"satan" in Judaism

[theDoctorisIn]

First of all, you are the word who used the term "angel." I asked you to whom was G-d speaking, and you replied "An angel."

Because I didn't' want to split hairs with you, I let that go, but clearly he is speaking to the "Sons of G-d." Why do you think I asked you how does one say "Sons of G-d," because I didn't know myself? I was asking to see if you even realized your own mistake when you said "angel," since you responded correctly, I knew you threw out the term "angel" in a loose fashion so as not to confuse non Jewish/Hebrew speaking USMB members.

And yes, the Book of Enoch (OMG HERESY) and other rejected canon certainly help us better understand the Bene Elohim.

Well, no. You asked how to say "Sons of God" because you had already mistakenly referred to them as "Elohim", which just means "God".

Bnai Elohim refers not to angels in general, but to a specific type of "angel" (or perhaps not). It is not an all-inclusive term for "angel".

The word mal'akh, which means "messenger" is generally translated as "angel", and appears much more frequently than Bnai Elohim.

You said the term "angel" first, you cannot back out of that. I assumed you were illiterate in Hebrew.

I'm not trying to "back out" of anything. "Angels" is a perfectly legitimate term for what we're discussing.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

You said the term "angel" first, you cannot back out of that. I assumed you were illiterate in Hebrew.

I'm not trying to "back out" of anything. "Angels" is a perfectly legitimate term for what we're discussing.

You just said in post 135 that angel is not a legitimate term.

I'm allowing you to define the language that we're using (in other words I've already voluntarily ceded you a lot of power in this discussion for the sake of expedience), and you keep changing it.

If you use the word angel as your DEFINITIVE response, I assume that I too can use the word "angel," so long as it is construed in the manner in which you defined it.

Actually, many historical Torah scholars believed that "Bnai Elohim" refers to powerful, magical mortal men, not "angels".

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You said the term "angel" first, you cannot back out of that. I assumed you were illiterate in Hebrew.

I'm not trying to "back out" of anything. "Angels" is a perfectly legitimate term for what we're discussing.

You just said in post 135 that angel is not a legitimate term.

Actually, many historical Torah scholars believed that "Bnai Elohim" refers to powerful, magical mortal men, not "angels".

Perhaps you should re-read that post of mine.

It doesn't say what you think it does.

"Angels" is a perfectly legitimate term. "Bnai Elohim" may not refer to angels, though.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Torah disagrees with you, Satan is clearly a Being, just like I am a Being, and you are a Being. God clearly has a conversation with this Being. You could throw 20,000 pages of Rabbinic literature to the contrary, it doesn't matter.

And we know what happens to people who disbelieve the rabbis.
I am inclined to agree with the good doctor: you are a poseur.

Anyone who disagrees with the Torah is a poseur.

Find me ANY translation of the Book of Job that doesn't identify Satan as a Being.

Evangelical and fundamentalists are literalist heretics scripturally, so your worries about it all are not mine.

Work on knowing Jesus; you will be fine.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You said the term "angel" first, you cannot back out of that. I assumed you were illiterate in Hebrew.

I'm not trying to "back out" of anything. "Angels" is a perfectly legitimate term for what we're discussing.

You just said in post 135 that angel is not a legitimate term.

I'm allowing you to define the language that we're using (in other words I've already voluntarily ceded you a lot of power in this discussion for the sake of expedience), and you keep changing it.

If you use the word angel as your DEFINITIVE response, I assume that I too can use the word "angel," so long as it is construed in the manner in which you defined it.

Actually, many historical Torah scholars believed that "Bnai Elohim" refers to powerful, magical mortal men, not "angels".

It's funny that you say that, since your entire argument so far seems to be based around attempting to define "Satan" as something other than it's accepted Jewish meaning.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Anyone who disagrees with the Torah is a poseur.

Find me ANY translation of the Book of Job that doesn't identify Satan as a Being.

I dont read translations.

Good you walked into the trap.

Does not the original Hebrew text record a conversation between God and Satan?

Not as the reactionary evangelical Christian understands it, no.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually it says "the bnei Elokim", which we understand as angels. And 'the Soton" was among them.
Doctor, I have to congratulate you. We dont often see eye to eye but you successfully smoked out this poseur and revealed his abject ignorance for all.

SO with whom is G-d having a conversation? Are we to believe the G-d is talking to a non-entity, or to Himself?

A conservation requires two parties.

Let us not forget that the second party, "Satan," SPEAKS BACK.

No, it is not Satan as you understand the being.

It is a described Angel with no name given.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Perhaps you should re-read that post of mine.

It doesn't say what you think it does.

"Angels" is a perfectly legitimate term. "Bnai Elohim" may not refer to angels, though.

That depends on one's faith in the Book of Enoch.

Do you recognize Enoch or not? Most Jews don't, I do.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually, many historical Torah scholars believed that "Bnai Elohim" refers to powerful, magical mortal men, not "angels".

First of all, you are the word who used the term "angel." I asked you to whom was G-d speaking, and you replied "An angel."

Because I didn't' want to split hairs with you, I let that go, but clearly he is speaking to the "Sons of G-d." Why do you think I asked you how does one say "Sons of G-d," because I didn't know myself? I was asking to see if you even realized your own mistake when you said "angel," since you responded correctly, I knew you threw out the term "angel" in a loose fashion so as not to confuse non Jewish/Hebrew speaking USMB members.

And yes, the Book of Enoch (OMG HERESY) and other rejected canon certainly help us better understand the Bene Elohim. We see the term "Nephilim" in Genesis 6 and Numbers 13. The author of the Book of Job assumes that one is familiar with the book of Enoch, which makes one wonder why the Rabbis accepted the Book of Job (most reluctantly, and have written thousands of pages denying the personification of Satan) and denied the Book of Enoch, which is requisite for the Book of Job.

You have been taught but you have not heard, 2d Amendment.

Put away your hardness of heart, and please go back through the thread.

You are missing a truth here that is very, very important.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Perhaps you should re-read that post of mine.

It doesn't say what you think it does.

"Angels" is a perfectly legitimate term. "Bnai Elohim" may not refer to angels, though.

That depends on one's faith in the Book of Enoch.

Do you recognize Enoch or not? Most Jews don't, I do.

Do I recognize it as what?

 

[JakeStarkey]

From the Jewish Virtual Library Satan | Jewish Virtual Library

Judaism does not view “Satan” with the same connotation as other religions.

Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.

Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins. Some Midrashim claim that the sounding of the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah is utilized to keep Satan away as Jews begin to atone for their sins. Even the morning after Yom Kippur, many Jews attend services to guarantee Satan does not make one last effort to instigate Jews to commit sins.

 

[Jroc]

I'll add this to Jake's post..

"Now the day came about, and the angels of G‑d came to stand beside the L‑rd, and the satan, too, came among them…"

"Now the L‑rd said to the satan, "Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him on earth, a sincere and upright man, G‑d-fearing and shunning evil."

And the satan answered the L‑rd and said, "Does Job fear G‑d for nothing? Haven't You made a hedge around him, his household, and all that he has on all sides? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land. But now, stretch forth Your hand and touch all that he has, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?"

Now the L‑rd said to the satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hands; only upon him do not stretch forth your hand." Now the satan left the presence of the L‑rd."2

From this passage, we see that G‑d created an angel to play the role of provocateur; that he is a messenger of, and subservient to, G‑d. He was not a fallen angel or sent to Hell, where he began fighting G‑d; he was created to be Satan. Neither does Satan spend his days stoking the flames of hell with his pitchfork. He is a presence on earth with a mission: to provoke people to disobey G‑d's will.

Indeed, the dualistic notion of a powerful anti-G‑d figure that fights with G‑d for the destiny of the human race is incompatible with Jewish belief. There is no power of evil independent of G‑d; otherwise this would imply a lack of G‑d's all-inclusive control and power.

Can You Sell Your Soul to the Devil? - Questions & Answers

 

[The2ndAmendment]

From the Jewish Virtual Library Satan | Jewish Virtual Library

Judaism does not view “Satan” with the same connotation as other religions.

Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.

Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins. Some Midrashim claim that the sounding of the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah is utilized to keep Satan away as Jews begin to atone for their sins. Even the morning after Yom Kippur, many Jews attend services to guarantee Satan does not make one last effort to instigate Jews to commit sins.

The Tanakh (Ketuvim) is superior to the Talmud. The Book of Job recognizes Satan as a Being. When the Tanakh and the Talmud (or Midrash or any other text) disagree, the Tanakh is right, and the Rabbis are in grave error.

 

[Jroc]

From the Jewish Virtual Library Satan | Jewish Virtual Library

Judaism does not view “Satan” with the same connotation as other religions.

Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.

Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins. Some Midrashim claim that the sounding of the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah is utilized to keep Satan away as Jews begin to atone for their sins. Even the morning after Yom Kippur, many Jews attend services to guarantee Satan does not make one last effort to instigate Jews to commit sins.

The Tanakh (Ketuvim) is superior to the Talmud. The Book of Job recognizes Satan as a Being.

You're wrong read my post

Indeed, the dualistic notion of a powerful anti-G‑d figure that fights with G‑d for the destiny of the human race is incompatible with Jewish belief. There is no power of evil independent of G‑d; otherwise this would imply a lack of G‑d's all-inclusive control and power.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Indeed, the dualistic notion of a powerful anti-G‑d figure that fights with G‑d for the destiny of the human race is incompatible with Jewish belief. There is no power of evil independent of G‑d; otherwise this would imply a lack of G‑d's all-inclusive control and power.

There is never any claim (by me) that Satan competes with G-d.

The Book of Job makes it clear that Satan must obtain permission from G-d, which is the only reason it managed to survive as canon.

In fact, I don't even know why you raised this point.

 

[Jroc]

Indeed, the dualistic notion of a powerful anti-G‑d figure that fights with G‑d for the destiny of the human race is incompatible with Jewish belief. There is no power of evil independent of G‑d; otherwise this would imply a lack of G‑d's all-inclusive control and power.

There is never any claim (by me) that Satan competes with G-d.

The Book of Job makes it clear that Satan must obtain permission from G-d, which is the only reason it managed to survive as canon.

In fact, I don't even know why you raised this point.

There is no satan independent of G-d.... You missed the point entirely

 

[The2ndAmendment]

There is never any claim (by me) that Satan competes with G-d.

The Book of Job makes it clear that Satan must obtain permission from G-d, which is the only reason it managed to survive as canon.

In fact, I don't even know why you raised this point.

There is no satan independent of G-d.... You missed the point entirely

And this claim has never been made in this thread. If so, locate where.

 

[MHunterB]

What? Please stop embarrassing yourself. You just said that Jews don't believe in the Book of Job.

Job 1 - Prologue - In the land of Uz there - Bible Gateway

You're not a Jew at all.

You're only way out is the "yetzer hara" explanation. Yet, Rabbinic fears of the personification of Satan in the Book of Job shouldn't be fears at all. The Book of Job makes it clear that Satan shares no authority with God, nor controls any dominion outside of God's. Satan MUST ask God for permission in order to Act against his will. Thus, Satan is not a deity or any sort, and is entirely inferior to God.

No Rabbi or any other Jewish authority could convince me that Satan was NOT personified in this passage. The Torah is the highest authority, not a Rabbi.

"Satan" means "adversary" in Hebrew. It doesn't mean "Devil". It's not a proper name.

The "satan" of the Book of Job has no relation to the "Satan" that you are so afraid Katy Perry worships.

The Torah disagrees with you, Satan is clearly a Being, just like I am a Being, and you are a Being. God clearly has a conversation with this Being. You could throw 20,000 pages of Rabbinic literature to the contrary, it doesn't matter.

Given tat you are presuming to present what you claim is 'the Jewish view' - couldn't you have bothered to find an actual translation of the Hebrew Bible to quote? What would be best is something like the Mechon-Mamre interlineal version, so that one can compare the orginal language to the translation.

In fact, while 'ha-satan' is a being - it is more of a 'job description'. This is not at all problematic when one considers the Jewish concept of 'angels' as being 'thoughts' of GOD: any given angel exists only long enough to serve its intended purpose. A few are so important in function that they have been given names (all of which include a name of GOD)....

The 'yetzer ha-ra' is internal and separate from 'ha-satan': there is also a 'yetzer ha-tov'. Although they are called 'good' (tov) and 'evil' inclinations - they are not 'good' or 'evil' in the absolute. Let me try to illustrate - we might also call them 'altruism' and 'selfishness'.

If a person takes of his assets and gives so much to the poor that his own children go hungry - should that still be called 'good'?

If a person decides to build a house, plant a tree, or have a child - is that impulse 'evil'? The Jewish sages said those come from the yetzer ha-ra

Relating this a bit to the contemporary world: if I vote to support educational programs in my town, am I 'selfish' or 'generous'? Assuming the dear kidlets are kept busy with homework, they won't be traipsing about vandalizing property. And they will also be able to get better-paying jobs, and pay more in taxes - all of which will increase the price I can get for my home when I am ready to sell it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Tanakh (Ketuvim) is superior to the Talmud. The Book of Job recognizes Satan as a Being. When the Tanakh and the Talmud (or Midrash or any other text) disagree, the Tanakh is right, and the Rabbis are in grave error.

While you are not in grave danger, you are still wrong. (1) You are not Chief Jew, (2) you are not a Hebrew scholar, and the (3) Accuser of the Hebrew Scriptures to the Jews is not our Satan.

 

[The Rabbi]

From the Jewish Virtual Library Satan | Jewish Virtual Library

Judaism does not view “Satan” with the same connotation as other religions.

Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.

Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins. Some Midrashim claim that the sounding of the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah is utilized to keep Satan away as Jews begin to atone for their sins. Even the morning after Yom Kippur, many Jews attend services to guarantee Satan does not make one last effort to instigate Jews to commit sins.

The Tanakh (Ketuvim) is superior to the Talmud. The Book of Job recognizes Satan as a Being. When the Tanakh and the Talmud (or Midrash or any other text) disagree, the Tanakh is right, and the Rabbis are in grave error.

I would say you're a min and an apikorus but that would require actual knowledge. So you're merely an am haaretz.