Zone1 Jesus' CONCEPTION (not birth) during Hanukkah / Christmas

[shimon]

Not a try. These are documented facts. Your reaction speaks volumes.

Whatever you say Ding still using a rowboat in Houston or have the floods subsided and you can get out on the golf course and try to improve your game or have you lost your touch…

 

[ding]

Nice try the letter J has only been around for a few hundred years when it was added to the alphabet and we have much evidence of pious fraud but hey you believe( bel the snakes lie to Eve) what you like…

And the there’s Pliny the Younger…

Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.[8] Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.[9]

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.[10]

This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, "as to a god", as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."[11] If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians "bound themselves by a solemn oath" not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the "love feast."[12] This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely "food of an ordinary and innocent kind". They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."[13] The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Do any other ancient documents help to confirm the trustworthiness of the New Testament?

www.bethinking.org

 

[ding]

Whatever you say Ding still using a rowboat in Houston or have the floods subsided and you can get out on the golf course and try to improve your game or have you lost your touch…

Early Christians wrote about Jesus and so did non-Christians. Deal with it.

 

[ding]

Spitting is not a good thing to be accused of as a young boy of Jewish descent was accused of doing this to a catholic priest in Prague and the fine citizens there had a pogram in which they slaughtered many a Jewish person these on going attacks continued for many a year in many a place to many a Jewish person it was fine example of Christian acceptance and kindheartedness… Considering that in your gospels Jesus spat in the eye of a blind person and cured him of his blindness or so the tales go… Spit should not be so frowned on would you not say….hmmmm…

Life isn’t fair. Expect to make sacrifices. I’m making one now having to deal with your truculent behavior.

 

[shimon]

And the there’s Pliny the Younger…

Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.[8] Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.[9]

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:


This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, "as to a god", as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."[11] If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians "bound themselves by a solemn oath" not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the "love feast."[12] This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely "food of an ordinary and innocent kind". They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."[13] The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Do any other ancient documents help to confirm the trustworthiness of the New Testament?

www.bethinking.org

Here we can cut and paste all day long Ding…I borrowed this from someone who looked into it...Except for Tertullian, the epistolary exchange between Pliny and Trajan is not mentioned by any second century Christian writer, though it could have been readily at hand.

2. Even more curious: All the later Church Fathers depend on Tertullian’s citations. Not one of them (including Jerome, Prosper of Acquitaine, Frechulf Lexovensis, etc.) possessed his own edition of these letters. Jerome even writes: “Thus Tertullian cites in his Apologeticum” (Tertullianus refert in Apologetico).

3. The question now arises regarding the reliability of Tertullian’s ‘witnesses.’ Did Tertullian actually see the two letters under consideration? Were they actually on his desk? Or do his ‘citations’ merely reflect his spontaneous invention [seine spontane Erfindung]?

The suspicion is not so absurd. I have learned that Tertullian spouts a lot of nonsense. There is scarcely another Church Father as suspicious. He claims to know not only the epistolary exchange between Trajan and Pliny, but also a series of other documents for whose authenticity hardly any historian will vouch—such as a proof for the resurrection of Christ, which only the most fundamentalist of Christians will approve. And that resurrection-proof originated from no less a personage than Pontius Pilate, who “being already a Christian in his heart, informed the then Caesar Tiberius about Christ” (Apol. 21.24). In Book IV of his Against Marcion (4.7), Tertullian seeks to show that Christ did not come down from heaven (as Marcion maintained) but was born on earth. The Church Father goes on to describe the registration of Jesus in the census as “most reliable testimony” (testem fidelissimum). These examples are already sufficient to show of what cloth Tertullian is made. As a rule, his citing of a text demonstrates neither that he correctly cites nor that he has read the text—or even that it exists. [The information in this paragraph is well taken.—R.S.]

4. Most remarkable, however, is the following: Differences arise when comparing Tertullian’s received statements with those of Jerome and later Church Fathers. In describing the accusations against the Christians, Jerome mentions furta (theft) and latrocinia (robbery)—two words lacking in Tertullian’s account. Apparently, Tertullian’s passage underwent some change and Jerome added the two words furta and latrocinia.

But why—and this is the deciding question—do these two accusations of furta and latrocinia even appear in the letter of Pliny to Trajan? 
How was it possible? And how could Jerome have known the original content of the passage? Did Jerome divine the original wording of Pliny’s epistle under the influence of the Holy Ghost? That would be rather difficult to believe—least of all if one adopts a scholarly approach to the matter.

The Church Father [Jerome] staunchly claimed that it was from Tertullian that he received his information regarding the exchange of letters between Pliny and Trajan. At the same time Jerome clearly did not have access to a proprietary copy of the epistolary exchange from which he could have gained his knowledge.

Only one reasonable solution to the puzzle exists. The small discrepancy [the additional two words furta and latrocinia in Jerome’s reading] can only be an indication that the two epistles were not authentic documents from the first half of the second century. They were later Christian texts whose author looked back not only on Tertullian, but also on Jerome and subsequent Church Fathers.

Paradoxically enough, it is worth noting that the epistle of Pliny did not precede its synopsis and its reporters but followed them and, so to say, [what should have been] an endpoint signaled a development that began with Tertullian, a development during which ever new variations and paraphrases came to be cited—not variations on Pliny’s letter, but variations on Tertullian’s description.

Additional details confirm this supposition—in an apparent slip of the pen, for example, from quasi to et. In the letter, Pliny states that the Christians venerate Christ in their hymn “as if” (quasi) he were a God. According to Tertullian they venerate Christ “and” (et) God. According to Jerome they venerate Christ “as” (ut) God. It is clear that the development could only have been from et to the (similarly written) ut, and from there to the (similar in meaning to ut) quasi. Thus: et > ut > quasi and not quasi > et > ut.

[Detering continues:] What followed was a closer study of the literary history of the 10th book of the Pliny letters, in which the ‘Christian’ epistles appear. The result not only confirmed the verdict of forgery [Unechtheit] but made that confirmation a clear certainty [festen Gewissheit]. Not only did the two ‘Christian’ letters prove to be later forgeries, but the whole tenth book of the Pliny-Trajan correspondence was under suspicion of forgery. This suspicion is actually not new—it was enunciated by scholarly contemporaries at the time the [collected] correspondence first appeared. [When?]

The single existing manuscript [of book 10 of the letters] was completely unknown before the sixteenth century. It was brought forward towards the beginning of that century by the alert Dominican monk, engineer, and antiquarian Fra Giocondo [c. 1433-1515 CE], only to quickly disappear again into obscurity. It is now considered lost. In fact, it appears to never have existed.

Whoever wishes to learn more about the adventurous history of the two “Christian epistles”—as well as about other “classical” witnesses to the existence of Jesus—will find copious additional information in my book, Falsche Zeugen: Ausserchristliche Jesuszeugnisse auf dem Prüfstand [False Witnesses: Extra-Christian Witnesses to Jesus Put on Trial]. It should appear in September 2011 from Alibri-Verlag.

Originally, I intended the book to be an introduction to a book about Jesus. During the writing, however, it developed into a full-blown monograph of its own. It is, in fact, the only book from a German theologian that is exclusively concerned with the question of witnesses to Jesus. In contrast to a few Anglo-Saxon precursors, I have arrived at a negative verdict in all six cases where classical witnesses [to Jesus] are concerned.

In the final analysis, with the aid of this information comes the sobering conclusion that neither the historical figure ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ nor the existence of early Christianity in the first century CE is demonstrable. Hence, not only ‘Adieu Pliny,’ but ‘Adieu Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Mara bar serapion, and Thallus’!

Perhaps also: Adieu Jesus? My book “False Witnesses” will offer an answer.So Ding looks like more pious fraud

​

 

[shimon]

Early Christians wrote about Jesus and so did non-Christians. Deal with it.

Hardly…

 

[ding]

Here we can cut and paste all day long Ding…I borrowed this from someone who looked into it...Except for Tertullian, the epistolary exchange between Pliny and Trajan is not mentioned by any second century Christian writer, though it could have been readily at hand.

2. Even more curious: All the later Church Fathers depend on Tertullian’s citations. Not one of them (including Jerome, Prosper of Acquitaine, Frechulf Lexovensis, etc.) possessed his own edition of these letters. Jerome even writes: “Thus Tertullian cites in his Apologeticum” (Tertullianus refert in Apologetico).

3. The question now arises regarding the reliability of Tertullian’s ‘witnesses.’ Did Tertullian actually see the two letters under consideration? Were they actually on his desk? Or do his ‘citations’ merely reflect his spontaneous invention [seine spontane Erfindung]?

The suspicion is not so absurd. I have learned that Tertullian spouts a lot of nonsense. There is scarcely another Church Father as suspicious. He claims to know not only the epistolary exchange between Trajan and Pliny, but also a series of other documents for whose authenticity hardly any historian will vouch—such as a proof for the resurrection of Christ, which only the most fundamentalist of Christians will approve. And that resurrection-proof originated from no less a personage than Pontius Pilate, who “being already a Christian in his heart, informed the then Caesar Tiberius about Christ” (Apol. 21.24). In Book IV of his Against Marcion (4.7), Tertullian seeks to show that Christ did not come down from heaven (as Marcion maintained) but was born on earth. The Church Father goes on to describe the registration of Jesus in the census as “most reliable testimony” (testem fidelissimum). These examples are already sufficient to show of what cloth Tertullian is made. As a rule, his citing of a text demonstrates neither that he correctly cites nor that he has read the text—or even that it exists. [The information in this paragraph is well taken.—R.S.]

4. Most remarkable, however, is the following: Differences arise when comparing Tertullian’s received statements with those of Jerome and later Church Fathers. In describing the accusations against the Christians, Jerome mentions furta (theft) and latrocinia (robbery)—two words lacking in Tertullian’s account. Apparently, Tertullian’s passage underwent some change and Jerome added the two words furta and latrocinia.

But why—and this is the deciding question—do these two accusations of furta and latrocinia even appear in the letter of Pliny to Trajan? 
How was it possible? And how could Jerome have known the original content of the passage? Did Jerome divine the original wording of Pliny’s epistle under the influence of the Holy Ghost? That would be rather difficult to believe—least of all if one adopts a scholarly approach to the matter.

The Church Father [Jerome] staunchly claimed that it was from Tertullian that he received his information regarding the exchange of letters between Pliny and Trajan. At the same time Jerome clearly did not have access to a proprietary copy of the epistolary exchange from which he could have gained his knowledge.

Only one reasonable solution to the puzzle exists. The small discrepancy [the additional two words furta and latrocinia in Jerome’s reading] can only be an indication that the two epistles were not authentic documents from the first half of the second century. They were later Christian texts whose author looked back not only on Tertullian, but also on Jerome and subsequent Church Fathers.

Paradoxically enough, it is worth noting that the epistle of Pliny did not precede its synopsis and its reporters but followed them and, so to say, [what should have been] an endpoint signaled a development that began with Tertullian, a development during which ever new variations and paraphrases came to be cited—not variations on Pliny’s letter, but variations on Tertullian’s description.

Additional details confirm this supposition—in an apparent slip of the pen, for example, from quasi to et. In the letter, Pliny states that the Christians venerate Christ in their hymn “as if” (quasi) he were a God. According to Tertullian they venerate Christ “and” (et) God. According to Jerome they venerate Christ “as” (ut) God. It is clear that the development could only have been from et to the (similarly written) ut, and from there to the (similar in meaning to ut) quasi. Thus: et > ut > quasi and not quasi > et > ut.

[Detering continues:] What followed was a closer study of the literary history of the 10th book of the Pliny letters, in which the ‘Christian’ epistles appear. The result not only confirmed the verdict of forgery [Unechtheit] but made that confirmation a clear certainty [festen Gewissheit]. Not only did the two ‘Christian’ letters prove to be later forgeries, but the whole tenth book of the Pliny-Trajan correspondence was under suspicion of forgery. This suspicion is actually not new—it was enunciated by scholarly contemporaries at the time the [collected] correspondence first appeared. [When?]

The single existing manuscript [of book 10 of the letters] was completely unknown before the sixteenth century. It was brought forward towards the beginning of that century by the alert Dominican monk, engineer, and antiquarian Fra Giocondo [c. 1433-1515 CE], only to quickly disappear again into obscurity. It is now considered lost. In fact, it appears to never have existed.

Whoever wishes to learn more about the adventurous history of the two “Christian epistles”—as well as about other “classical” witnesses to the existence of Jesus—will find copious additional information in my book, Falsche Zeugen: Ausserchristliche Jesuszeugnisse auf dem Prüfstand [False Witnesses: Extra-Christian Witnesses to Jesus Put on Trial]. It should appear in September 2011 from Alibri-Verlag.

Originally, I intended the book to be an introduction to a book about Jesus. During the writing, however, it developed into a full-blown monograph of its own. It is, in fact, the only book from a German theologian that is exclusively concerned with the question of witnesses to Jesus. In contrast to a few Anglo-Saxon precursors, I have arrived at a negative verdict in all six cases where classical witnesses [to Jesus] are concerned.

In the final analysis, with the aid of this information comes the sobering conclusion that neither the historical figure ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ nor the existence of early Christianity in the first century CE is demonstrable. Hence, not only ‘Adieu Pliny,’ but ‘Adieu Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Mara bar serapion, and Thallus’!

Perhaps also: Adieu Jesus? My book “False Witnesses” will offer an answer.So Ding looks like more pious fraud

​

Tacitus, Josephus and Pliny the Younger all wrote about Jesus and confirmed what had been written about him.

It’s all been well documented. And your reaction tells me these facts threaten your worldview.

 

[ding]

Hardly…

It threatens you.

 

[ding]

Hardly…

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

The Christians ... worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[27]

 

[BreezeWood]

.
its foolish to deny the events of the 1st century ...

jesus was an itinerant made famous in the 4th century, the jews should be grateful for the ridiculous christian religion than those true events the repudiation of judaism their false commandments, hereditary idolatry et all and the liberation theology, self determination those people w/ jesus gave their lives for.

 

[abu afak]

Whatever you say Ding still using a rowboat in Houston or have the floods subsided and you can get out on the golf course and try to improve your game or have you lost your touch…

What "Game," ding is a caddy, but spends Sundays in church licking his pulpit.
`

 

[Meriweather]

Spitting is not a good thing to be accused of as a young boy of Jewish descent was accused of doing this to a catholic priest in Prague and the fine citizens there had a pogram in which they slaughtered many a Jewish person these on going attacks continued for many a year in many a place to many a Jewish person it was fine example of Christian acceptance and kindheartedness… Considering that in your gospels Jesus spat in the eye of a blind person and cured him of his blindness or so the tales go… Spit should not be so frowned on would you not say….hmmmm…

We live in an imperfect world...every generation.

"Desolate Daughter Babylon, you shall be destroyed,
blessed the one who pays you back what you have done us!
Blessed the one who seizes your little ones and smashes them against the rock." (Psalm 137:8-9)

Samaria shall expiate her guilt, for she has rebelled against her her God.
They shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed to pieces,
their expectant mothers shall be ripped open. (Hosea 14:1)

Mud can be found against every religion, every government, every business, every person. Because all of us can throw mud, should we throw mud? Because we can be cruel and insulting, should we be cruel and insulting?

Medieval relations with Jews was more complicated than the program in Prague, and you probably know this. Jews and their neighbors usually got along quite well, and there are indications that religious differences weren't the main problem. The Church, as a whole, was not involved in these programs. They were local in nature, and many had to do with social differences and business competitions. But, you probably know that, just as you know under some priests, bishops, and popes, there was, indeed, examples of kindness and support. The mud you want to find to sling centuries later, can be traced to individual hostilities (yes, some between priests, bishops, popes) that had little to do with religion and more to do with social relationships and business matters.

If you are asserting Jews are perfect and all Christians imperfect, you are half-right. Christians are imperfect. We are not born with perfect faith, perfect love--we are in all stages of growth in our faith and in our love. The example I often use is that 1/12 of Jesus' closest friends was not a good example of either loyalty to a friend or of his teachings. This means today, in our world, there are just over 219 million Christians (out of 2.63 billion) Christians to be cautious of. World-wide there are just under 16 million Jews. Think about it. We are an imperfect people living in an imperfect world. And even the vast majority (about two billion) of very good Christians still have faults. Do you believe that is reason enough to nourish hatred towards Christians/non-Jews and to sling mud and insults?

Rudyard Kipling advised if you are hated, don't give in to hating. In the same way, if you are insulted, don't give in to insults; if mud is thrown at you, don't give in to throwing mud yourself. You have a beautiful faith, so live it. If Christians tell you what Jewish texts "really" mean, quietly speak your truth. Just because some Christians are losing their heads, doesn't mean you have to lose yours too. (Again, a nod to Rudyard Kipling, a man of no specific faith, but of all faiths.)


.

 

[Meriweather]

Here we can cut and paste all day long

Sure, it is interesting history. It's failing is that it does not get to the heart of the matter. While interesting, do I care that much what these historical figures say? No. Why? Their statements and opinions do not touch my life.

What has touched and reformed my life again and again are the Word of God/Jesus' teachings. These are living words and teachings that have drawn me ever closer to God and into the eternal kingdom life He has created for us to live while on this earth.

Blessed are the merciful...
Blessed are the clean of heart, the peacemakers, those who mourn, the meek, the poor in spirit, etc....
When doing good works, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing...
Discern the will of God and follow it...
Your sins are forgiven....
Faith can move mountains...
Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother...

Are idols known for any of these teachings? Do idols advise doing the will of God? Jesus pointed to a Way of life here on earth. Do idols do this? Does someone who never lived teach mankind? You say so. I and so many others do not say so because embracing the Word of God (Jesus) in one's life brings us every day miracles and guides us to being the best self (though still imperfect) that we can be. When we see miracles in our own lives, what do we care how people today try to tell us what Josephus (and others) "really" said or meant.

 

[ding]

What "Game," ding is a caddy, but spends Sundays in church licking his pulpit.
`

So much hate. So much anger. Definitely not the way to gain the happiness advantage.

 

[BreezeWood]

We live in an imperfect world...every generation.

perfection is a word without meaning, purity is what those in the 1st century knew is the goal set by the heavens the religion of antiquity for admission to the everlasting especially taught by jesus - to sin no more.

meriweather dwells in their imperfection as their religion - every generation same as the jews and their false commandments than ever realize the significance of the 1st century and its conclusion - judaism's triumph, christianity - together as the reversal of the heavenly intent set during the time of noah's catastrophe for humanities rehabilitation.

 

[shimon]

Sure, it is interesting history. It's failing is that it does not get to the heart of the matter. While interesting, do I care that much what these historical figures say? No. Why? Their statements and opinions do not touch my life.

What has touched and reformed my life again and again are the Word of God/Jesus' teachings. These are living words and teachings that have drawn me ever closer to God and into the eternal kingdom life He has created for us to live while on this earth.

Blessed are the merciful...
Blessed are the clean of heart, the peacemakers, those who mourn, the meek, the poor in spirit, etc....
When doing good works, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing...
Discern the will of God and follow it...
Your sins are forgiven....
Faith can move mountains...
Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother...

Are idols known for any of these teachings? Do idols advise doing the will of God? Jesus pointed to a Way of life here on earth. Do idols do this? Does someone who never lived teach mankind? You say so. I and so many others do not say so because embracing the Word of God (Jesus) in one's life brings us every day miracles and guides us to being the best self (though still imperfect) that we can be. When we see miracles in our own lives, what do we care how people today try to tell us what Josephus (and others) "really" said or meant.

An idol is good for nothing unfortunately the majority always wanted the easy way out because they were to lazy or it was too hard… Here I will give you an example using a classroom…In the “ OLD classroom the students were given a set of instructions that they were to follow to the letter so they would be successful in life and after much study and preparation they were given the OLD TEST which they passed and left the classroom ready to succeed in the world and the teachers were proud and happy with the “ students” and this worked for many many years.. However along came a New Set of Teachers and they watered down the curriculum and made it easy for all the students to pass no matter how poorly they studied or learned this NEW TEST they gave the students no rules no regulations it had only one criteria and that was to BELIEVE what they had told them to BELIEVE that in order to succeed in this world they were not responsible for their actions or behaviours as all had been forgiven and they could behave in any manner they liked as they had a free get out of jail card .is it any wonder why our society is the way it is and would it not be better for all involved to go back or RETURN to the original concepts so that the world and the people in it could and would have a better place to live in…If you being honest you know the answer in your heart…

 

[Meriweather]

An idol is good for nothing unfortunately the majority always wanted the easy way out because they were to lazy or it was too hard… Here I will give you an example using a classroom…In the “ OLD classroom the students were given a set of instructions that they were to follow to the letter so they would be successful in life and after much study and preparation they were given the OLD TEST which they passed and left the classroom ready to succeed in the world and the teachers were proud and happy with the “ students” and this worked for many many years.. However along came a New Set of Teachers and they watered down the curriculum and made it easy for all the students to pass no matter how poorly they studied or learned this NEW TEST they gave the students no rules no regulations it had only one criteria and that was to BELIEVE what they had told them to BELIEVE that in order to succeed in this world they were not responsible for their actions or behaviours as all had been forgiven and they could behave in any manner they liked as they had a free get out of jail card .is it any wonder why our society is the way it is and would it not be better for all involved to go back or RETURN to the original concepts so that the world and the people in it could and would have a better place to live in…If you being honest you know the answer in your heart…

Read through the Catechism of the Catholic Church and get back to me.

 

[BreezeWood]

the students were given a set of instructions that they were to follow to the letter so they would be successful in life ...

Read through the Catechism of the Catholic Church and get back to me.

the religions of servitude and denial -

the false commandments claimed heavenly by all three desert religions and catechisms of servitude and denial are the very heart of the 1st century events and their repudiation by jesus and those others that gave their lives for the original goal made by the heavens at the request by a&e - the triumph of good vs evil, self determination to attain judgement for admission to the everlasting.

 

[The Irish Ram]

There weren't a lot of shepherds out watching their flocks at night in Dec. That would be Spring when they are lambing, or Summer to protect them from predators. Sheep are usually kept in sheepfolds in the winter.

 

[Zebra]

He was born on December 25th.

said on Dec 25