan.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or of acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." ~Carl Sagan


Oh my.

If you're saying that a person can be an atheist or agnostic and still be spiritual and not 'hate" God I totally agree. Sagan fits in this category. I imagine he would think it silly to hate Osiris or Zeus or Yahweh or whatever mythical being you could name.

Sagan quotes:

"If ‘fulfilled prophecy’ is your criterion, why do you not believe in materialistic science, which has an unparalleled record of fulfilled prophecy? Consider, for example, eclipses.”

Or;
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

Sagan thought religion was stupid, because it is. He was pantheist, which is ontologically indistinct from atheism.

 

[Boss]

Dawsy's sig: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/ Carl Sagan.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or of acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." ~Carl Sagan


Oh my.

If you're saying that a person can be an atheist or agnostic and still be spiritual and not 'hate" God I totally agree. Sagan fits in this category. I imagine he would think it silly to hate Osiris or Zeus or Yahweh or whatever mythical being you could name.

Sagan quotes:

"If ‘fulfilled prophecy’ is your criterion, why do you not believe in materialistic science, which has an unparalleled record of fulfilled prophecy? Consider, for example, eclipses.”

Or;
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

Sagan thought religion was stupid, because it is. He was pantheist, which is ontologically indistinct from atheism.

Wrong. Pantheism is completely different from Atheism.

I've been participating in this thread for months now. Defending human spirituality, defending God, deflecting unwarranted criticisms of my "religious" views. I've had people here mistake me for a Christian repeatedly, my sister who is a devout Christian, says I am an Atheist. I am more of a pantheist than Atheist, but I simply call myself a spiritualist.

I believe in a Spiritual God, not out of faith or want to believe, but because I sense the presence of it around me in my daily life and communicate with it regularly. I'm not going to deny that in order to be popular, nor am I going to arbitrarily assign humanistic attributes to it in order to conform to some religion.

 

[emilynghiem]

Funny if you look at my 1970's encyclopedia it says 98% of the people of Greece were Greek Orthodox. First, do you really believe all 98% were really "christians" and believed in god? Then you are gullible. I know many Greek Americans who call themselves Greek Orthodox because they were born into it, but like me and you they don't really believe all the stories.

The Greeks are basically the founders of western culture. We are products of that culture. The Greek philosophers brought the attribute of introspection, questioning of who we are and what we believe, what happens next. It is through that philosophy we have this self-centered belief system which enables us to consider various possibilities regarding Gods and Religions. Native Americans did not have that cultural underpinning. This point seems to be flying comfortably over your head as well as Moonbat's. We're talking about two completely different ways of thinking, schools of thought. Native Americans did not have introspection of self, things didn't revolve around the individual.

As for the indians. If penalty was death, how can you know if anyone really believes or are they all just going along not to be tortured and killed by savage indians? I'm sure some didn't really believe. I have to believe as savage and barbaric as they were they had to have some phylosophers in the bunch. I'm sure even some indians themselves feared savage indians from other tribes, or is that just stuff I saw in movies? Looked like they would concur other tribes, kill the men and take their women. They'd raise their babies though. They were at least kind to children.

I did not say "the penalty was death" ...there was no penalty, it was not an issue. I explained how such an instance would have been handled in the event someone was kicked in the head by a horse or born without a normal brain, and didn't adhere to the Great Spirit. It wasn't something held over their heads... you're gonna 'believe' or we're gonna kill you! Again, you are thinking in western culture terms here and failing to grasp they had a different culture. From their perspective, this was not a "belief" but a truth that was unquestionable.

It is noted that you continue to disrespect these people by calling them "indians" when you've been told that is highly offensive. Apparently, your bigotry is blind and oblivious. As for savagery, they were no more savage than the Nordics or Mongolians. Yes, much of what you believe is due to myths spread by Hollywood.



You wouldn't survive one day with any Native American tribe. You'd start spewing your anti-God nonsense and you'd be history. The scant few white men who ever interacted with Native Americans had to be totally respectful of their spirituality. Somehow, I don't see your bigoted ass being able to pull that off. The Puritans, on the other hand, were able to cohabitate with them because they developed a mutual respect through spirit. For nearly a century, there was no problem between Native Americans and early settlers. Of course, there were some tribes who weren't hospitable, and didn't cotton to white men encroaching on their lands, but all-in-all, the early settlers had a generally good relationship with the Native Americans. We could not have ever colonized otherwise.



I've not tried to prove God. I've also not stated that anything isn't real. You're a hypocrite. You claim the best and most rational position is "we don't know" but then you turn around and argue as if you DO know. This is typical of most bigots, they can't support their opinions but they believe their opinions are empirical and anyone who challenges them are wrong.



If you believe in Karma as you claimed you did several times, and are again tepidly claiming you do... then you are not an atheist or agnostic. You are spiritual, whether you realize it or not. You do believe in something greater than self, Karma. Now it seems to me, the only real difference between you and someone who believes in God is semantics and terminology.

And I do understand there is the non physical. Have you ever taken a tuning rod and hit it and the guy across the room's rod starts making noise? Telepathic stuff. There is so much you and I don't know. I watch these shows. They aren't anti religion but they are scientific shows and just the facts and information they are giving always seems to innocently go against religion. Thats when I understand why religion hates science. But they back track and they are slick like you. No matter how many things they have proved are not god when people thought they were, yet you guys continue to move the goal post. God keeps getting smaller and smaller. God of the gaps is what its called.

I can go you one better... Look at the scientific study of atoms. An atom is the smallest form of matter, there are 237 quintillion atoms in a grain of sand. Each atom is comprised of a nucleus and the nucleus is orbited by electrons which define the atom. These electrons pop into and out of existence all the time, they can be at two places at the same time. This completely defies any concept of logic we understand in the physical world, yet at the molecular level, it is exactly what is happening with every atom in the universe, of which all matter consists. Can you explain that? I can't. Also... we can take atoms and collide them together, producing subatomic particles of all sorts. We've discovered tens of thousands of subatomic particles this way. It's like, each atom is a little surprise package of particles we've never seen before. Each of these particles has sometimes radically different properties enabling their atoms to do different things. For all intents and purposes, these are little tiny microscopic "miracles" happening on a regular basis to enable existence of everything we perceive as material in our universe. In other words, physical existence itself, is a spiritual miracle happening in real time.

so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.

Best answer Boss!!!

Did Native Americans Indians believe in God

Clap

Great... You've just proven my point. I have never claimed that Native Americans believed in the Christian God. It is their culture which is centered on spirit and not self. Unlike western culture where individuals can have introspective thought and consider various possibilities regarding the spiritual, these people are tied directly to spirit and everything revolves around that.

Well you have to realize that when it comes to debating someone who thinks like you, I'm an Agnostic Atheist. But when it comes to any organized religion that claims they not only know god exists they also have stories about when he visited, I am an atheist.

But I truly do admit that I don't know if there is a god. Do I think there is? No. Do I think there is a hell? No. But of course I don't know that either. I'm just pretty sure that the real god if there is one, doesn't care if we believe.

Anyways, I still think you, the indians and everyone else who believe in god do so because you've been programmed to believe and because you want to believe.

As for splitting atoms, I'm sure a scientist could explain all that to you. I sure can't.

Anyways, sorry I'm distracted. My 94 year old grandmother is dying and my aunt just called.

Dear sealybobo: Sorry I just found this. I thought you had replied to my post on the article about secularism (atheism, liberalism, lack of response to Islamic abuses) but I couldn't find it.

Not sure if you and your family are still going through grief
but belated sorry and sympathy for losing your grandmother.

thanks for taking the extra effort to keep up with msgs on here
and I hope that gives you some relief and focus while going through these things.

thank you for sharing and continuing to reach out to others,
and please take care!

 

[emilynghiem]

Dawsy's sig: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/ Carl Sagan.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or of acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." ~Carl Sagan


Oh my.

If you're saying that a person can be an atheist or agnostic and still be spiritual and not 'hate" God I totally agree. Sagan fits in this category. I imagine he would think it silly to hate Osiris or Zeus or Yahweh or whatever mythical being you could name.

Sagan quotes:

"If ‘fulfilled prophecy’ is your criterion, why do you not believe in materialistic science, which has an unparalleled record of fulfilled prophecy? Consider, for example, eclipses.”

Or;
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

Sagan thought religion was stupid, because it is. He was pantheist, which is ontologically indistinct from atheism.

Wrong. Pantheism is completely different from Atheism.

I've been participating in this thread for months now. Defending human spirituality, defending God, deflecting unwarranted criticisms of my "religious" views. I've had people here mistake me for a Christian repeatedly, my sister who is a devout Christian, says I am an Atheist. I am more of a pantheist than Atheist, but I simply call myself a spiritualist.

I believe in a Spiritual God, not out of faith or want to believe, but because I sense the presence of it around me in my daily life and communicate with it regularly. I'm not going to deny that in order to be popular, nor am I going to arbitrarily assign humanistic attributes to it in order to conform to some religion.

Yes where pantheism includes beliefs in God that is different from any practice of atheism that rejects and excludes.

I think the issue is whether people take a nontheistic approach or theistic.
Neither of those has to be a problem just because they are different.

What causes conflict is unequal exclusion or rejection instead of equal inclusion.
Just becuse our views are different doesn't mean we have to reject the views of other people.

Remove the emotionalism from the equation, and we can get along despite our differences.
Nothing wrong with religion, just the collective bullying and abuse which happens with politics also.

That behavior is what causes problems, not the religion per se. again if you
remove the emotionalism, religions become neutral just like languages, and don't have
to carry stigmas or grudges for or against other views. that part is coming from people
being divided from each other by groups, similar to how racism is not caused by race but by people.

there is another factor going on besides just the religion that causes the religious abuses.

 

[sealybobo]

Funny if you look at my 1970's encyclopedia it says 98% of the people of Greece were Greek Orthodox. First, do you really believe all 98% were really "christians" and believed in god? Then you are gullible. I know many Greek Americans who call themselves Greek Orthodox because they were born into it, but like me and you they don't really believe all the stories.

The Greeks are basically the founders of western culture. We are products of that culture. The Greek philosophers brought the attribute of introspection, questioning of who we are and what we believe, what happens next. It is through that philosophy we have this self-centered belief system which enables us to consider various possibilities regarding Gods and Religions. Native Americans did not have that cultural underpinning. This point seems to be flying comfortably over your head as well as Moonbat's. We're talking about two completely different ways of thinking, schools of thought. Native Americans did not have introspection of self, things didn't revolve around the individual.

As for the indians. If penalty was death, how can you know if anyone really believes or are they all just going along not to be tortured and killed by savage indians? I'm sure some didn't really believe. I have to believe as savage and barbaric as they were they had to have some phylosophers in the bunch. I'm sure even some indians themselves feared savage indians from other tribes, or is that just stuff I saw in movies? Looked like they would concur other tribes, kill the men and take their women. They'd raise their babies though. They were at least kind to children.

I did not say "the penalty was death" ...there was no penalty, it was not an issue. I explained how such an instance would have been handled in the event someone was kicked in the head by a horse or born without a normal brain, and didn't adhere to the Great Spirit. It wasn't something held over their heads... you're gonna 'believe' or we're gonna kill you! Again, you are thinking in western culture terms here and failing to grasp they had a different culture. From their perspective, this was not a "belief" but a truth that was unquestionable.

It is noted that you continue to disrespect these people by calling them "indians" when you've been told that is highly offensive. Apparently, your bigotry is blind and oblivious. As for savagery, they were no more savage than the Nordics or Mongolians. Yes, much of what you believe is due to myths spread by Hollywood.



You wouldn't survive one day with any Native American tribe. You'd start spewing your anti-God nonsense and you'd be history. The scant few white men who ever interacted with Native Americans had to be totally respectful of their spirituality. Somehow, I don't see your bigoted ass being able to pull that off. The Puritans, on the other hand, were able to cohabitate with them because they developed a mutual respect through spirit. For nearly a century, there was no problem between Native Americans and early settlers. Of course, there were some tribes who weren't hospitable, and didn't cotton to white men encroaching on their lands, but all-in-all, the early settlers had a generally good relationship with the Native Americans. We could not have ever colonized otherwise.



I've not tried to prove God. I've also not stated that anything isn't real. You're a hypocrite. You claim the best and most rational position is "we don't know" but then you turn around and argue as if you DO know. This is typical of most bigots, they can't support their opinions but they believe their opinions are empirical and anyone who challenges them are wrong.



If you believe in Karma as you claimed you did several times, and are again tepidly claiming you do... then you are not an atheist or agnostic. You are spiritual, whether you realize it or not. You do believe in something greater than self, Karma. Now it seems to me, the only real difference between you and someone who believes in God is semantics and terminology.

And I do understand there is the non physical. Have you ever taken a tuning rod and hit it and the guy across the room's rod starts making noise? Telepathic stuff. There is so much you and I don't know. I watch these shows. They aren't anti religion but they are scientific shows and just the facts and information they are giving always seems to innocently go against religion. Thats when I understand why religion hates science. But they back track and they are slick like you. No matter how many things they have proved are not god when people thought they were, yet you guys continue to move the goal post. God keeps getting smaller and smaller. God of the gaps is what its called.

I can go you one better... Look at the scientific study of atoms. An atom is the smallest form of matter, there are 237 quintillion atoms in a grain of sand. Each atom is comprised of a nucleus and the nucleus is orbited by electrons which define the atom. These electrons pop into and out of existence all the time, they can be at two places at the same time. This completely defies any concept of logic we understand in the physical world, yet at the molecular level, it is exactly what is happening with every atom in the universe, of which all matter consists. Can you explain that? I can't. Also... we can take atoms and collide them together, producing subatomic particles of all sorts. We've discovered tens of thousands of subatomic particles this way. It's like, each atom is a little surprise package of particles we've never seen before. Each of these particles has sometimes radically different properties enabling their atoms to do different things. For all intents and purposes, these are little tiny microscopic "miracles" happening on a regular basis to enable existence of everything we perceive as material in our universe. In other words, physical existence itself, is a spiritual miracle happening in real time.

so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.

Best answer Boss!!!

Did Native Americans Indians believe in God

Clap

Great... You've just proven my point. I have never claimed that Native Americans believed in the Christian God. It is their culture which is centered on spirit and not self. Unlike western culture where individuals can have introspective thought and consider various possibilities regarding the spiritual, these people are tied directly to spirit and everything revolves around that.

Well you have to realize that when it comes to debating someone who thinks like you, I'm an Agnostic Atheist. But when it comes to any organized religion that claims they not only know god exists they also have stories about when he visited, I am an atheist.

But I truly do admit that I don't know if there is a god. Do I think there is? No. Do I think there is a hell? No. But of course I don't know that either. I'm just pretty sure that the real god if there is one, doesn't care if we believe.

Anyways, I still think you, the indians and everyone else who believe in god do so because you've been programmed to believe and because you want to believe.

As for splitting atoms, I'm sure a scientist could explain all that to you. I sure can't.

Anyways, sorry I'm distracted. My 94 year old grandmother is dying and my aunt just called.

Dear sealybobo: Sorry I just found this. I thought you had replied to my post on the article about secularism (atheism, liberalism, lack of response to Islamic abuses) but I couldn't find it.

Not sure if you and your family are still going through grief
but belated sorry and sympathy for losing your grandmother.

thanks for taking the extra effort to keep up with msgs on here
and I hope that gives you some relief and focus while going through these things.

thank you for sharing and continuing to reach out to others,
and please take care!

I love you sometimes. Then sometimes I read things that make me think you lean right, but still you are a classy sweet kind nice woman for sure. Sorry if I have ever offended you. If I did and I'm sure I did you took it like a champ. Just ignored any insults and moved on. I wish I were able to be more like you.

Notice how I believe that even though I've never actually met you before? You could be a big huge mean horrible man for all I know. But based on the evidence I've seen, without actually knowing 100%, you seem like a wonderful woman.

I just see no evidence for a god or creator. None that don't come without some fatal flaw. Nor do I see the need for one.

No proof, no need.

God is the universe/love/laws of physics.
We already have names for these things. Redefining something as ‘god’ tells us nothing. To use the word ‘god’ implies a host of other attributes and if you don’t intend to apply those attributes, using the word is intentionally misleading.

 

[sealybobo]

Dawsy's sig: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/ Carl Sagan.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or of acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." ~Carl Sagan


Oh my.

If you're saying that a person can be an atheist or agnostic and still be spiritual and not 'hate" God I totally agree. Sagan fits in this category. I imagine he would think it silly to hate Osiris or Zeus or Yahweh or whatever mythical being you could name.

Sagan quotes:

"If ‘fulfilled prophecy’ is your criterion, why do you not believe in materialistic science, which has an unparalleled record of fulfilled prophecy? Consider, for example, eclipses.”

Or;
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

Sagan thought religion was stupid, because it is. He was pantheist, which is ontologically indistinct from atheism.

Wrong. Pantheism is completely different from Atheism.

I've been participating in this thread for months now. Defending human spirituality, defending God, deflecting unwarranted criticisms of my "religious" views. I've had people here mistake me for a Christian repeatedly, my sister who is a devout Christian, says I am an Atheist. I am more of a pantheist than Atheist, but I simply call myself a spiritualist.

I believe in a Spiritual God, not out of faith or want to believe, but because I sense the presence of it around me in my daily life and communicate with it regularly. I'm not going to deny that in order to be popular, nor am I going to arbitrarily assign humanistic attributes to it in order to conform to some religion.

Yes where pantheism includes beliefs in God that is different from any practice of atheism that rejects and excludes.

I think the issue is whether people take a nontheistic approach or theistic.
Neither of those has to be a problem just because they are different.

What causes conflict is unequal exclusion or rejection instead of equal inclusion.
Just becuse our views are different doesn't mean we have to reject the views of other people.

Remove the emotionalism from the equation, and we can get along despite our differences.
Nothing wrong with religion, just the collective bullying and abuse which happens with politics also.

That behavior is what causes problems, not the religion per se. again if you
remove the emotionalism, religions become neutral just like languages, and don't have
to carry stigmas or grudges for or against other views. that part is coming from people
being divided from each other by groups, similar to how racism is not caused by race but by people.

there is another factor going on besides just the religion that causes the religious abuses.

You're basically saying religion is like a gun. It's not the gun it's the person holding the gun you gotta worry about.

Here is why you are wrong when you think...

1. God is the source of morality.
   Morality is a cultural concept with a basis in evolutionary psychology and game theory. Species whose members were predisposed to cooperate were more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Reciprocacy, altruism and other so-called ‘moral’ characteristics are evident in many species. The neurochemical thought to regulate morality and empathy is oxytocin.
   
   Religious texts are simply part of many early attempts to codify moral precepts. Secular law, flexible with the shifting moral zeitgeist, has long since superseded religion as a source of moral directives for the majority of developed societies. Secular ethics offers a number of competing moral frameworks which do not derive from a purported supernatural source.
   
   The god character of the Bible is a misogynistic tyrant that condones and even orders the practice of slavery, rape of women and murder of children. The moment you disagree with a single instruction of the Bible, such as the command to kill any bride who is not a virgin or any child who disrespects their parents, then you acknowledge that there exists a superior standard by which to judge moral action and thus no need to rely on an ancient, primitive and barbaric fantasy.
   
   "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
   Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
   Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
   Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus
   

 

[PostmodernProph]

Dawsy's sig: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/ Carl Sagan.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or of acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." ~Carl Sagan


Oh my.

If you're saying that a person can be an atheist or agnostic and still be spiritual and not 'hate" God I totally agree. Sagan fits in this category. I imagine he would think it silly to hate Osiris or Zeus or Yahweh or whatever mythical being you could name.

Sagan quotes:

"If ‘fulfilled prophecy’ is your criterion, why do you not believe in materialistic science, which has an unparalleled record of fulfilled prophecy? Consider, for example, eclipses.”

Or;
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

Sagan thought religion was stupid, because it is. He was pantheist, which is ontologically indistinct from atheism.

Wrong. Pantheism is completely different from Atheism.

it may in fact be its direct opposite......"there is no god" versus "everything is a god"......

 

[emilynghiem]

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or of acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." ~Carl Sagan


Oh my.

If you're saying that a person can be an atheist or agnostic and still be spiritual and not 'hate" God I totally agree. Sagan fits in this category. I imagine he would think it silly to hate Osiris or Zeus or Yahweh or whatever mythical being you could name.

Sagan quotes:

"If ‘fulfilled prophecy’ is your criterion, why do you not believe in materialistic science, which has an unparalleled record of fulfilled prophecy? Consider, for example, eclipses.”

Or;
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

Sagan thought religion was stupid, because it is. He was pantheist, which is ontologically indistinct from atheism.

Wrong. Pantheism is completely different from Atheism.

I've been participating in this thread for months now. Defending human spirituality, defending God, deflecting unwarranted criticisms of my "religious" views. I've had people here mistake me for a Christian repeatedly, my sister who is a devout Christian, says I am an Atheist. I am more of a pantheist than Atheist, but I simply call myself a spiritualist.

I believe in a Spiritual God, not out of faith or want to believe, but because I sense the presence of it around me in my daily life and communicate with it regularly. I'm not going to deny that in order to be popular, nor am I going to arbitrarily assign humanistic attributes to it in order to conform to some religion.

Yes where pantheism includes beliefs in God that is different from any practice of atheism that rejects and excludes.

I think the issue is whether people take a nontheistic approach or theistic.
Neither of those has to be a problem just because they are different.

What causes conflict is unequal exclusion or rejection instead of equal inclusion.
Just becuse our views are different doesn't mean we have to reject the views of other people.

Remove the emotionalism from the equation, and we can get along despite our differences.
Nothing wrong with religion, just the collective bullying and abuse which happens with politics also.

That behavior is what causes problems, not the religion per se. again if you
remove the emotionalism, religions become neutral just like languages, and don't have
to carry stigmas or grudges for or against other views. that part is coming from people
being divided from each other by groups, similar to how racism is not caused by race but by people.

there is another factor going on besides just the religion that causes the religious abuses.

You're basically saying religion is like a gun. It's not the gun it's the person holding the gun you gotta worry about.

Here is why you are wrong when you think...

1. God is the source of morality.
   Morality is a cultural concept with a basis in evolutionary psychology and game theory. Species whose members were predisposed to cooperate were more likely to survive and pass on their genes. Reciprocacy, altruism and other so-called ‘moral’ characteristics are evident in many species. The neurochemical thought to regulate morality and empathy is oxytocin.
   
   Religious texts are simply part of many early attempts to codify moral precepts. Secular law, flexible with the shifting moral zeitgeist, has long since superseded religion as a source of moral directives for the majority of developed societies. Secular ethics offers a number of competing moral frameworks which do not derive from a purported supernatural source.
   
   The god character of the Bible is a misogynistic tyrant that condones and even orders the practice of slavery, rape of women and murder of children. The moment you disagree with a single instruction of the Bible, such as the command to kill any bride who is not a virgin or any child who disrespects their parents, then you acknowledge that there exists a superior standard by which to judge moral action and thus no need to rely on an ancient, primitive and barbaric fantasy.
   
   "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
   Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
   Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
   Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus

1. No, you cannot simply say that God is the source of morality because this doesn't explain why a Jihadist kills in the name of God but a Quaker will stand for abolition of slavery through peaceful legal and civil reforms.

2. I hold that the difference between people who abuse power or influence, whether religious or political, is based on
* fear versus love
* division and exclusion vs unity and inclusion
* scarcity mentality of competing with others vs abundance mentality of serving others
* unforgiveness and projecting blame punishment judgment and rejection on others vs. Forgiveness and seeking mutual coorection and restitution to restore good faith relations and health to all
* ill will and retribution vs. Good will and benefits to others

If you look at all cases of crime abuse corruption violence damages fraud misrepresentation bullying coercion etc,
You will find ill will fear and unforgiven conflicts as the common factor.

Not faith in God as explaining the bad.

 

[emilynghiem]

Funny if you look at my 1970's encyclopedia it says 98% of the people of Greece were Greek Orthodox. First, do you really believe all 98% were really "christians" and believed in god? Then you are gullible. I know many Greek Americans who call themselves Greek Orthodox because they were born into it, but like me and you they don't really believe all the stories.

The Greeks are basically the founders of western culture. We are products of that culture. The Greek philosophers brought the attribute of introspection, questioning of who we are and what we believe, what happens next. It is through that philosophy we have this self-centered belief system which enables us to consider various possibilities regarding Gods and Religions. Native Americans did not have that cultural underpinning. This point seems to be flying comfortably over your head as well as Moonbat's. We're talking about two completely different ways of thinking, schools of thought. Native Americans did not have introspection of self, things didn't revolve around the individual.

As for the indians. If penalty was death, how can you know if anyone really believes or are they all just going along not to be tortured and killed by savage indians? I'm sure some didn't really believe. I have to believe as savage and barbaric as they were they had to have some phylosophers in the bunch. I'm sure even some indians themselves feared savage indians from other tribes, or is that just stuff I saw in movies? Looked like they would concur other tribes, kill the men and take their women. They'd raise their babies though. They were at least kind to children.

I did not say "the penalty was death" ...there was no penalty, it was not an issue. I explained how such an instance would have been handled in the event someone was kicked in the head by a horse or born without a normal brain, and didn't adhere to the Great Spirit. It wasn't something held over their heads... you're gonna 'believe' or we're gonna kill you! Again, you are thinking in western culture terms here and failing to grasp they had a different culture. From their perspective, this was not a "belief" but a truth that was unquestionable.

It is noted that you continue to disrespect these people by calling them "indians" when you've been told that is highly offensive. Apparently, your bigotry is blind and oblivious. As for savagery, they were no more savage than the Nordics or Mongolians. Yes, much of what you believe is due to myths spread by Hollywood.



You wouldn't survive one day with any Native American tribe. You'd start spewing your anti-God nonsense and you'd be history. The scant few white men who ever interacted with Native Americans had to be totally respectful of their spirituality. Somehow, I don't see your bigoted ass being able to pull that off. The Puritans, on the other hand, were able to cohabitate with them because they developed a mutual respect through spirit. For nearly a century, there was no problem between Native Americans and early settlers. Of course, there were some tribes who weren't hospitable, and didn't cotton to white men encroaching on their lands, but all-in-all, the early settlers had a generally good relationship with the Native Americans. We could not have ever colonized otherwise.



I've not tried to prove God. I've also not stated that anything isn't real. You're a hypocrite. You claim the best and most rational position is "we don't know" but then you turn around and argue as if you DO know. This is typical of most bigots, they can't support their opinions but they believe their opinions are empirical and anyone who challenges them are wrong.



If you believe in Karma as you claimed you did several times, and are again tepidly claiming you do... then you are not an atheist or agnostic. You are spiritual, whether you realize it or not. You do believe in something greater than self, Karma. Now it seems to me, the only real difference between you and someone who believes in God is semantics and terminology.

And I do understand there is the non physical. Have you ever taken a tuning rod and hit it and the guy across the room's rod starts making noise? Telepathic stuff. There is so much you and I don't know. I watch these shows. They aren't anti religion but they are scientific shows and just the facts and information they are giving always seems to innocently go against religion. Thats when I understand why religion hates science. But they back track and they are slick like you. No matter how many things they have proved are not god when people thought they were, yet you guys continue to move the goal post. God keeps getting smaller and smaller. God of the gaps is what its called.

I can go you one better... Look at the scientific study of atoms. An atom is the smallest form of matter, there are 237 quintillion atoms in a grain of sand. Each atom is comprised of a nucleus and the nucleus is orbited by electrons which define the atom. These electrons pop into and out of existence all the time, they can be at two places at the same time. This completely defies any concept of logic we understand in the physical world, yet at the molecular level, it is exactly what is happening with every atom in the universe, of which all matter consists. Can you explain that? I can't. Also... we can take atoms and collide them together, producing subatomic particles of all sorts. We've discovered tens of thousands of subatomic particles this way. It's like, each atom is a little surprise package of particles we've never seen before. Each of these particles has sometimes radically different properties enabling their atoms to do different things. For all intents and purposes, these are little tiny microscopic "miracles" happening on a regular basis to enable existence of everything we perceive as material in our universe. In other words, physical existence itself, is a spiritual miracle happening in real time.

so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.

Best answer Boss!!!

Did Native Americans Indians believe in God

Clap

Great... You've just proven my point. I have never claimed that Native Americans believed in the Christian God. It is their culture which is centered on spirit and not self. Unlike western culture where individuals can have introspective thought and consider various possibilities regarding the spiritual, these people are tied directly to spirit and everything revolves around that.

Well you have to realize that when it comes to debating someone who thinks like you, I'm an Agnostic Atheist. But when it comes to any organized religion that claims they not only know god exists they also have stories about when he visited, I am an atheist.

But I truly do admit that I don't know if there is a god. Do I think there is? No. Do I think there is a hell? No. But of course I don't know that either. I'm just pretty sure that the real god if there is one, doesn't care if we believe.

Anyways, I still think you, the indians and everyone else who believe in god do so because you've been programmed to believe and because you want to believe.

As for splitting atoms, I'm sure a scientist could explain all that to you. I sure can't.

Anyways, sorry I'm distracted. My 94 year old grandmother is dying and my aunt just called.

Dear sealybobo: Sorry I just found this. I thought you had replied to my post on the article about secularism (atheism, liberalism, lack of response to Islamic abuses) but I couldn't find it.

Not sure if you and your family are still going through grief
but belated sorry and sympathy for losing your grandmother.

thanks for taking the extra effort to keep up with msgs on here
and I hope that gives you some relief and focus while going through these things.

thank you for sharing and continuing to reach out to others,
and please take care!

I love you sometimes. Then sometimes I read things that make me think you lean right, but still you are a classy sweet kind nice woman for sure. Sorry if I have ever offended you. If I did and I'm sure I did you took it like a champ. Just ignored any insults and moved on. I wish I were able to be more like you.

Notice how I believe that even though I've never actually met you before? You could be a big huge mean horrible man for all I know. But based on the evidence I've seen, without actually knowing 100%, you seem like a wonderful woman.

I just see no evidence for a god or creator. None that don't come without some fatal flaw. Nor do I see the need for one.

No proof, no need.

God is the universe/love/laws of physics.
We already have names for these things. Redefining something as ‘god’ tells us nothing. To use the word ‘god’ implies a host of other attributes and if you don’t intend to apply those attributes, using the word is intentionally misleading.

Funny if you look at my 1970's encyclopedia it says 98% of the people of Greece were Greek Orthodox. First, do you really believe all 98% were really "christians" and believed in god? Then you are gullible. I know many Greek Americans who call themselves Greek Orthodox because they were born into it, but like me and you they don't really believe all the stories.

The Greeks are basically the founders of western culture. We are products of that culture. The Greek philosophers brought the attribute of introspection, questioning of who we are and what we believe, what happens next. It is through that philosophy we have this self-centered belief system which enables us to consider various possibilities regarding Gods and Religions. Native Americans did not have that cultural underpinning. This point seems to be flying comfortably over your head as well as Moonbat's. We're talking about two completely different ways of thinking, schools of thought. Native Americans did not have introspection of self, things didn't revolve around the individual.

As for the indians. If penalty was death, how can you know if anyone really believes or are they all just going along not to be tortured and killed by savage indians? I'm sure some didn't really believe. I have to believe as savage and barbaric as they were they had to have some phylosophers in the bunch. I'm sure even some indians themselves feared savage indians from other tribes, or is that just stuff I saw in movies? Looked like they would concur other tribes, kill the men and take their women. They'd raise their babies though. They were at least kind to children.

I did not say "the penalty was death" ...there was no penalty, it was not an issue. I explained how such an instance would have been handled in the event someone was kicked in the head by a horse or born without a normal brain, and didn't adhere to the Great Spirit. It wasn't something held over their heads... you're gonna 'believe' or we're gonna kill you! Again, you are thinking in western culture terms here and failing to grasp they had a different culture. From their perspective, this was not a "belief" but a truth that was unquestionable.

It is noted that you continue to disrespect these people by calling them "indians" when you've been told that is highly offensive. Apparently, your bigotry is blind and oblivious. As for savagery, they were no more savage than the Nordics or Mongolians. Yes, much of what you believe is due to myths spread by Hollywood.



You wouldn't survive one day with any Native American tribe. You'd start spewing your anti-God nonsense and you'd be history. The scant few white men who ever interacted with Native Americans had to be totally respectful of their spirituality. Somehow, I don't see your bigoted ass being able to pull that off. The Puritans, on the other hand, were able to cohabitate with them because they developed a mutual respect through spirit. For nearly a century, there was no problem between Native Americans and early settlers. Of course, there were some tribes who weren't hospitable, and didn't cotton to white men encroaching on their lands, but all-in-all, the early settlers had a generally good relationship with the Native Americans. We could not have ever colonized otherwise.



I've not tried to prove God. I've also not stated that anything isn't real. You're a hypocrite. You claim the best and most rational position is "we don't know" but then you turn around and argue as if you DO know. This is typical of most bigots, they can't support their opinions but they believe their opinions are empirical and anyone who challenges them are wrong.



If you believe in Karma as you claimed you did several times, and are again tepidly claiming you do... then you are not an atheist or agnostic. You are spiritual, whether you realize it or not. You do believe in something greater than self, Karma. Now it seems to me, the only real difference between you and someone who believes in God is semantics and terminology.

And I do understand there is the non physical. Have you ever taken a tuning rod and hit it and the guy across the room's rod starts making noise? Telepathic stuff. There is so much you and I don't know. I watch these shows. They aren't anti religion but they are scientific shows and just the facts and information they are giving always seems to innocently go against religion. Thats when I understand why religion hates science. But they back track and they are slick like you. No matter how many things they have proved are not god when people thought they were, yet you guys continue to move the goal post. God keeps getting smaller and smaller. God of the gaps is what its called.

I can go you one better... Look at the scientific study of atoms. An atom is the smallest form of matter, there are 237 quintillion atoms in a grain of sand. Each atom is comprised of a nucleus and the nucleus is orbited by electrons which define the atom. These electrons pop into and out of existence all the time, they can be at two places at the same time. This completely defies any concept of logic we understand in the physical world, yet at the molecular level, it is exactly what is happening with every atom in the universe, of which all matter consists. Can you explain that? I can't. Also... we can take atoms and collide them together, producing subatomic particles of all sorts. We've discovered tens of thousands of subatomic particles this way. It's like, each atom is a little surprise package of particles we've never seen before. Each of these particles has sometimes radically different properties enabling their atoms to do different things. For all intents and purposes, these are little tiny microscopic "miracles" happening on a regular basis to enable existence of everything we perceive as material in our universe. In other words, physical existence itself, is a spiritual miracle happening in real time.

so i guess i am the first native to answer this but i am sure i won't be the last. (we are still alive btw)

we do not worship as you know it. we give thanks. we believe the world and everything in it was created. after that fact there is NOTHING in common with christianity or any other religion. each nation has its own beliefs traditionally.

no we don't have gods. we don't even have one god. we acknowledge the spirit world. and past what i have said, there is nothing else i wish to share about my beliefs except that they are meant for me and the other people of my nation. they are not even for other natives. they have their own traditions.

we do not believe one belief is better than another..just better for us as a people.

you may have to rethink your whole idea that if it is good it must have something to do with your god. my experience is christianity brought nothing to us but death and suffering even into the 21st century. we live our beliefs. it is not lip service. you can see WHAT we believe by what we DO.

Best answer Boss!!!

Did Native Americans Indians believe in God

Clap

Great... You've just proven my point. I have never claimed that Native Americans believed in the Christian God. It is their culture which is centered on spirit and not self. Unlike western culture where individuals can have introspective thought and consider various possibilities regarding the spiritual, these people are tied directly to spirit and everything revolves around that.

Well you have to realize that when it comes to debating someone who thinks like you, I'm an Agnostic Atheist. But when it comes to any organized religion that claims they not only know god exists they also have stories about when he visited, I am an atheist.

But I truly do admit that I don't know if there is a god. Do I think there is? No. Do I think there is a hell? No. But of course I don't know that either. I'm just pretty sure that the real god if there is one, doesn't care if we believe.

Anyways, I still think you, the indians and everyone else who believe in god do so because you've been programmed to believe and because you want to believe.

As for splitting atoms, I'm sure a scientist could explain all that to you. I sure can't.

Anyways, sorry I'm distracted. My 94 year old grandmother is dying and my aunt just called.

Dear sealybobo: Sorry I just found this. I thought you had replied to my post on the article about secularism (atheism, liberalism, lack of response to Islamic abuses) but I couldn't find it.

Not sure if you and your family are still going through grief
but belated sorry and sympathy for losing your grandmother.

thanks for taking the extra effort to keep up with msgs on here
and I hope that gives you some relief and focus while going through these things.

thank you for sharing and continuing to reach out to others,
and please take care!

I love you sometimes. Then sometimes I read things that make me think you lean right, but still you are a classy sweet kind nice woman for sure. Sorry if I have ever offended you. If I did and I'm sure I did you took it like a champ. Just ignored any insults and moved on. I wish I were able to be more like you.

Notice how I believe that even though I've never actually met you before? You could be a big huge mean horrible man for all I know. But based on the evidence I've seen, without actually knowing 100%, you seem like a wonderful woman.

I just see no evidence for a god or creator. None that don't come without some fatal flaw. Nor do I see the need for one.

No proof, no need.

God is the universe/love/laws of physics.
We already have names for these things. Redefining something as ‘god’ tells us nothing. To use the word ‘god’ implies a host of other attributes and if you don’t intend to apply those attributes, using the word is intentionally misleading.

2. RE: using the word God:
sure, as long as we agree that those things are what we mean good about God, then we can agree what we are talking about. We don't have to use words that don't mean the same to people, which causes unneeded conflict.

1. regarding your personal message, wow, I am very touched and encouraged by your words. this tells me that despite differences online, the stronger connection is coming through that is positive and loving, so I am encouraged by this.

Thank you sealybobo that is very sweet and kind.

I think it is natural to feel love and connection with others, as the default setting on humanity.
And it is all this other crap that has been programmed on top, for our own protection, to learn how to assess and judge.

I may get frustrated, with trying to discuss complex subtle connotations and interpretations online with sensitive subjects of religion and politics, but generally do not get offended.

If you totally contradict yourself, I will let you know, and there will be "no question" if I have an issue.
I will talk about it until we work it out and I will consider it half my responsibility, and my failure if I cannot explain it well enough to resolve it, I consider it my fault.
If something is the truth, it should be clear by the person's own words and terms, or else I am not communicating clearly.

So no you have not offended me, and I have pointed out where I felt there was a contradiction which is not something to blame anyone for;
but just like math, the conflict needs to be uncovered and fixed so we are on the same page with consistent points and aren't talking past each other.

With you, it is probably terminology, that you happen to associate negative things with the same terms I see as neutral or implying positive things.
That is not your fault if you make these associations, everyone does that because of past experiences.

But it does show me where there is emotional bias from past issues unresolved or unforgiven.
So I hope to locate where such biases come from and neutralize the negative associations.
Being neutral still allows us to discuss the BAD attributes tied to God, Jesus, religion, Bible, Christianity etc.
So it is not like denying these things have been abused, whichof course history speaks to as you point out.
But it is not feasible to emotionally attach negative biases to these words
and expect to communicate with people who don't have that.
Either we need to agree on neutral terms or undo some of the negative conditioning.
Anyway I hope that sharing forgiveness towards these ills WILL remove that negative spin
and allow greater connection on teh positive principles we share in common.
I believe that is the default, the natural love that connects people.
Of course you have this, and thank you for sharing it in such kind words of encouragement.
Tome that connection is what it means to feel God's love,
you do not know me yet you have faith in that positive love.
So forgiveness allows you to feel that when there is all this negative things you could have focused on instead.
but you feel the positive. that is what it means to overcome ill with love.
that is the meaning and message in Christianity, so you have this naturally by Conscience. This is very reassuring and I am grateful and humbled.

Thank you sealybobo for sharing such compassionate thoughts and concerns.
Hugs to you from Houston
and may these same positive connections catch on
and multiply!

Yours truly,
Love, Emily

 

[sealybobo]

Now you are just lying. To ask if I am "BACK" on crack is to insult me as a drug addict, as if the logical genius you pretend to be wouldn't know.

Again, when you come up with some convoluted load of horse shit to try and spin something around and make an impossible point, you should expect people to think you are back on the crack again. I didn't say you were a drug addict, I don't know you. I hope you're not and I encourage you to not do crack before you post.

Back to the point... Most humans believe in something greater than self and always have. Most religious people also believe in something greater than self. AND... even a majority of Atheist people admit that it's possible something greater than self can exist. In fact, only about 5% of the human species are Nihilistic and believe in nothing.

atheism – which is typically seen as a modern phenomenon – was not just common in ancient Greece and pre-Christian Rome, but probably flourished more in those societies than in most civilizations since.

As a result, the study challenges two assumptions that prop up current debates between atheists and believers: Firstly, the idea that atheism is a modern point of view, and second, the idea of “religious universalism” – that humans are naturally predisposed, or “wired”, to believe in gods.

People in the ancient world did not always believe in the gods, a new study suggests – casting doubt on the idea that religious belief is a “default setting” for humans.

Disbelieve it or not, ancient history suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as religion

 

[Montrovant]

Now you are just lying. To ask if I am "BACK" on crack is to insult me as a drug addict, as if the logical genius you pretend to be wouldn't know.

Again, when you come up with some convoluted load of horse shit to try and spin something around and make an impossible point, you should expect people to think you are back on the crack again. I didn't say you were a drug addict, I don't know you. I hope you're not and I encourage you to not do crack before you post.

Back to the point... Most humans believe in something greater than self and always have. Most religious people also believe in something greater than self. AND... even a majority of Atheist people admit that it's possible something greater than self can exist. In fact, only about 5% of the human species are Nihilistic and believe in nothing.

atheism – which is typically seen as a modern phenomenon – was not just common in ancient Greece and pre-Christian Rome, but probably flourished more in those societies than in most civilizations since.

As a result, the study challenges two assumptions that prop up current debates between atheists and believers: Firstly, the idea that atheism is a modern point of view, and second, the idea of “religious universalism” – that humans are naturally predisposed, or “wired”, to believe in gods.

People in the ancient world did not always believe in the gods, a new study suggests – casting doubt on the idea that religious belief is a “default setting” for humans.

Disbelieve it or not, ancient history suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as religion

It seems reasonable to me that there have always been people who disbelieved the religious or spiritual beliefs of their cultures. However, belief may still be something people are naturally predisposed to consider the preponderance of professed believers, even if there is a small minority of those who do not believe.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It seems reasonable to me that there have always been people who disbelieved the religious or spiritual beliefs of their cultures. However, belief may still be something people are naturally predisposed to consider the preponderance of professed believers, even if there is a small minority of those who do not believe.

But through most of human history that disbelief was illegal and the idiots kept it to themselves.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I think that god lost a lot of his mojo when he stopped demanding that people kill animals as sacrifices. People began to lose respect.

 

[Mudda]

We see them here everyday, interjecting their hate-filled insultuous attacks on the religious, mocking and ridiculing to a bizarre extreme, anything and everything to do with God. They largely profess to be "Atheists" although some, as if to denote a hint of reluctance to go quite that far, will claim agnosticism instead. Best play it safe if we're dealing with a super-force who can send you to the pits of hell for all eternity, eh? But they have a dirty little secret they don't want any of us to know. They are not, in fact, Atheists or agnostic.

True Atheists have absolutely no inclination to attack people who profess religious belief. If anything, they are amused by the "believers" and find them a bit of a novelty. Much like an adult who encounters a child believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny. There is no harm to the adult in such beliefs, the adult knows these are not real entities, and it's simply an amusement to them. In fact, they may even 'play along' with the idea, just in the name of fun. What does it hurt? No, you don't see hoards of smart-assed punks at the mall where Santa visits, ridiculing and belittling the people standing in line to see him. Message boards aren't clogged up with degenerate misfits decrying the belief of a giant bunny who brings candy and hides eggs, because it doesn't really matter to anyone that some people entertain this notion.

Oh but it's because those are just kids, Boss! Well okay, let's take the thousands of nutty conspiracy theories out there. Do you see any evidence of people devoting every waking hour to go on message boards and forums to "inform" these people how they are crazy and misinformed? Nope. It doesn't matter. As long as you know something is too far-fetched to be true, you could care less what other people think. If someone wants to think Elvis is still alive on some remote island, what difference does that make to me? I might be inclined to casually comment that I don't believe it, but I am certainly not devoting the bulk of my energy and time online to categorically try and refute any inkling of thought pertaining to such a theory. And I am certainly not going to the extreme efforts to ridicule and insult the nuts who believe such theories. It's just not that important to me, nor to anyone else for that matter.

But with the God-haters and God, things are quite different. Although they claim to be Atheists or agnostics, my suspicion is they are anything but. It appears they are devout believers in God, who fully understand the power of God and how much God influences others who believe in Him. To put it in simple terms, they fear God. They are afraid if they do not stand up and fight God with all their might, God may become a bigger influence and that wouldn't be good for them, for whatever reason.

Most of the time, these reasons center around that person's life choices. They have totally abandoned the God they very much believe in, so they can be unaccountable for their moral behaviors. As long as there is "no god" to judge them, they can do whatever they please and there are no consequences. It's important that we understand, any time someone is doing something immoral or wrong, they had rather have company. This provides a codependency, a way they can somehow justify their behavior to themselves.

So this is why the God-haters persist on message boards and forums, to 'recruit' people over to their way of thinking. They believe they can ridicule and cajole people into being ashamed of their beliefs and those people will ultimately join their faction. If nothing else, it is 'therapeutic' for them to vent their anger and vitriol toward the God they know is real, and they are almost certain to meet up with others who are doing the same thing.

Bossy, when I turn out a light, and I turning off your god of electricity? What about when a bulb burns out, is he frustrated?

 

[Boss]

Bossy, when I turn out a light, and I turning off your god of electricity? What about when a bulb burns out, is he frustrated?

Well no, when a bulb burns out it's because the filament deteriorated and could no longer conduct the flow of electricity to produce illumination. I don't believe in a God who becomes frustrated.... that's counter-intuitive to an omnipotent and omniscient force. If you stick your finger in a light socket and get shocked, it's not because electricity intends to punish you for doing wrong. If you strap someone to a chair and attach electrodes to them in order to put them to death, the electricity is not going to become angry at you for doing something wicked with it. Electricity is a force that doesn't have humanistic attributes... it doesn't love or hate... it doesn't get angry or spiteful... it doesn't need to. It's simply there to use for your benefit if you so desire... or you can be like the Amish and Mennonites and chose to not use it for your benefit... you have free will.

The power of God is much the same way, it is there for you to use and some people may even use it to perpetrate evil on humanity... such is the case with religious zealots like radical Islam. Organized religions are merely human constructs devised to utilize our spiritual connections. The fact they have existed for a very long time is merely evidence that our spiritual connections are powerful and not imaginary. If this spiritual connection were a figment of imagination, providing no useful benefit to the species, we would have discarded the attribute through the course of evolution according to Darwin himself.

Now some will argue, how can we "believe" in something we can't physically prove... but we believe things we cannot prove all the time. For instance, the electrons revolving around the nucleus of an atom... we don't know where they are at any given point in time. They can exist in two places at the same time or exist in no place at any time. Our most fundamental elements of nature refuse to allow us to measure them. (Uncertainty Principle) This defies physics as we know it but we have to believe it because that's what we observe. Light behaves as waves whenever we aren't observing it and when we observe it, it behaves like particles.... again, this seems to defy physics but we must believe it because it's what we've observed. We can't explain why this is... it just is. And this is often what we've discovered in science.

 

[sealybobo]

We see them here everyday, interjecting their hate-filled insultuous attacks on the religious, mocking and ridiculing to a bizarre extreme, anything and everything to do with God. They largely profess to be "Atheists" although some, as if to denote a hint of reluctance to go quite that far, will claim agnosticism instead. Best play it safe if we're dealing with a super-force who can send you to the pits of hell for all eternity, eh? But they have a dirty little secret they don't want any of us to know. They are not, in fact, Atheists or agnostic.

True Atheists have absolutely no inclination to attack people who profess religious belief. If anything, they are amused by the "believers" and find them a bit of a novelty. Much like an adult who encounters a child believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny. There is no harm to the adult in such beliefs, the adult knows these are not real entities, and it's simply an amusement to them. In fact, they may even 'play along' with the idea, just in the name of fun. What does it hurt? No, you don't see hoards of smart-assed punks at the mall where Santa visits, ridiculing and belittling the people standing in line to see him. Message boards aren't clogged up with degenerate misfits decrying the belief of a giant bunny who brings candy and hides eggs, because it doesn't really matter to anyone that some people entertain this notion.

Oh but it's because those are just kids, Boss! Well okay, let's take the thousands of nutty conspiracy theories out there. Do you see any evidence of people devoting every waking hour to go on message boards and forums to "inform" these people how they are crazy and misinformed? Nope. It doesn't matter. As long as you know something is too far-fetched to be true, you could care less what other people think. If someone wants to think Elvis is still alive on some remote island, what difference does that make to me? I might be inclined to casually comment that I don't believe it, but I am certainly not devoting the bulk of my energy and time online to categorically try and refute any inkling of thought pertaining to such a theory. And I am certainly not going to the extreme efforts to ridicule and insult the nuts who believe such theories. It's just not that important to me, nor to anyone else for that matter.

But with the God-haters and God, things are quite different. Although they claim to be Atheists or agnostics, my suspicion is they are anything but. It appears they are devout believers in God, who fully understand the power of God and how much God influences others who believe in Him. To put it in simple terms, they fear God. They are afraid if they do not stand up and fight God with all their might, God may become a bigger influence and that wouldn't be good for them, for whatever reason.

Most of the time, these reasons center around that person's life choices. They have totally abandoned the God they very much believe in, so they can be unaccountable for their moral behaviors. As long as there is "no god" to judge them, they can do whatever they please and there are no consequences. It's important that we understand, any time someone is doing something immoral or wrong, they had rather have company. This provides a codependency, a way they can somehow justify their behavior to themselves.

So this is why the God-haters persist on message boards and forums, to 'recruit' people over to their way of thinking. They believe they can ridicule and cajole people into being ashamed of their beliefs and those people will ultimately join their faction. If nothing else, it is 'therapeutic' for them to vent their anger and vitriol toward the God they know is real, and they are almost certain to meet up with others who are doing the same thing.

It just dawned on me. We persist because you claim to have the answers to questions we all agree we don't really know.

1. Where did we come from?
2. How did we get here?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Is there a creator?
5. What happens when we die?

I love living in a free society where we don't have to all be indoctrinated with a Muslim Jewish Mormon or Christian fairytale that claims to know the answers to these questions. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Boss]

It just dawned on me. We persist because you claim to have the answers to questions we all agree we don't really know.

1. Where did we come from?
2. How did we get here?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Is there a creator?
5. What happens when we die?

I love living in a free society where we don't have to all be indoctrinated with a Muslim Jewish Mormon or Christian fairytale that claims to know the answers to these questions. Is that so hard to understand?

If we all agreed there wouldn't be these never-ending threads. It appears that is exactly what we don't do... agree. You don't want to accept any view other than one that purports to have no answer... yet you seem to want to promote your non-answer as an answer. You've never answered any of the questions you posed but you always want to claim you have... and you want to exploit science to back you up... that's the part I have a problem with.

Yes, we are fortunate to live in a free society where you can believe whatever you please... I have no problem with that... this isn't about our faith in beliefs. When it comes down to it, everything in reality including reality itself is a faith in belief.

In what way have I tried to indoctrinate you? In all the threads we've had this same debate, what have I ever said that you consider me trying to indoctrinate you? I don't care what you believe. I'm only here to challenge you when you make erroneous claims about God being a fairy tale or figment of imagination. You can have that belief but you're not going to assert it as a fact.