Why do the God-haters persist?

[presonorek]

1. Where did we come from? A vagina
2. How did we get here? Sex
3. What is the purpose of life? I'm not sure. Give me a few years.
4. Is there a creator? No
5. What happens when we die? Rotting

4 out of 5 ain't bad.

 

[sealybobo]

It just dawned on me. We persist because you claim to have the answers to questions we all agree we don't really know.

1. Where did we come from?
2. How did we get here?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Is there a creator?
5. What happens when we die?

I love living in a free society where we don't have to all be indoctrinated with a Muslim Jewish Mormon or Christian fairytale that claims to know the answers to these questions. Is that so hard to understand?

If we all agreed there wouldn't be these never-ending threads. It appears that is exactly what we don't do... agree. You don't want to accept any view other than one that purports to have no answer... yet you seem to want to promote your non-answer as an answer. You've never answered any of the questions you posed but you always want to claim you have... and you want to exploit science to back you up... that's the part I have a problem with.

Yes, we are fortunate to live in a free society where you can believe whatever you please... I have no problem with that... this isn't about our faith in beliefs. When it comes down to it, everything in reality including reality itself is a faith in belief.

In what way have I tried to indoctrinate you? In all the threads we've had this same debate, what have I ever said that you consider me trying to indoctrinate you? I don't care what you believe. I'm only here to challenge you when you make erroneous claims about God being a fairy tale or figment of imagination. You can have that belief but you're not going to assert it as a fact.

Science doesn't claim to know the answers to the questions I asked. I didn't either. You did. And I don't care what you believe don't try to pass stories off as fact. You believe for philosophical reasons not because he sent his son or talked to moses

 

[presonorek]

It just dawned on me. We persist because you claim to have the answers to questions we all agree we don't really know.

1. Where did we come from?
2. How did we get here?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Is there a creator?
5. What happens when we die?

I love living in a free society where we don't have to all be indoctrinated with a Muslim Jewish Mormon or Christian fairytale that claims to know the answers to these questions. Is that so hard to understand?

If we all agreed there wouldn't be these never-ending threads. It appears that is exactly what we don't do... agree. You don't want to accept any view other than one that purports to have no answer... yet you seem to want to promote your non-answer as an answer. You've never answered any of the questions you posed but you always want to claim you have... and you want to exploit science to back you up... that's the part I have a problem with.

Yes, we are fortunate to live in a free society where you can believe whatever you please... I have no problem with that... this isn't about our faith in beliefs. When it comes down to it, everything in reality including reality itself is a faith in belief.

In what way have I tried to indoctrinate you? In all the threads we've had this same debate, what have I ever said that you consider me trying to indoctrinate you? I don't care what you believe. I'm only here to challenge you when you make erroneous claims about God being a fairy tale or figment of imagination. You can have that belief but you're not going to assert it as a fact.

Science doesn't claim to know the answers to the questions I asked. I didn't either. You did. And I don't care what you believe don't try to pass stories off as fact. You believe for philosophical reasons not because he sent his son or talked to moses

I know 4 out of 5 of the questions that you asked.

 

[Boss]

Science doesn't claim to know the answers to the questions I asked. I didn't either. You did. And I don't care what you believe don't try to pass stories off as fact. You believe for philosophical reasons not because he sent his son or talked to moses

No, I believe what I believe because logic dictates there is no other option. We obviously came from something... we exist. Physical nature cannot create itself.... it's a paradox. Physical matter cannot create itself... it's a paradox. Physical energy cannot create itself... it's a paradox. All of it necessitates some metaphysical force to initiate a physical universe. There is no other logical explanation.

Now, when you speak of "stories" and "sending sons and talking to moses" ...those are religious beliefs. I am not a religious person. We've been through this dozens and dozens of times and you just keep going back to it for some reason. I don't try to pass off stories as fact... never have, never will... you won't find a single post by me in that regard... yet here you are, making that false claim about me. It is this kind of dishonesty with you that frustrates me.

I am a Spiritualist. I believe in a universal spiritual force. And I use the word "believe" loosely because I have personal evidence that proves it to me, if I didn't, I couldn't believe it. I can accept very little on blind faith, that's why I am not a Christian. I have nothing against Christians, they are often very good people with the best of intentions. I just don't have their faith in the same God. And hey... they may be absolutely right... I don't know. All I can go by is what I know. Nothing you will ever say to me is going to change that.

 

[Boss]

I know 4 out of 5 of the questions that you asked.

No you don't. You took everything out of context and made a smart assed reply. It took less than two brain cells to do that.

 

[presonorek]

I know 4 out of 5 of the questions that you asked.

No you don't. You took everything out of context and made a smart assed reply. It took less than two brain cells to do that.

Do you have better answers?

1. Where did we come from?
2. How did we get here?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Is there a creator?
5. What happens when we die?

4 out of 5 of my answers were 100% factual. With the third question I was just sort of making a smart ass reply and taking things out of context. It only took one and a half brain cells to answer question number 3.

The other 4 were correct to the best of my knowledge and observation. However if I answered them incorrectly I'd be interested in hearing the correct answers from you or anybody else.

 

[sealybobo]

I know 4 out of 5 of the questions that you asked.

No you don't. You took everything out of context and made a smart assed reply. It took less than two brain cells to do that.

Do you have better answers?

1. Where did we come from?
2. How did we get here?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Is there a creator?
5. What happens when we die?

4 out of 5 of my answers were 100% factual. With the third question I was just sort of making a smart ass reply and taking things out of context. It only took one and a half brain cells to answer question number 3.

The other 4 were correct to the best of my knowledge and observation. However if I answered them incorrectly I'd be interested in hearing the correct answers from you or anybody else.

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

 

[presonorek]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

Have you heard that theory that nothing exists? I can't find the youtube video that I seen that explains the theory. The scientist explains the evidence that there is an equal number of positive energy and negative energy. Even if the universe continues to expand the amount of positive and negative energy remain equal.

5 positive energy - 5 negative energy = 0 or nothing

Nothing existing does make more sense than something existing. Our observation tells us that this is impossible because we see things that exist. It could be that we are only seeing the positive energy. The negative energy is elsewhere in the universe. Therefore we do exist but the universe as a whole doesn't exist. It sounds silly but makes sense. The logical flaw I see is that it is based on the premise that there is an equal amount of negative energy and positive energy. I don't know how that would be determined or calculated. It probably wasn't.

 

[Boss]

Do you have better answers?

1. Where did we come from?
2. How did we get here?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Is there a creator?
5. What happens when we die?

4 out of 5 of my answers were 100% factual. With the third question I was just sort of making a smart ass reply and taking things out of context. It only took one and a half brain cells to answer question number 3.

The other 4 were correct to the best of my knowledge and observation. However if I answered them incorrectly I'd be interested in hearing the correct answers from you or anybody else.

Well let's go through your answers. 1) Where did we come from? Your answer was "a vagina." You don't think that was a smart assed reply taking the question completely out of context? Then you're a moron or retard. Obviously, the context was... where did life, the universe, physical existence, come from? 2) How did we get here? Your answer: "Sex!" Again... a smart assed reply taking the question out of context. We're not talking about how you were reproduced. 3) You didn't answer, and 4 & 5 you gave your rhetorical opinion without any explanation.

Like I said, it took less than two brain cells to make your reply. It's not even worthy an intelligent response other than to advise you to stay out of adult conversations.

If you want to know what I think, read the thread, I've explained it all throughout. If you happen to gain some maturity and wish to engage in adult conversation about the topic, then by all means, do so. Otherwise, you should keep your trap shut because you're just going to be embarrassed and humiliated as a moron.

 

[Boss]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

You have a point.
His only point was to be a smart ass.

We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started.
No... We really don't know. You can't explain it with physics because physics cannot create physics.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal.
No we don't.

It's obvious. It's logical.
No, it's not obvious or logical. It's quite impossible according to physics.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?
Because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Because of Newtonian Laws of Motion. Because of Einstein's Theory of General and Special Relativity. We know the universe had a beginning and will have an ending... physics proves this.

The concepts of eternal and infinite are philosophical. They are not physical concepts, thus, are metaphysical. The concept of God is also philosophical and not physical. To believe in an eternal and infinite universe is to believe in God. It's merely a different way to express the same concepts.

 

[Hollie]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

You have a point.
His only point was to be a smart ass.

We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started.
No... We really don't know. You can't explain it with physics because physics cannot create physics.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal.
No we don't.

It's obvious. It's logical.
No, it's not obvious or logical. It's quite impossible according to physics.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?
Because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Because of Newtonian Laws of Motion. Because of Einstein's Theory of General and Special Relativity. We know the universe had a beginning and will have an ending... physics proves this.

The concepts of eternal and infinite are philosophical. They are not physical concepts, thus, are metaphysical. The concept of God is also philosophical and not physical. To believe in an eternal and infinite universe is to believe in God. It's merely a different way to express the same concepts.

All is resolved by retreat to Bossy's Law:

"..... because I say so".

 

[Boss]

Have you heard that theory that nothing exists?

Einstein once said: "Reality is an illusion albeit a persistent one." He is talking about this very thing. Everything we perceive as reality has already happened. It's impossible for mortal humans to have a true realization of present time because physics must happen first. We have a perception of what we assume to be present time. If you look at yourself in the mirror, you assume that is you in the present but it's not.... it's you a nanosecond ago. Light had to travel, it bounced off you, reflected in the mirror, returned to your eye, was processed by your brain through the optic nerve and became a perception.... all of that took some amount of time to happen. So everything you observe has already happened. We cannot directly observe the present.

Time itself is problematic... The past no longer exists... the future is yet to exist and the present takes no time at all... so does time really exist? We have a perception of something and we assume it is the present time... in other words, we have faith in reality's existence.

 

[hobelim]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

You have a point.
His only point was to be a smart ass.

We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started.
No... We really don't know. You can't explain it with physics because physics cannot create physics.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal.
No we don't.

It's obvious. It's logical.
No, it's not obvious or logical. It's quite impossible according to physics.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?
Because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Because of Newtonian Laws of Motion. Because of Einstein's Theory of General and Special Relativity. We know the universe had a beginning and will have an ending... physics proves this.

The concepts of eternal and infinite are philosophical. They are not physical concepts, thus, are metaphysical. The concept of God is also philosophical and not physical. To believe in an eternal and infinite universe is to believe in God. It's merely a different way to express the same concepts.

All is resolved by retreat to Bossy's Law:

"..... because I say so".

He does make certain points though. It is true that for the past thousands of years people have expressed a belief in something, gods, etc. He says its because humans are hardwired to believe even though its obvious that the instinct to survive is what is hard wired and people have expressed a belief in gods because if they didn't they, and sometimes even their entire family, were executed.

 

[sealybobo]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

You have a point.
His only point was to be a smart ass.

We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started.
No... We really don't know. You can't explain it with physics because physics cannot create physics.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal.
No we don't.

It's obvious. It's logical.
No, it's not obvious or logical. It's quite impossible according to physics.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?
Because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Because of Newtonian Laws of Motion. Because of Einstein's Theory of General and Special Relativity. We know the universe had a beginning and will have an ending... physics proves this.

The concepts of eternal and infinite are philosophical. They are not physical concepts, thus, are metaphysical. The concept of God is also philosophical and not physical. To believe in an eternal and infinite universe is to believe in God. It's merely a different way to express the same concepts.

This/you are just ridiculous really. You think there was a beginning of time? That's how small you think. Sure there was a beginning of time for our universe, but make no mistake that time existed long before our universe got started. We just have no way of measuring it. Sucks to suck. But just because you suck doesn't mean time didn't exist just because your brain can't wrap your brain around it.

Amazing that you think before our universe a god existed but time did not. You can accept that god is eternal but not time. Sorry boss but there is no need for an eternal god. We have eternal time and space. Deal with it.

 

[sealybobo]

Have you heard that theory that nothing exists?

Einstein once said: "Reality is an illusion albeit a persistent one." He is talking about this very thing. Everything we perceive as reality has already happened. It's impossible for mortal humans to have a true realization of present time because physics must happen first. We have a perception of what we assume to be present time. If you look at yourself in the mirror, you assume that is you in the present but it's not.... it's you a nanosecond ago. Light had to travel, it bounced off you, reflected in the mirror, returned to your eye, was processed by your brain through the optic nerve and became a perception.... all of that took some amount of time to happen. So everything you observe has already happened. We cannot directly observe the present.

Time itself is problematic... The past no longer exists... the future is yet to exist and the present takes no time at all... so does time really exist? We have a perception of something and we assume it is the present time... in other words, we have faith in reality's existence.

I don't have a problem with time. Isn't that funny the guy who has a problem with god has no problem with time and the guy who has no problem with god has a problem with time.

 

[sealybobo]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

You have a point.
His only point was to be a smart ass.

We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started.
No... We really don't know. You can't explain it with physics because physics cannot create physics.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal.
No we don't.

It's obvious. It's logical.
No, it's not obvious or logical. It's quite impossible according to physics.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?
Because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Because of Newtonian Laws of Motion. Because of Einstein's Theory of General and Special Relativity. We know the universe had a beginning and will have an ending... physics proves this.

The concepts of eternal and infinite are philosophical. They are not physical concepts, thus, are metaphysical. The concept of God is also philosophical and not physical. To believe in an eternal and infinite universe is to believe in God. It's merely a different way to express the same concepts.

All is resolved by retreat to Bossy's Law:

"..... because I say so".

He does make certain points though. It is true that for the past thousands of years people have expressed a belief in something, gods, etc. He says its because humans are hardwired to believe even though its obvious that the instinct to survive is what is hard wired and people have expressed a belief in gods because if they didn't they, and sometimes even their entire family, were executed.

I told my nephew a friend of mine is an atheist and my nephew said he doesn't like him then. Do you think I told him I too am an atheist? Nope. Because he's only 14. When he turns 18 I'll tell him what a fucking brainwashed idiot he was at 14. Religious people put a lot of pressure on the rest of us. Especially when someone dies. Do I really have to sit and stand when the priest says? Do I have to make the sign of the cross when everyone else does? If I don't, why didn't I? I feel like Colin Kapernick not standing for the national anthem. LOL.

 

[Hollie]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

You have a point.
His only point was to be a smart ass.

We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started.
No... We really don't know. You can't explain it with physics because physics cannot create physics.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal.
No we don't.

It's obvious. It's logical.
No, it's not obvious or logical. It's quite impossible according to physics.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?
Because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Because of Newtonian Laws of Motion. Because of Einstein's Theory of General and Special Relativity. We know the universe had a beginning and will have an ending... physics proves this.

The concepts of eternal and infinite are philosophical. They are not physical concepts, thus, are metaphysical. The concept of God is also philosophical and not physical. To believe in an eternal and infinite universe is to believe in God. It's merely a different way to express the same concepts.

All is resolved by retreat to Bossy's Law:

"..... because I say so".

He does make certain points though. It is true that for the past thousands of years people have expressed a belief in something, gods, etc. He says its because humans are hardwired to believe even though its obvious that the instinct to survive is what is hard wired and people have expressed a belief in gods because if they didn't they, and sometimes even their entire family, were executed.

I think his "point" is malformed. In a historical (hysterical) sense, everyone's concept of gods comes from various books written by men. It's just so convenient that the various gods display all the attributes of humanity (our wants, desires, frailties, fears and superstitions). Humans have, for much of their tenure on earth, invented many gods to explain what they didn't understand so such projections of spirit worlds as delineated by the currently configured gods are no exception. Specific religions merely evidence cultural bias, a predilection for organization, sanctioned approved behavior, etc. For example, the angry, spiteful god of the OT became a very different fellow by the time he was incorporated into Christianity. People always get religion wrong because they are fallible humans.

These human defined religions configured around human defined gods pre-define the supernatural (including the god(s), spirit realms, miracles) as "excused" from any verifiable standard and then proceed calmly and "reasonably" inside that paradigm where the gods are presumed to be beyond any constraints of rationality, nature or human understanding. At the theistic level, it's "religious belief". At the level of reason and rationality, it's utter delusion.

 

[emilynghiem]

Now you are just lying. To ask if I am "BACK" on crack is to insult me as a drug addict, as if the logical genius you pretend to be wouldn't know.

Again, when you come up with some convoluted load of horse shit to try and spin something around and make an impossible point, you should expect people to think you are back on the crack again. I didn't say you were a drug addict, I don't know you. I hope you're not and I encourage you to not do crack before you post.

Back to the point... Most humans believe in something greater than self and always have. Most religious people also believe in something greater than self. AND... even a majority of Atheist people admit that it's possible something greater than self can exist. In fact, only about 5% of the human species are Nihilistic and believe in nothing.

atheism – which is typically seen as a modern phenomenon – was not just common in ancient Greece and pre-Christian Rome, but probably flourished more in those societies than in most civilizations since.

As a result, the study challenges two assumptions that prop up current debates between atheists and believers: Firstly, the idea that atheism is a modern point of view, and second, the idea of “religious universalism” – that humans are naturally predisposed, or “wired”, to believe in gods.

People in the ancient world did not always believe in the gods, a new study suggests – casting doubt on the idea that religious belief is a “default setting” for humans.

Disbelieve it or not, ancient history suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as religion

Dear sealybobo:

I would make a distinction between:
* Anti-theists who are politically and socially against Theists and Religionists for personal and emotional reasons
* Atheists who proactively do not believe in a collective intelligence or personified God acting as its own agent
(but if they were given proof or explanation they might become at least neutral like nontheists)
* NONtheists who are naturally secular in thought and do not personify the forces of Life, God or Nature (but may still believe in what God stands for but just not represent those forces as a Personified Deity). These tend to be neutral and not actively against the concept for any emotional, social or political reasons.

Which one are you?

I have a friend who does not believe anyone really went to the moon, and that the earth is flat.
So of the flat-earthers there are also different types:
* those who hold to these beliefs because they are AGAINST the people preaching that the earth is spherical and that going to the moon is real, out of distrust or fear of some AGENDA
* those who truly do not believe it and would need to see proof or explanation to either change their views or become more neutral about it

What is curious to me is I have never met anyone who was neutral about the earth being flat/round as I have met people who are neutral about God. I know many NONtheist type atheists who are happy to accept an "equivalent" of what God means and be okay with that. So this tells me a lot of the problem is the "social stigma and agenda" surrounding religion and "theism" that people are so against. Even Christians against other denominations are basically against the ABUSE of religion for political agenda, so this is common even among believers.

So that is a separate issue, from believing in "what God means."

Many of the NONtheists I know will readily admit the issue is with the "believers and religionists" who impose conditions and won't be satisfied with a secular explanation of what God means. If these theists "emotionally and proactively" reject/harass nontheists, then a lot of the reaction is in response to that hostile approach.

sealybobo from reading your posts and understanding your issues and concerns,
the impression I get from you is that you DO believe in truth and justice. So these are faith-based concepts
that are part of the driving force and meaning behind God and Jesus but expressed in secular principles.

My impression of you is that you do not reject the intrinsic value, the universal importance to humanity of establishing Truth and Justice. But you are one of those who
* thinks in secular nontheistic terms not in religious personifications
* rejects the religionizing, politicizing and social judgments by believers imposed on others who don't share those beliefs or join their groups

Is that a fair assessment of what you do believe in and what you are against?
Thanks, sealybobo I just perceive you as a fair person who seeks truth and rejects false unjust constructs that get in the way of that process of being fair and universally including all people by sticking to common sense, truth and justice based on reason.

 

[emilynghiem]

You have a point. We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started. At least we think we do. But we don't know how life got started on earth. And we don't know what was before the big bang.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal. It's obvious. It's logical. There is no need for a creator. The creation is eternal. No God necessary to create what has always existed.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?

You have a point.
His only point was to be a smart ass.

We know how we got here. We know how the planets and stars got started.
No... We really don't know. You can't explain it with physics because physics cannot create physics.

But what we do know is time and space are infinite and eternal.
No we don't.

It's obvious. It's logical.
No, it's not obvious or logical. It's quite impossible according to physics.

Why can this God be eternal but time and space can't?
Because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Because of Newtonian Laws of Motion. Because of Einstein's Theory of General and Special Relativity. We know the universe had a beginning and will have an ending... physics proves this.

The concepts of eternal and infinite are philosophical. They are not physical concepts, thus, are metaphysical. The concept of God is also philosophical and not physical. To believe in an eternal and infinite universe is to believe in God. It's merely a different way to express the same concepts.

All is resolved by retreat to Bossy's Law:

"..... because I say so".

He does make certain points though. It is true that for the past thousands of years people have expressed a belief in something, gods, etc. He says its because humans are hardwired to believe even though its obvious that the instinct to survive is what is hard wired and people have expressed a belief in gods because if they didn't they, and sometimes even their entire family, were executed.

I think his "point" is malformed. In a historical (hysterical) sense, everyone's concept of gods comes from various books written by men. It's just so convenient that the various gods display all the attributes of humanity (our wants, desires, frailties, fears and superstitions). Humans have, for much of their tenure on earth, invented many gods to explain what they didn't understand so such projections of spirit worlds as delineated by the currently configured gods are no exception. Specific religions merely evidence cultural bias, a predilection for organization, sanctioned approved behavior, etc. For example, the angry, spiteful god of the OT became a very different fellow by the time he was incorporated into Christianity. People always get religion wrong because they are fallible humans.

These human defined religions configured around human defined gods pre-define the supernatural (including the god(s), spirit realms, miracles) as "excused" from any verifiable standard and then proceed calmly and "reasonably" inside that paradigm where the gods are presumed to be beyond any constraints of rationality, nature or human understanding. At the theistic level, it's "religious belief". At the level of reason and rationality, it's utter delusion.

Dear Hollie
RE: "everyone's concept of gods comes from various books written by men"

What about God as Nature, the forces of life.

Did "men" make up the rules of nature and life?

Aren't the BASIS behind the symbolism and representations
"Laws of Nature" that we didn't make up but are "SELF EXISTENT."

Isn't that what GOD/YHWH ultimately means is "whatever forces/truth in life
are self-existent, eteranal and unchanging."

Can we agree to make a DISTINCTION between the
"cultural means of representation that are relative to man's social constructs"
and the
MEANING and CONTENT behind the laws, principles and truth
that we are "attempting" to communicate through these constructs.

Why can't we focus on the MEANING AND CONTENT that is universal.
And quit fighting over whether we call this A B C or 1 2 3 in symbols.

What is the MEANING behind them.
Aren't those concepts UNIVERSAL so that is important:
Truth
Justice
Peace for all humanity

How do we focus on that and not fight over what we call these things collectively in symbols?

Thanks, Hollie
The secular gentiles are supposed to rise in the end times
and bring peace by helping to reason and resolve all these issues.
So it's our turn to rise and shine. Let's use our gifts of reason
and ethics, to work this out like a math and science problem.
Let's prove that consensus can be established by sticking to the
universal concepts behind laws of church and state, and get
people on the same page instead of fighting politically for control of the process.

But if you, I, sealybobo merely jump in and politicize the same process,
then that just doubles or triples the problems. Can we do the opposite
and seek to UNTANGLE the messes, define what terms ALIGN with
what MEANINGS and show we are really aiming for the same goals.
Is the world ready for true peacemaking, to establish "agreed TRUTH
that will set humanity FREE from strife and suffering over conflict"
or are we just in it to fuss and fight and bullying back and forth?

What kind of world do we want to live in and establish as the norm?

 

[Boss]

He says its because humans are hardwired to believe even though its obvious that the instinct to survive is what is hard wired and people have expressed a belief in gods because if they didn't they, and sometimes even their entire family, were executed.

But in even more instances, they were executed FOR their beliefs in God or the wrong God.

For as long as we have evidence of human civilization, we have evidence of humans practicing spiritual beliefs. This goes back tens of thousands of years before any organized religion.

Sigmund Freud, the most noted psychiatrist in history, made the observation about the human mind long ago. We are inherently tied to a belief in something greater than self. He maintained that our complex minds are such that if God did not exist we would have to create him. We would have destroyed ourselves otherwise. I believe humans would have never formed civilizations. It is directly the result of our inherent awareness of something greater than self which enabled us to join together to form civilizations.

Now, does that in of itself prove spiritual existence? No, but it does prove there is something vitally essential to the belief in something spiritual. This simply can't be dismissed as figment of imagination or mental delusions. There is clearly something more fundamental to it than that. If not, the species would have simply discarded the "superstition" many thousands of years ago and there would have probably never been organized religions.... and I would argue, OR civilizations.