The Bible Tells Us When Jesus Returns - Between Tisha B'Av and Day of Atonement 2029

[Parture]

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin.

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

That's because you have taken what other people said falsely about hell and universalism
and thought that is what I mean.

I am saying that all the paths WILL lead to Christ, so Christ brings salvation.

You are saying what other people teach falsely that other things "are the same as Christ"
which is NOT what I am saying. You can't tell on this forum, just like
when you post something here it doesn't sound the same as what I read on that website.

So our perceptions and expressions are not perfect
and you are getting the wrong impression. Sorry for this.

If I did believe and was saying the false things you worry about
like saying hell is not real or hell is annihilation
or saying other religions are the same as or can replace Christ
then I woudl agree with you tha tis false.

I correct these people all the time who get this wrong.

That's not what I am saying.

Christ Jesus IS unique as central and universal to all humanity and is the fulfillment of all the
laws and paths. All things are made new in Christ.

But I don' thave to reject Buddhism or reject Constitutional principles
to teach agreement in truth in Christ. I can use these laws to communicate
just like using science, or real life parables, or whatever helps people to understand.
Any natural laws are governed by Divine Justice which Jesus represents uniquely.
So however people communicate, whether talking about the laws of
gravity, physics, cause and effect or karma, restorative or retributive justice,
Jesus as Justice and God's truth is universal regardless of the laws
man uses to express these truths found in nature.

Emily is not a Christian, she is a universalist so she is going to Hell according to the Bible.

 

[emilynghiem]

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

What Do Most Scholars Believe?

In The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (p. 112), Mike Licona said, "[Gary] Habermas has compiled a list of more than 2,200 sources in French, German, and English in which experts have written on the resurrection from 1975 to the present. He has identified minimal facts that are strongly evidenced and which are regarded as historical by a large majority of scholars, including skeptics. We try to come up with the best historical explanation to account for these facts. This is called the Minimal Facts Approach."

William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection.

Gary Habermas said (2009) on the John Ankerberg Show, "I just did a count recently of what scholars say. First of all you can count guys on one hand of the 2400 sources since 1975 on the resurrection [in] French, German, English...who think apparent death [is true]. When scholars respond they still cite David Strauss. I think we would all like to have that kind of influence in our writings. His critique has been around almost 200 years." Habermas was referring to Strauss's argument that Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah to the disciples all battered and bruised.

Habermas and Licona co-authored the award winning book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004). Historian Paul Maier said the book's response to naturalistic explanations for the resurrection "are the most comprehensive treatment of the subject anywhere." Philosopher J. P. Moreland said the book presented what "may be the most thorough defense of historicity of the resurrection."

Gary said in a 2009 Ankerberg video, "If we start with the cross approximately 30 AD and call that ground zero, 1 Corinthians 15 checks in at about 55 AD whatever the writer, conservative or not conservative, we have 25 years. In ancient historiography this is incredible in a time when the best known biography of Alexander the Great is that of Plutarch almost 400 years after Plutarch. When we learn about the early Caesars from Tacitus to Suetonius a 'good gap' is 100 years; 25 is incredible [for Jesus]. Paul says, 'I am passing onto you as first importance that which I also received' (1 Cor. 15.3)." Paul said, "I make known to you brethren the gospel which I preached to you" (1 Cor. 15.1). Gary says, "This earlier preaching may have taken place 51 AD about 21 years after the cross." But point of fact, Jesus died not in 30 AD, but 33 AD on April 1st (Gregorian), April Fool's Day, Nisan 14, Friday which is no later than 18 years after the cross.

Gary said, "Almost all contemporary scholarship believes Paul received this material (Gal. 1.18) when he went to Jerusalem about 5 years after the cross. Some put it as early as 3 and as late as 8, but he was converted about 2 years after the cross before he went away for 3 years. Paul spent 15 days with Peter. It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul said he preached nothing but Christ crucified." Gary said about James D.G. Dunn, "In his recent book Remembering Jesus that this passage (1 Cor. 15.3ff) wasn't just taught. It was already stratified. It was already put in this creedal form within months of the crucifixion."

Gary said (see video), "I did a count recently of people who have written from about 1990 to-date [2009]. 75% of scholars today say that resurrection or 'something like it occurred.' Of that 75%, three to one say it is a bodily appearance. Ted Peters had a book that was published by Eerdmans a few years ago, and 20 out of 20 scholars in his book that he edited said 'bodily resurrection.' Higher critical scholars who are in the minority will still usually concede the appearance involved sight and was embodied."

In the summer of 2012, Gary wrote in the Southeastern Theological Review, "by beginning with a 'lowest common denominator' version of the facts. If I am correct in holding that this basis is still enough to settle the most pressing historical issues, then it is indeed a crucial contribution to the discussions. We will return below to some ramifications here. Regarding my references to the 'vast majority' or 'virtually all' scholars who agree, is it possible to identify these phrases in more precise terms? In some contexts, I have identified these expressions more specifically. At least when referencing the most important historical occurrences, I frequently think in terms of a ninety-something percentile head-count. No doubt, this is one of the reasons why the concept has gained some attention.

"My bibliography is presently at about 3400 sources and counting, published originally in French, German, or English. Initially I read and catalogued the majority of these publications, charting the representative authors, positions, topics, and so on, concentrating on both well-known and obscure writers alike, across the entire skeptical to liberal to conservative spectrum. As the number of sources grew, I moved more broadly into this research, trying to keep up with the current state of resurrection research. He said this again at William Lane Craig's "On Guard" conference, "1 Corinthians is one of six to eight books all accredited critical scholars accept. You can count the exception on two hands, probably one hand. I have 3400 sources in a bibliography from 1975 to the present (2012). When I say you can count the guys on one hand who disagree with this it is not very many. They believe Paul is the best source, and 1 Corinthians is one of the most dependable sources. They allow 1 Corinthians and Galatians. Both are on the accepted list. Bart Ehrman says they are the authentic Pauline epistle. So does most everybody else. Whatever you write, these two books are allowed [indicating Paul's genuine belief]. Paul is writing a mere [no more than] 25 years later. That is incredible. We have no other founder of a major world religion who has miracles reported of him within a generation."

"I endeavored to be more than fair to all the positions. In fact, if anything, I erred in the direction of cataloguing the most radical positions, since this was the only classification where I included even those authors who did not have specialized scholarly credentials or peer-reviewed publications. It is this group, too, that often tends to doubt or deny that Jesus ever existed. Yet, given that I counted many sources in this category, this means that my study is skewed in the skeptical direction far more than if I had stayed strictly with my requirement of citing only those with scholarly credentials. Still, I included these positions quite liberally, even when the wide majority of mainline scholars, 'liberals' included, rarely even footnoted this material. Of course, this practice would also skew the numbers who proposed naturalistic theories of the resurrection, to which I particularly gravitated.

"The result of all these years of study is a private manuscript of more than 600 pages that simply does little more than line up the scholarly positions and details on these 140 key questions....

"[Mike] Licona begins by listing my three chief Minimal Facts regarding Jesus’ fate: (1) Jesus died due to the process of crucifixion. (2) Very soon afterwards, Jesus’ disciples had experiences that they believed were appearances of the resurrected Jesus. (3) Just a few years later, Saul of Tarsus also experienced what he thought was a post-resurrection appearance of the risen Jesus."

Those aren't actual "facts". Facts can be backed up with real evidence. And all your links lead to personal opinions, not peer-reviewed scientific studies. Please try again.

These are facts as they are backed up with evidence. Only peer reviewed and accredited work by scholars are included in the list. We call this the Minimal Facts Approach because most of these scholars concede Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and believed that the Apostles truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.

Please point out the evidence, I see none. And I read the Minimal Facts Approach and it's not even remotely based on real facts.

The evidence was already given which you did not refute. I explained how the MFA works.

There was no proof in your post, just guys giving their opinions... Please point out one actual piece of real evidence and I will review it again.

Dear Taz
Parture believes in science and using naturalistic observation and means to show the spiritual healing
is real and consistent with science and natural laws.

Would you rather use that as proof that prayers in Jesus really cast out
demonic sickness to cure mental and physical illness as documented by doctors scientifically?

M.D. Rawlings also agreed but insisted this be done purely
by nonreligious scientists so there is no question of bias and skewing the process, results or interpretation afterwards.

I think koshergrl also agreed with the idea of proving and using spiritual healing
to show that these criminal and especially sexual addictions or abuses can be cured
and don't have to be assumed to be either natural or unchangeable, I can't remember what we discussed at the time.

sealybobo would you agree to scientific proof of spiritual healing
to show it is consistent and natural?

 

[Parture]

Those aren't actual "facts". Facts can be backed up with real evidence. And all your links lead to personal opinions, not peer-reviewed scientific studies. Please try again.

These are facts as they are backed up with evidence. Only peer reviewed and accredited work by scholars are included in the list. We call this the Minimal Facts Approach because most of these scholars concede Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and believed that the Apostles truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.

Please point out the evidence, I see none. And I read the Minimal Facts Approach and it's not even remotely based on real facts.

The evidence was already given which you did not refute. I explained how the MFA works.

There was no proof in your post, just guys giving their opinions... Please point out one actual piece of real evidence and I will review it again.

Dear Taz
Parture believes in science and using naturalistic observation and means to show the spiritual healing
is real and consistent with science and natural laws.

Would you rather use that as proof that prayers in Jesus really cast out
demonic sickness to cure mental and physical illness as documented by doctors scientifically?

M.D. Rawlings also agreed but insisted this be done purely
by nonreligious scientists so there is no question of bias and skewing the process, results or interpretation afterwards.

I think koshergrl also agreed with the idea of proving and using spiritual healing
to show that these criminal and especially sexual addictions or abuses can be cured
and don't have to be assumed to be either natural or unchangeable, I can't remember what we discussed at the time.

sealybobo would you agree to scientific proof of spiritual healing
to show it is consistent and natural?

What matters is that emilynghiem is going to Hell because she is a universalist. Jesus was not a universalist. He only saves those accept Him and the way His design is set up people don't have free will if they don't have the free choice to eternally separate themselves from God.

 

[koshergrl]

I agree that we should live as though he will return at any time..in fact I said that.

The rest..that's just vanity.

Since you reject the word of God on these points, to edify, you are vain.

Yeah, right. Because rejecting your nonsense is rejecting the word of God.

Like I said. Vanity.

 

[emilynghiem]

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin.

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

That's because you have taken what other people said falsely about hell and universalism
and thought that is what I mean.

I am saying that all the paths WILL lead to Christ, so Christ brings salvation.

You are saying what other people teach falsely that other things "are the same as Christ"
which is NOT what I am saying. You can't tell on this forum, just like
when you post something here it doesn't sound the same as what I read on that website.

So our perceptions and expressions are not perfect
and you are getting the wrong impression. Sorry for this.

If I did believe and was saying the false things you worry about
like saying hell is not real or hell is annihilation
or saying other religions are the same as or can replace Christ
then I woudl agree with you tha tis false.

I correct these people all the time who get this wrong.

That's not what I am saying.

Christ Jesus IS unique as central and universal to all humanity and is the fulfillment of all the
laws and paths. All things are made new in Christ.

But I don' thave to reject Buddhism or reject Constitutional principles
to teach agreement in truth in Christ. I can use these laws to communicate
just like using science, or real life parables, or whatever helps people to understand.
Any natural laws are governed by Divine Justice which Jesus represents uniquely.
So however people communicate, whether talking about the laws of
gravity, physics, cause and effect or karma, restorative or retributive justice,
Jesus as Justice and God's truth is universal regardless of the laws
man uses to express these truths found in nature.

Emily is not a Christian, she is a universalist so she is going to Hell according to the Bible.

What?
Where in the Bible does it say that everyone but universalists are saved by grace?

If you can find two or three witnesses to agree with you that's fine.
Most people I know will say as long as receive Jesus and are saved by Grace
then something this small, like believing that liberals are better at enforcing Constitutional principles
than conservatives are, is not enough to cause someone to go to hell.

Now if i were to NOT FORGIVE people who disagree, even if I am right or wrong etc,
then the division caused by unforgiveness would cause me not to enter heaven.
But as long as I FORGIVE our differences, even if I am wrong and you are right
or you are right and I am wrong, then this is not a major issue that prevents someone from entering heaven.

Rejecting Christ and not forgiving may prevent it,
but not disagreements over whether God can still save all souls in Christ Jesus
over time and space.

If you want, I can call in elders of every denomination to discuss this
until a consensus is reached in Christ.

We are supposed to call in two or three witnesses to establsh truth.

so far you have a longer list of people you have accused similar as you accuse me.

So I am guessing at least half this problem is you not forgiving something,
like not forgiving the differences between how Buddha gave the natural laws
and how Moses gave them th rough the Bible.

I can forgive those differences and see God created gentiles to be nontheistic on purpose.
So that does not have to reject Christ.

You automatically assume that all Buddha's teachings or all followings reject Christ
and I have found otherwise. I find many Christians who use Buddhist tteachings
to help them love God with their full MINDS because Buddhism teaches how to let go
of material conditions clouding the mind, so it helps with the First Commandment.

I find the teachings of Buddhism to be consistent with God's laws of nature
and spiritual cause and effect, and these are fulfiled in Christ equally
as the church laws given by Moses.

So sure, if you want to declare me or Buddha a false prophet
I can show you where the teachings point to and prepare people
for receiving Christ in the end times to finish the later stages
and are not necessarily for rejecting Christ or dividing from Christianity as you FEAR.

Your FEAR is greater than your FAITH.
You FEAR Buddhism or me as teaching something
so false you FEAR it is going against Christ.

That's your FEAR talking and that is not what
i am saying at all.

the stages of Salvation
3. first we receive a child of God who
comes in the name of the Lord
and by receiving each other as children
of God we receive Jesus
2. anyone who receives Jesus
receives the Father also
1. Anyone who calls upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved

And the Bible says that all tongues shall
confess, so all the tongues and tribes
shall receive the Lord and bring
salvation to all humanity in Christ Jesus.

I don't deny this at all.
I may not be perfect in how I say it
but speaking imperfectly is not enough
to deny entrance into heaven or
none of us wouldgo there.

Only Christ Jesus is perfection
embodied in man.

The rest of us rely on forgiveness
to be saved, and I do believe and
receive this.

If you cannot forgive something faulty
in how I am saying this, tha tis your
own unforgiveness and fear
and that is for you to work through
as part of your own salvation.

I forgive this difference regardelss who
is right or wrong, so it should not
prevent anyone from entering into heaven.

If I can forgive it as something God can fix
why can't you believe God can fix it
as something God can fix.

Why are you saying forgiveness is now a sin?

That is the opposite of what I u nderstand.

I understand the one unforgiveable sin
is blasphemy against the holy spirit
which is the sin of UNforgiveness.

That is quite ironic that you are saying
my willingness to forgive those who
denied Christ and refused to forgive
because I stlil trust God to reach them
through Christ Jesus and bring
forgiveness and transformation anyway
is a sin that would prevent me from entering
heaven.

Parture even your website says Christians
who have fallen are not denied heaven but
are not going to be in the higher process
with the others. So that doesn't mean these
Christians are going to hell; once you
receive salvation you finish the process
and are saved.

So you contradict yourself.
If you are saying it is "too late" and people
are going to hell, by the same token,
it is "too late" and once people receive
Christ grace and salvation they
are going to heaven and can't lose their salvation.
They just may lose their standing to be one
of the elect at the end.

Look at your website and see what it says
I told you already I agreed with how the websitep
said it, but not with how you say it which is different.

I can forgive the differences and flaws in how
we say things wrong because I know in spirit
we agree, and our words and even our
perceptions are not perfect enough to match that.

If I can forgive this because I know God will correct
anything important, then I am sure God can forgive it
who can correct these things.

Being forgiving and trusting in God
is not a sin to cause me to burn in hell.
Only if I do not forgive and I reject Christ,
but here I am welcoming reconciliation in Christ
not rejecting it. I forgive our differences and have
no problem addressing and resolving them in Christ.

So that is not going to send anyone to hell.

 

[Parture]

These are facts as they are backed up with evidence. Only peer reviewed and accredited work by scholars are included in the list. We call this the Minimal Facts Approach because most of these scholars concede Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and believed that the Apostles truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.

Please point out the evidence, I see none. And I read the Minimal Facts Approach and it's not even remotely based on real facts.

The evidence was already given which you did not refute. I explained how the MFA works.

There was no proof in your post, just guys giving their opinions... Please point out one actual piece of real evidence and I will review it again.

Dear Taz
Parture believes in science and using naturalistic observation and means to show the spiritual healing
is real and consistent with science and natural laws.

Would you rather use that as proof that prayers in Jesus really cast out
demonic sickness to cure mental and physical illness as documented by doctors scientifically?

M.D. Rawlings also agreed but insisted this be done purely
by nonreligious scientists so there is no question of bias and skewing the process, results or interpretation afterwards.

I think koshergrl also agreed with the idea of proving and using spiritual healing
to show that these criminal and especially sexual addictions or abuses can be cured
and don't have to be assumed to be either natural or unchangeable, I can't remember what we discussed at the time.

sealybobo would you agree to scientific proof of spiritual healing
to show it is consistent and natural?

What matters is that emilynghiem is going to Hell because she is a universalist. Jesus was not a universalist. He only saves those accept Him and the way His design is set up people don't have free will if they don't have the free choice to eternally separate themselves from God.

Also Emily is not a Trinitarian, because a Trinitarian God will never go into Hell to extract people from it. It is sealed, permanently devoid of God's Triune presence.

 

[Parture]

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin.

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

That's because you have taken what other people said falsely about hell and universalism
and thought that is what I mean.

I am saying that all the paths WILL lead to Christ, so Christ brings salvation.

You are saying what other people teach falsely that other things "are the same as Christ"
which is NOT what I am saying. You can't tell on this forum, just like
when you post something here it doesn't sound the same as what I read on that website.

So our perceptions and expressions are not perfect
and you are getting the wrong impression. Sorry for this.

If I did believe and was saying the false things you worry about
like saying hell is not real or hell is annihilation
or saying other religions are the same as or can replace Christ
then I woudl agree with you tha tis false.

I correct these people all the time who get this wrong.

That's not what I am saying.

Christ Jesus IS unique as central and universal to all humanity and is the fulfillment of all the
laws and paths. All things are made new in Christ.

But I don' thave to reject Buddhism or reject Constitutional principles
to teach agreement in truth in Christ. I can use these laws to communicate
just like using science, or real life parables, or whatever helps people to understand.
Any natural laws are governed by Divine Justice which Jesus represents uniquely.
So however people communicate, whether talking about the laws of
gravity, physics, cause and effect or karma, restorative or retributive justice,
Jesus as Justice and God's truth is universal regardless of the laws
man uses to express these truths found in nature.

Emily is not a Christian, she is a universalist so she is going to Hell according to the Bible.

What?
Where in the Bible does it say that everyone but universalists are saved by grace?

If you can find two or three witnesses to agree with you that's fine.
Most people I know will say as long as receive Jesus and are saved by Grace
then something this small, like believing that liberals are better at enforcing Constitutional principles
than conservatives are, is not enough to cause someone to go to hell.

Now if i were to NOT FORGIVE people who disagree, even if I am right or wrong etc,
then the division caused by unforgiveness would cause me not to enter heaven.
But as long as I FORGIVE our differences, even if I am wrong and you are right
or you are right and I am wrong, then this is not a major issue that prevents someone from entering heaven.

Rejecting Christ and not forgiving may prevent it,
but not disagreements over whether God can still save all souls in Christ Jesus
over time and space.

If you want, I can call in elders of every denomination to discuss this
until a consensus is reached in Christ.

We are supposed to call in two or three witnesses to establsh truth.

so far you have a longer list of people you have accused similar as you accuse me.

So I am guessing at least half this problem is you not forgiving something,
like not forgiving the differences between how Buddha gave the natural laws
and how Moses gave them th rough the Bible.

I can forgive those differences and see God created gentiles to be nontheistic on purpose.
So that does not have to reject Christ.

You automatically assume that all Buddha's teachings or all followings reject Christ
and I have found otherwise. I find many Christians who use Buddhist tteachings
to help them love God with their full MINDS because Buddhism teaches how to let go
of material conditions clouding the mind, so it helps with the First Commandment.

I find the teachings of Buddhism to be consistent with God's laws of nature
and spiritual cause and effect, and these are fulfiled in Christ equally
as the church laws given by Moses.

So sure, if you want to declare me or Buddha a false prophet
I can show you where the teachings point to and prepare people
for receiving Christ in the end times to finish the later stages
and are not necessarily for rejecting Christ or dividing from Christianity as you FEAR.

Your FEAR is greater than your FAITH.
You FEAR Buddhism or me as teaching something
so false you FEAR it is going against Christ.

That's your FEAR talking and that is not what
i am saying at all.

the stages of Salvation
3. first we receive a child of God who
comes in the name of the Lord
and by receiving each other as children
of God we receive Jesus
2. anyone who receives Jesus
receives the Father also
1. Anyone who calls upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved

And the Bible says that all tongues shall
confess, so all the tongues and tribes
shall receive the Lord and bring
salvation to all humanity in Christ Jesus.

I don't deny this at all.
I may not be perfect in how I say it
but speaking imperfectly is not enough
to deny entrance into heaven or
none of us wouldgo there.

Only Christ Jesus is perfection
embodied in man.

The rest of us rely on forgiveness
to be saved, and I do believe and
receive this.

If you cannot forgive something faulty
in how I am saying this, tha tis your
own unforgiveness and fear
and that is for you to work through
as part of your own salvation.

I forgive this difference regardelss who
is right or wrong, so it should not
prevent anyone from entering into heaven.

If I can forgive it as something God can fix
why can't you believe God can fix it
as something God can fix.

Why are you saying forgiveness is now a sin?

That is the opposite of what I u nderstand.

I understand the one unforgiveable sin
is blasphemy against the holy spirit
which is the sin of UNforgiveness.

That is quite ironic that you are saying
my willingness to forgive those who
denied Christ and refused to forgive
because I stlil trust God to reach them
through Christ Jesus and bring
forgiveness and transformation anyway
is a sin that would prevent me from entering
heaven.

Parture even your website says Christians
who have fallen are not denied heaven but
are not going to be in the higher process
with the others. So that doesn't mean these
Christians are going to hell; once you
receive salvation you finish the process
and are saved.

So you contradict yourself.
If you are saying it is "too late" and people
are going to hell, by the same token,
it is "too late" and once people receive
Christ grace and salvation they
are going to heaven and can't lose their salvation.
They just may lose their standing to be one
of the elect at the end.

Look at your website and see what it says
I told you already I agreed with how the websitep
said it, but not with how you say it which is different.

I can forgive the differences and flaws in how
we say things wrong because I know in spirit
we agree, and our words and even our
perceptions are not perfect enough to match that.

If I can forgive this because I know God will correct
anything important, then I am sure God can forgive it
who can correct these things.

Being forgiving and trusting in God
is not a sin to cause me to burn in hell.
Only if I do not forgive and I reject Christ,
but here I am welcoming reconciliation in Christ
not rejecting it. I forgive our differences and have
no problem addressing and resolving them in Christ.

So that is not going to send anyone to hell.

Once a person dies it is too late. Their choice is made. That's why you find most in their 40s and above never turn to Christ because they have already made up their mind for eternity.

 

[Parture]

I agree that we should live as though he will return at any time..in fact I said that.

The rest..that's just vanity.

Since you reject the word of God on these points, to edify, you are vain.

Yeah, right. Because rejecting your nonsense is rejecting the word of God.

Like I said. Vanity.

You're speaking nonsense.

 

[Parture]

Brainwashed from birth? We were all brainwashed from birth for we were all born into sin.

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

One way you can check if you are searching out God with all your heart and soul is to try to find a better proof than what God has provided in the NT. And you can't. That's how you know.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

That's because you have taken what other people said falsely about hell and universalism
and thought that is what I mean.

I am saying that all the paths WILL lead to Christ, so Christ brings salvation.

You are saying what other people teach falsely that other things "are the same as Christ"
which is NOT what I am saying. You can't tell on this forum, just like
when you post something here it doesn't sound the same as what I read on that website.

So our perceptions and expressions are not perfect
and you are getting the wrong impression. Sorry for this.

If I did believe and was saying the false things you worry about
like saying hell is not real or hell is annihilation
or saying other religions are the same as or can replace Christ
then I woudl agree with you tha tis false.

I correct these people all the time who get this wrong.

That's not what I am saying.

Christ Jesus IS unique as central and universal to all humanity and is the fulfillment of all the
laws and paths. All things are made new in Christ.

But I don' thave to reject Buddhism or reject Constitutional principles
to teach agreement in truth in Christ. I can use these laws to communicate
just like using science, or real life parables, or whatever helps people to understand.
Any natural laws are governed by Divine Justice which Jesus represents uniquely.
So however people communicate, whether talking about the laws of
gravity, physics, cause and effect or karma, restorative or retributive justice,
Jesus as Justice and God's truth is universal regardless of the laws
man uses to express these truths found in nature.

Emily is not a Christian, she is a universalist so she is going to Hell according to the Bible.

What?
Where in the Bible does it say that everyone but universalists are saved by grace?

If you can find two or three witnesses to agree with you that's fine.
Most people I know will say as long as receive Jesus and are saved by Grace
then something this small, like believing that liberals are better at enforcing Constitutional principles
than conservatives are, is not enough to cause someone to go to hell.

Now if i were to NOT FORGIVE people who disagree, even if I am right or wrong etc,
then the division caused by unforgiveness would cause me not to enter heaven.
But as long as I FORGIVE our differences, even if I am wrong and you are right
or you are right and I am wrong, then this is not a major issue that prevents someone from entering heaven.

Rejecting Christ and not forgiving may prevent it,
but not disagreements over whether God can still save all souls in Christ Jesus
over time and space.

If you want, I can call in elders of every denomination to discuss this
until a consensus is reached in Christ.

We are supposed to call in two or three witnesses to establsh truth.

so far you have a longer list of people you have accused similar as you accuse me.

So I am guessing at least half this problem is you not forgiving something,
like not forgiving the differences between how Buddha gave the natural laws
and how Moses gave them th rough the Bible.

I can forgive those differences and see God created gentiles to be nontheistic on purpose.
So that does not have to reject Christ.

You automatically assume that all Buddha's teachings or all followings reject Christ
and I have found otherwise. I find many Christians who use Buddhist tteachings
to help them love God with their full MINDS because Buddhism teaches how to let go
of material conditions clouding the mind, so it helps with the First Commandment.

I find the teachings of Buddhism to be consistent with God's laws of nature
and spiritual cause and effect, and these are fulfiled in Christ equally
as the church laws given by Moses.

So sure, if you want to declare me or Buddha a false prophet
I can show you where the teachings point to and prepare people
for receiving Christ in the end times to finish the later stages
and are not necessarily for rejecting Christ or dividing from Christianity as you FEAR.

Your FEAR is greater than your FAITH.
You FEAR Buddhism or me as teaching something
so false you FEAR it is going against Christ.

That's your FEAR talking and that is not what
i am saying at all.

the stages of Salvation
3. first we receive a child of God who
comes in the name of the Lord
and by receiving each other as children
of God we receive Jesus
2. anyone who receives Jesus
receives the Father also
1. Anyone who calls upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved

And the Bible says that all tongues shall
confess, so all the tongues and tribes
shall receive the Lord and bring
salvation to all humanity in Christ Jesus.

I don't deny this at all.
I may not be perfect in how I say it
but speaking imperfectly is not enough
to deny entrance into heaven or
none of us wouldgo there.

Only Christ Jesus is perfection
embodied in man.

The rest of us rely on forgiveness
to be saved, and I do believe and
receive this.

If you cannot forgive something faulty
in how I am saying this, tha tis your
own unforgiveness and fear
and that is for you to work through
as part of your own salvation.

I forgive this difference regardelss who
is right or wrong, so it should not
prevent anyone from entering into heaven.

If I can forgive it as something God can fix
why can't you believe God can fix it
as something God can fix.

Why are you saying forgiveness is now a sin?

That is the opposite of what I u nderstand.

I understand the one unforgiveable sin
is blasphemy against the holy spirit
which is the sin of UNforgiveness.

That is quite ironic that you are saying
my willingness to forgive those who
denied Christ and refused to forgive
because I stlil trust God to reach them
through Christ Jesus and bring
forgiveness and transformation anyway
is a sin that would prevent me from entering
heaven.

Parture even your website says Christians
who have fallen are not denied heaven but
are not going to be in the higher process
with the others. So that doesn't mean these
Christians are going to hell; once you
receive salvation you finish the process
and are saved.

So you contradict yourself.
If you are saying it is "too late" and people
are going to hell, by the same token,
it is "too late" and once people receive
Christ grace and salvation they
are going to heaven and can't lose their salvation.
They just may lose their standing to be one
of the elect at the end.

Look at your website and see what it says
I told you already I agreed with how the websitep
said it, but not with how you say it which is different.

I can forgive the differences and flaws in how
we say things wrong because I know in spirit
we agree, and our words and even our
perceptions are not perfect enough to match that.

If I can forgive this because I know God will correct
anything important, then I am sure God can forgive it
who can correct these things.

Being forgiving and trusting in God
is not a sin to cause me to burn in hell.
Only if I do not forgive and I reject Christ,
but here I am welcoming reconciliation in Christ
not rejecting it. I forgive our differences and have
no problem addressing and resolving them in Christ.

So that is not going to send anyone to hell.

People who you claim are Christians who follow Buddha are not Christians. They are going to Hell with you. Buddhists are atheists and so they reject God the Son who came in the likeness of flesh Christ Jesus.

Also, Buddhists believe in Nirvana which is shutting their minds down like zombies, but that is against God's will, for God's will is to actively engage our senses. Buddhists did this because they were trying to cope with the suffering of starving and being so poor.

If they actively engaged themselves, spirit, soul and body, they would have been able to be more productive, and not LAZY FAT BASTARDS LIKE BUDDHA.

 

[emilynghiem]

Please point out the evidence, I see none. And I read the Minimal Facts Approach and it's not even remotely based on real facts.

The evidence was already given which you did not refute. I explained how the MFA works.

There was no proof in your post, just guys giving their opinions... Please point out one actual piece of real evidence and I will review it again.

Dear Taz
Parture believes in science and using naturalistic observation and means to show the spiritual healing
is real and consistent with science and natural laws.

Would you rather use that as proof that prayers in Jesus really cast out
demonic sickness to cure mental and physical illness as documented by doctors scientifically?

M.D. Rawlings also agreed but insisted this be done purely
by nonreligious scientists so there is no question of bias and skewing the process, results or interpretation afterwards.

I think koshergrl also agreed with the idea of proving and using spiritual healing
to show that these criminal and especially sexual addictions or abuses can be cured
and don't have to be assumed to be either natural or unchangeable, I can't remember what we discussed at the time.

sealybobo would you agree to scientific proof of spiritual healing
to show it is consistent and natural?

What matters is that emilynghiem is going to Hell because she is a universalist. Jesus was not a universalist. He only saves those accept Him and the way His design is set up people don't have free will if they don't have the free choice to eternally separate themselves from God.

Also Emily is not a Trinitarian, because a Trinitarian God will never go into Hell to extract people from it. It is sealed, permanently devoid of God's Triune presence.

What? maybe we are talking about two different things.
when people say Jesus saved them from hell, they
will testify they were trapped in hell and they were found and saved by Jesus.

If Jesus sacrifice atones for ALL sins
then it eventually resolves, redeems and transforms all
sins that would otherwise trap people in hell.

And I am a Trinitarian Universalist
I believe man is made in the image of God
and all man's laws reflect the same Trinity pattern of God.

We are body mind spirit.

We experience life as
individual
relationship or conscience connecting us with others
collective humanity or society

we are
physical
psychological
spiritual

Parture I think you are taking all the false teaching of other people
and you FEAR that I must agree with them when I don't.

I'm sorry I scared you this way.

As one of my friends said it, he said he wasn't afraid for my
salvation since he could see from knowing me in person
and working with me to help his girlfriend that I am a true believer in Christ.
But he was worried that the way I teach, other people will MISUNDERSTAND
and think it means they can keep doing or believing whatever
so THEIR salvation will not be guaranteed.

I think you are afraid that I am leading others astray
who will do what you do, and mistake what I am saying
to mean these other things that are false and reject Christ.

So if you want to make sure all people know and agree on
the correct teaching, let's go ahead and set up an online
website and rebuke where everyone can witness and reach agreement.

I would like to focus on spiritual healing
and have people organize research studies
to show that is true, natural, effective and consistent with science
and doesn't reject medicine either but works with it.

And you are welcome to use that same site to
tell it unto the church if you cannot find two or three
witnesses to establish the truth first.

Let's follow Matthew 18 15 through 20
And let's establish God's truth by agreement in Christ
I totally welcome this and do not reject it
but forgive all differences so they can be resolved.

 

[Parture]

The evidence was already given which you did not refute. I explained how the MFA works.

There was no proof in your post, just guys giving their opinions... Please point out one actual piece of real evidence and I will review it again.

Dear Taz
Parture believes in science and using naturalistic observation and means to show the spiritual healing
is real and consistent with science and natural laws.

Would you rather use that as proof that prayers in Jesus really cast out
demonic sickness to cure mental and physical illness as documented by doctors scientifically?

M.D. Rawlings also agreed but insisted this be done purely
by nonreligious scientists so there is no question of bias and skewing the process, results or interpretation afterwards.

I think koshergrl also agreed with the idea of proving and using spiritual healing
to show that these criminal and especially sexual addictions or abuses can be cured
and don't have to be assumed to be either natural or unchangeable, I can't remember what we discussed at the time.

sealybobo would you agree to scientific proof of spiritual healing
to show it is consistent and natural?

What matters is that emilynghiem is going to Hell because she is a universalist. Jesus was not a universalist. He only saves those accept Him and the way His design is set up people don't have free will if they don't have the free choice to eternally separate themselves from God.

Also Emily is not a Trinitarian, because a Trinitarian God will never go into Hell to extract people from it. It is sealed, permanently devoid of God's Triune presence.

What? maybe we are talking about two different things.
when people say Jesus saved them from hell, they
will testify they were trapped in hell and they were found and saved by Jesus.

If Jesus sacrifice atones for ALL sins
then it eventually resolves, redeems and transforms all
sins that would otherwise trap people in hell.

And I am a Trinitarian Universalist
I believe man is made in the image of God
and all man's laws reflect the same Trinity pattern of God.

We are body mind spirit.

We experience life as
individual
relationship or conscience connecting us with others
collective humanity or society

we are
physical
psychological
spiritual

Parture I think you are taking all the false teaching of other people
and you FEAR that I must agree with them when I don't.

I'm sorry I scared you this way.

As one of my friends said it, he said he wasn't afraid for my
salvation since he could see from knowing me in person
and working with me to help his girlfriend that I am a true believer in Christ.
But he was worried that the way I teach, other people will MISUNDERSTAND
and think it means they can keep doing or believing whatever
so THEIR salvation will not be guaranteed.

I think you are afraid that I am leading others astray
who will do what you do, and mistake what I am saying
to mean these other things that are false and reject Christ.

So if you want to make sure all people know and agree on
the correct teaching, let's go ahead and set up an online
website and rebuke where everyone can witness and reach agreement.

I would like to focus on spiritual healing
and have people organize research studies
to show that is true, natural, effective and consistent with science
and doesn't reject medicine either but works with it.

And you are welcome to use that same site to
tell it unto the church if you cannot find two or three
witnesses to establish the truth first.

Let's follow Matthew 18 15 through 20
And let's establish God's truth by agreement in Christ
I totally welcome this and do not reject it
but forgive all differences so they can be resolved.

Nobody is in Hell yet. Antichrist will be the first. Jesus saves from Hell is saved from going to Hell. You are going to Hell because you are a universalist whereas Jesus is not. At least admit you reject the Bible.

 

[Parture]

The writer of Hebrews says, “Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits” (Heb. 6:1-3).

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

 

[Parture]

Luke 12:4-5 Jesus spoke: “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.” But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!” This is afterwards. There would be nothing to fear if we don’t exist? There would be nothing to fear if there is no hell but only heaven. Jesus is making it clear there is something to fear after we are separated from the body. Mark 9:43-44 explains this further “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--“where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”THEIR worm not a worm, whatever this means it's not good.

 

[emilynghiem]

Parture
yes and no. Yes we are born under sin or what others may call karma, or some even recognize as racial conditioning in our spirit.
But no, our SPIRITUAL true being is made in the image of God. the sin or bad karma from unforgiven sin is stacked on top.
So the point of renouncing karma or sin is to remove these conditions that are material
and restore the spiritual laws and being that is one with God, and this is done through Christ.

both you and sealybobo are concerned with ripping away the material conditions imposed by manmade religion.
And trying to get to the default truth that is there underneath without all that conflicting mumbo jumbo piled on top.

that may not be the best proof for an atheist or nontheist.
they may respond better to replicating the same spiritual healing that Jesus
did and showing that the process is used today to cast out demonic sickness
and heal people of diseases that can be documented by science.

I also have shown people how universal the trinity and teachings are
by pointing out the parallels in all religions all based on the same trinity.
so again this shows man is made in the image of this same God
and it is universal, it is the blueprint in every set of laws or religions
that were "made by man independently" yet all reflect the same trinity.
so clearly these universal laws underneath all point to the same source.

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

That's because you have taken what other people said falsely about hell and universalism
and thought that is what I mean.

I am saying that all the paths WILL lead to Christ, so Christ brings salvation.

You are saying what other people teach falsely that other things "are the same as Christ"
which is NOT what I am saying. You can't tell on this forum, just like
when you post something here it doesn't sound the same as what I read on that website.

So our perceptions and expressions are not perfect
and you are getting the wrong impression. Sorry for this.

If I did believe and was saying the false things you worry about
like saying hell is not real or hell is annihilation
or saying other religions are the same as or can replace Christ
then I woudl agree with you tha tis false.

I correct these people all the time who get this wrong.

That's not what I am saying.

Christ Jesus IS unique as central and universal to all humanity and is the fulfillment of all the
laws and paths. All things are made new in Christ.

But I don' thave to reject Buddhism or reject Constitutional principles
to teach agreement in truth in Christ. I can use these laws to communicate
just like using science, or real life parables, or whatever helps people to understand.
Any natural laws are governed by Divine Justice which Jesus represents uniquely.
So however people communicate, whether talking about the laws of
gravity, physics, cause and effect or karma, restorative or retributive justice,
Jesus as Justice and God's truth is universal regardless of the laws
man uses to express these truths found in nature.

Emily is not a Christian, she is a universalist so she is going to Hell according to the Bible.

What?
Where in the Bible does it say that everyone but universalists are saved by grace?

If you can find two or three witnesses to agree with you that's fine.
Most people I know will say as long as receive Jesus and are saved by Grace
then something this small, like believing that liberals are better at enforcing Constitutional principles
than conservatives are, is not enough to cause someone to go to hell.

Now if i were to NOT FORGIVE people who disagree, even if I am right or wrong etc,
then the division caused by unforgiveness would cause me not to enter heaven.
But as long as I FORGIVE our differences, even if I am wrong and you are right
or you are right and I am wrong, then this is not a major issue that prevents someone from entering heaven.

Rejecting Christ and not forgiving may prevent it,
but not disagreements over whether God can still save all souls in Christ Jesus
over time and space.

If you want, I can call in elders of every denomination to discuss this
until a consensus is reached in Christ.

We are supposed to call in two or three witnesses to establsh truth.

so far you have a longer list of people you have accused similar as you accuse me.

So I am guessing at least half this problem is you not forgiving something,
like not forgiving the differences between how Buddha gave the natural laws
and how Moses gave them th rough the Bible.

I can forgive those differences and see God created gentiles to be nontheistic on purpose.
So that does not have to reject Christ.

You automatically assume that all Buddha's teachings or all followings reject Christ
and I have found otherwise. I find many Christians who use Buddhist tteachings
to help them love God with their full MINDS because Buddhism teaches how to let go
of material conditions clouding the mind, so it helps with the First Commandment.

I find the teachings of Buddhism to be consistent with God's laws of nature
and spiritual cause and effect, and these are fulfiled in Christ equally
as the church laws given by Moses.

So sure, if you want to declare me or Buddha a false prophet
I can show you where the teachings point to and prepare people
for receiving Christ in the end times to finish the later stages
and are not necessarily for rejecting Christ or dividing from Christianity as you FEAR.

Your FEAR is greater than your FAITH.
You FEAR Buddhism or me as teaching something
so false you FEAR it is going against Christ.

That's your FEAR talking and that is not what
i am saying at all.

the stages of Salvation
3. first we receive a child of God who
comes in the name of the Lord
and by receiving each other as children
of God we receive Jesus
2. anyone who receives Jesus
receives the Father also
1. Anyone who calls upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved

And the Bible says that all tongues shall
confess, so all the tongues and tribes
shall receive the Lord and bring
salvation to all humanity in Christ Jesus.

I don't deny this at all.
I may not be perfect in how I say it
but speaking imperfectly is not enough
to deny entrance into heaven or
none of us wouldgo there.

Only Christ Jesus is perfection
embodied in man.

The rest of us rely on forgiveness
to be saved, and I do believe and
receive this.

If you cannot forgive something faulty
in how I am saying this, tha tis your
own unforgiveness and fear
and that is for you to work through
as part of your own salvation.

I forgive this difference regardelss who
is right or wrong, so it should not
prevent anyone from entering into heaven.

If I can forgive it as something God can fix
why can't you believe God can fix it
as something God can fix.

Why are you saying forgiveness is now a sin?

That is the opposite of what I u nderstand.

I understand the one unforgiveable sin
is blasphemy against the holy spirit
which is the sin of UNforgiveness.

That is quite ironic that you are saying
my willingness to forgive those who
denied Christ and refused to forgive
because I stlil trust God to reach them
through Christ Jesus and bring
forgiveness and transformation anyway
is a sin that would prevent me from entering
heaven.

Parture even your website says Christians
who have fallen are not denied heaven but
are not going to be in the higher process
with the others. So that doesn't mean these
Christians are going to hell; once you
receive salvation you finish the process
and are saved.

So you contradict yourself.
If you are saying it is "too late" and people
are going to hell, by the same token,
it is "too late" and once people receive
Christ grace and salvation they
are going to heaven and can't lose their salvation.
They just may lose their standing to be one
of the elect at the end.

Look at your website and see what it says
I told you already I agreed with how the websitep
said it, but not with how you say it which is different.

I can forgive the differences and flaws in how
we say things wrong because I know in spirit
we agree, and our words and even our
perceptions are not perfect enough to match that.

If I can forgive this because I know God will correct
anything important, then I am sure God can forgive it
who can correct these things.

Being forgiving and trusting in God
is not a sin to cause me to burn in hell.
Only if I do not forgive and I reject Christ,
but here I am welcoming reconciliation in Christ
not rejecting it. I forgive our differences and have
no problem addressing and resolving them in Christ.

So that is not going to send anyone to hell.

People who you claim are Christians who follow Buddha are not Christians. They are going to Hell with you. Buddhists are atheists and so they reject God the Son who came in the likeness of flesh Christ Jesus.

Also, Buddhists believe in Nirvana which is shutting their minds down like zombies, but that is against God's will, for God's will is to actively engage our senses. Buddhists did this because they were trying to cope with the suffering of starving and being so poor.

If they actively engaged themselves, spirit, soul and body, they would have been able to be more productive, and not LAZY FAT BASTARDS LIKE BUDDHA.

1. It is true there are many people who teach Buddhism in wrongful ways.
You provide a good example here, which I would agree is false if that is what people are teaching.
Don't disagree with you there at all.

2. I also agree that Buddhists who reject God and Christ are false,
and this even contradicts Buddhism which is not to cling to false beliefs.
So clearly such Buddhists are false if they cannot even follow their own beliefs.
Clearly that is problematic and wrongful.

3. The Buddhists who receive and accept understanding of God and Christ
where they see Buddha as teaching similarly to Moses (where people do not
worship Moses as a God or any kind of replacement for God or Jesus),
there is no contradiction there as you FEAR

4. Whatever you are saying about Buddha as fat and lazy
is a material issue and not about spiritual wisdom that Buddha shared
that has helped people depart from the false teachings about
castes and Hinduism that were practiced at the time he was teaching.
At that time his job was to teach people to let go of these past religious
doctrines in order to open their minds to receive truth.

So that same process of letting go of false teachings
and material attachments in order to receive higher wisdom and truth
is consistent with agreeing to let go of our material manmade
conditions.

So that is a key step in receiving Christ by letting go of material attachments.

Christ and Christianity came later
because the first step is to let go of false religion as Buddha was teaching
to let go of castes and renounce karma.

He even said not to believe him, but to stay open to truth
and changing perceptions of life that were impermanent.

So if you followed Buddha's advice you would
depart from any false teaching or beliefs,
and would only be open to receive truth.

So this is consistent with denouncing material
and false things so that we receive understanding of God
or universal truth, including the knowledge and understanding of Christ
as part of that process.

Letting go comes first and receiving comes later.
So this is consistent with Christianity that
forgiveness comes first and then establishing the truth follows.

 

[Parture]

Notice the Rich Man knew he would be in Hell forever.

 

[Parture]

All I care to know about you is that you are going to Hell, because you are a universalist. No other faith agrees with Christianity. Your flesh attempts to mingle them, but God does not contradict Himself.

That's because you have taken what other people said falsely about hell and universalism
and thought that is what I mean.

I am saying that all the paths WILL lead to Christ, so Christ brings salvation.

You are saying what other people teach falsely that other things "are the same as Christ"
which is NOT what I am saying. You can't tell on this forum, just like
when you post something here it doesn't sound the same as what I read on that website.

So our perceptions and expressions are not perfect
and you are getting the wrong impression. Sorry for this.

If I did believe and was saying the false things you worry about
like saying hell is not real or hell is annihilation
or saying other religions are the same as or can replace Christ
then I woudl agree with you tha tis false.

I correct these people all the time who get this wrong.

That's not what I am saying.

Christ Jesus IS unique as central and universal to all humanity and is the fulfillment of all the
laws and paths. All things are made new in Christ.

But I don' thave to reject Buddhism or reject Constitutional principles
to teach agreement in truth in Christ. I can use these laws to communicate
just like using science, or real life parables, or whatever helps people to understand.
Any natural laws are governed by Divine Justice which Jesus represents uniquely.
So however people communicate, whether talking about the laws of
gravity, physics, cause and effect or karma, restorative or retributive justice,
Jesus as Justice and God's truth is universal regardless of the laws
man uses to express these truths found in nature.

Emily is not a Christian, she is a universalist so she is going to Hell according to the Bible.

What?
Where in the Bible does it say that everyone but universalists are saved by grace?

If you can find two or three witnesses to agree with you that's fine.
Most people I know will say as long as receive Jesus and are saved by Grace
then something this small, like believing that liberals are better at enforcing Constitutional principles
than conservatives are, is not enough to cause someone to go to hell.

Now if i were to NOT FORGIVE people who disagree, even if I am right or wrong etc,
then the division caused by unforgiveness would cause me not to enter heaven.
But as long as I FORGIVE our differences, even if I am wrong and you are right
or you are right and I am wrong, then this is not a major issue that prevents someone from entering heaven.

Rejecting Christ and not forgiving may prevent it,
but not disagreements over whether God can still save all souls in Christ Jesus
over time and space.

If you want, I can call in elders of every denomination to discuss this
until a consensus is reached in Christ.

We are supposed to call in two or three witnesses to establsh truth.

so far you have a longer list of people you have accused similar as you accuse me.

So I am guessing at least half this problem is you not forgiving something,
like not forgiving the differences between how Buddha gave the natural laws
and how Moses gave them th rough the Bible.

I can forgive those differences and see God created gentiles to be nontheistic on purpose.
So that does not have to reject Christ.

You automatically assume that all Buddha's teachings or all followings reject Christ
and I have found otherwise. I find many Christians who use Buddhist tteachings
to help them love God with their full MINDS because Buddhism teaches how to let go
of material conditions clouding the mind, so it helps with the First Commandment.

I find the teachings of Buddhism to be consistent with God's laws of nature
and spiritual cause and effect, and these are fulfiled in Christ equally
as the church laws given by Moses.

So sure, if you want to declare me or Buddha a false prophet
I can show you where the teachings point to and prepare people
for receiving Christ in the end times to finish the later stages
and are not necessarily for rejecting Christ or dividing from Christianity as you FEAR.

Your FEAR is greater than your FAITH.
You FEAR Buddhism or me as teaching something
so false you FEAR it is going against Christ.

That's your FEAR talking and that is not what
i am saying at all.

the stages of Salvation
3. first we receive a child of God who
comes in the name of the Lord
and by receiving each other as children
of God we receive Jesus
2. anyone who receives Jesus
receives the Father also
1. Anyone who calls upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved

And the Bible says that all tongues shall
confess, so all the tongues and tribes
shall receive the Lord and bring
salvation to all humanity in Christ Jesus.

I don't deny this at all.
I may not be perfect in how I say it
but speaking imperfectly is not enough
to deny entrance into heaven or
none of us wouldgo there.

Only Christ Jesus is perfection
embodied in man.

The rest of us rely on forgiveness
to be saved, and I do believe and
receive this.

If you cannot forgive something faulty
in how I am saying this, tha tis your
own unforgiveness and fear
and that is for you to work through
as part of your own salvation.

I forgive this difference regardelss who
is right or wrong, so it should not
prevent anyone from entering into heaven.

If I can forgive it as something God can fix
why can't you believe God can fix it
as something God can fix.

Why are you saying forgiveness is now a sin?

That is the opposite of what I u nderstand.

I understand the one unforgiveable sin
is blasphemy against the holy spirit
which is the sin of UNforgiveness.

That is quite ironic that you are saying
my willingness to forgive those who
denied Christ and refused to forgive
because I stlil trust God to reach them
through Christ Jesus and bring
forgiveness and transformation anyway
is a sin that would prevent me from entering
heaven.

Parture even your website says Christians
who have fallen are not denied heaven but
are not going to be in the higher process
with the others. So that doesn't mean these
Christians are going to hell; once you
receive salvation you finish the process
and are saved.

So you contradict yourself.
If you are saying it is "too late" and people
are going to hell, by the same token,
it is "too late" and once people receive
Christ grace and salvation they
are going to heaven and can't lose their salvation.
They just may lose their standing to be one
of the elect at the end.

Look at your website and see what it says
I told you already I agreed with how the websitep
said it, but not with how you say it which is different.

I can forgive the differences and flaws in how
we say things wrong because I know in spirit
we agree, and our words and even our
perceptions are not perfect enough to match that.

If I can forgive this because I know God will correct
anything important, then I am sure God can forgive it
who can correct these things.

Being forgiving and trusting in God
is not a sin to cause me to burn in hell.
Only if I do not forgive and I reject Christ,
but here I am welcoming reconciliation in Christ
not rejecting it. I forgive our differences and have
no problem addressing and resolving them in Christ.

So that is not going to send anyone to hell.

People who you claim are Christians who follow Buddha are not Christians. They are going to Hell with you. Buddhists are atheists and so they reject God the Son who came in the likeness of flesh Christ Jesus.

Also, Buddhists believe in Nirvana which is shutting their minds down like zombies, but that is against God's will, for God's will is to actively engage our senses. Buddhists did this because they were trying to cope with the suffering of starving and being so poor.

If they actively engaged themselves, spirit, soul and body, they would have been able to be more productive, and not LAZY FAT BASTARDS LIKE BUDDHA.

1. It is true there are many people who teach Buddhism in wrongful ways.
You provide a good example here, which I would agree is false if that is what people are teaching.
Don't disagree with you there at all.

2. I also agree that Buddhists who reject God and Christ are false,
and this even contradicts Buddhism which is not to cling to false beliefs.
So clearly such Buddhists are false if they cannot even follow their own beliefs.
Clearly that is problematic and wrongful.

3. The Buddhists who receive and accept understanding of God and Christ
where they see Buddha as teaching similarly to Moses (where people do not
worship Moses as a God or any kind of replacement for God or Jesus),
there is no contradiction there as you FEAR

4. Whatever you are saying about Buddha as fat and lazy
is a material issue and not about spiritual wisdom that Buddha shared
that has helped people depart from the false teachings about
castes and Hinduism that were practiced at the time he was teaching.
At that time his job was to teach people to let go of these past religious
doctrines in order to open their minds to receive truth.

So that same process of letting go of false teachings
and material attachments in order to receive higher wisdom and truth
is consistent with agreeing to let go of our material manmade
conditions.

So that is a key step in receiving Christ by letting go of material attachments.

Christ and Christianity came later
because the first step is to let go of false religion as Buddha was teaching
to let go of castes and renounce karma.

He even said not to believe him, but to stay open to truth
and changing perceptions of life that were impermanent.

So if you followed Buddha's advice you would
depart from any false teaching or beliefs,
and would only be open to receive truth.

So this is consistent with denouncing material
and false things so that we receive understanding of God
or universal truth, including the knowledge and understanding of Christ
as part of that process.

Letting go comes first and receiving comes later.
So this is consistent with Christianity that
forgiveness comes first and then establishing the truth follows.

The Great Divorce
C.S Lewis discusses the possibility of repenting after death in his fictional book "The Great Divorce"[2]. In his story, people from hell are allowed to visit heaven, and people from heaven can even try to convince them to repent and stay in heaven. But in the end nearly all the people from hell absolutely hate heaven, and some even demand to take their loved ones from heaven to hell so they can be together in hell instead!

If a person does not love Jesus with all their heart, heaven would be an unbearable place to live, and they may well prefer hell, as strange as it seems. Can you imagine an eternity of hearing people only talk about Jesus, and how great He is, and how loving He is, etc. if you personally wanted nothing to do with Him? If a person prefers their sins and doesn't want to follow Jesus now, why would that change in the afterlife? Why would God let someone into heaven who only wants comfort and doesn't actually love Jesus?

 

[Parture]

Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.(2 Thessalonians 1:9)

 

[Parture]

But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever. (John 3:36)

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25.46).

 

[Parture]

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev. 20.10).

 

[emilynghiem]

There was no proof in your post, just guys giving their opinions... Please point out one actual piece of real evidence and I will review it again.

Dear Taz
Parture believes in science and using naturalistic observation and means to show the spiritual healing
is real and consistent with science and natural laws.

Would you rather use that as proof that prayers in Jesus really cast out
demonic sickness to cure mental and physical illness as documented by doctors scientifically?

M.D. Rawlings also agreed but insisted this be done purely
by nonreligious scientists so there is no question of bias and skewing the process, results or interpretation afterwards.

I think koshergrl also agreed with the idea of proving and using spiritual healing
to show that these criminal and especially sexual addictions or abuses can be cured
and don't have to be assumed to be either natural or unchangeable, I can't remember what we discussed at the time.

sealybobo would you agree to scientific proof of spiritual healing
to show it is consistent and natural?

What matters is that emilynghiem is going to Hell because she is a universalist. Jesus was not a universalist. He only saves those accept Him and the way His design is set up people don't have free will if they don't have the free choice to eternally separate themselves from God.

Also Emily is not a Trinitarian, because a Trinitarian God will never go into Hell to extract people from it. It is sealed, permanently devoid of God's Triune presence.

What? maybe we are talking about two different things.
when people say Jesus saved them from hell, they
will testify they were trapped in hell and they were found and saved by Jesus.

If Jesus sacrifice atones for ALL sins
then it eventually resolves, redeems and transforms all
sins that would otherwise trap people in hell.

And I am a Trinitarian Universalist
I believe man is made in the image of God
and all man's laws reflect the same Trinity pattern of God.

We are body mind spirit.

We experience life as
individual
relationship or conscience connecting us with others
collective humanity or society

we are
physical
psychological
spiritual

Parture I think you are taking all the false teaching of other people
and you FEAR that I must agree with them when I don't.

I'm sorry I scared you this way.

As one of my friends said it, he said he wasn't afraid for my
salvation since he could see from knowing me in person
and working with me to help his girlfriend that I am a true believer in Christ.
But he was worried that the way I teach, other people will MISUNDERSTAND
and think it means they can keep doing or believing whatever
so THEIR salvation will not be guaranteed.

I think you are afraid that I am leading others astray
who will do what you do, and mistake what I am saying
to mean these other things that are false and reject Christ.

So if you want to make sure all people know and agree on
the correct teaching, let's go ahead and set up an online
website and rebuke where everyone can witness and reach agreement.

I would like to focus on spiritual healing
and have people organize research studies
to show that is true, natural, effective and consistent with science
and doesn't reject medicine either but works with it.

And you are welcome to use that same site to
tell it unto the church if you cannot find two or three
witnesses to establish the truth first.

Let's follow Matthew 18 15 through 20
And let's establish God's truth by agreement in Christ
I totally welcome this and do not reject it
but forgive all differences so they can be resolved.

Nobody is in Hell yet. Antichrist will be the first. Jesus saves from Hell is saved from going to Hell. You are going to Hell because you are a universalist whereas Jesus is not. At least admit you reject the Bible.

Jesus came to save all souls. Not just the ones who aren't universalists.

Yes I am beginning to agree with you that I go through hell all the time
with people like you who insist on putting me through that. Sure.

No I don't reject the Bible but find it is universally true.
You fear I am saying something false that I don't believe in.

When I see what you say about Buddhism
there is a similar bias and assumption going on.
This can be corrected in Christ and is not a reason for anyone to go to hell
over something that will be easily corrected.

As for antichrist I believe the jihadist terrorism
is a manifestation of retribution and antichrist.
there is not forgiveness there. so that causes
endless war and hellish suffering. Hell is like that.

Here you and I are both Christian believers
and have an issue between us over who is speaking
wrongly or interpreting falsely. Because we both
forgive in Christ Jesus this can and will be corrected.
So nobody is going to hell over that which we can
correct as fellow believers in Christ. Quite the opposite.

neither you nor I are being retributive or hold any ill will
toward each other. You are sincerely concerned for my
salvation and that of others who may be misled by how I teach this.
So your concern and spirit is in Christ Jesus and is based on
seeking truth, not revenge or punishment on others.

The worst ill will I see is when you demean Buddha
or you dismiss koshergrl or others as vain or not worth your respect.

this can be corrected also, because I see what you
are objecting to which is founded. it's just that not
all Buddha's teachings or practictioners are doing the
wrong things you object to which I also object to as wrong.

Even Buddha would say it is wrong to reject truth
while holding on to false beliefs for material convenience.

Because we are believers in Christ then these
things will find correction. So I ask how do we
go about setting up a rebuke to address these
same points where all the church can benefit from
the discussion and corrections establishing God's truth.