my personal observations for $15 an hour minimum

[harmonica]

If you don't mind paying a lot more for everything, sure, unions could work.

Everything?
So you'd rather $15 and growing for everyone as opposed to unionizing skilled workers and paying them wages according to their skills?

Seems the anti-union people are confused about why they hate unions and why they oppose the minimum wage.

Go think about it and get back.

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

.....yes, my old company moved manufacturing out of our state to a right-to-work state

 

[Dadoalex]

If you don't mind paying a lot more for everything, sure, unions could work.

Everything?
So you'd rather $15 and growing for everyone as opposed to unionizing skilled workers and paying them wages according to their skills?

Seems the anti-union people are confused about why they hate unions and why they oppose the minimum wage.

Go think about it and get back.

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

 

[Utilitarian]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

 

[Dadoalex]

If you don't mind paying a lot more for everything, sure, unions could work.

Everything?
So you'd rather $15 and growing for everyone as opposed to unionizing skilled workers and paying them wages according to their skills?

Seems the anti-union people are confused about why they hate unions and why they oppose the minimum wage.

Go think about it and get back.

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

.....yes, my old company moved manufacturing out of our state to a right-to-work state

And?

Let me give you the history...
Furniture companies moved from New England to the Mid south to avoid union wages.
A few years later they moved that manufacturing from the US to the Philippines, Korea, and China.
Know where those companies are now?
Gone. All that remains is some brand names used to make you think you're buying quality.

Now all those New Englanders, and Carolinians are out of work and the greedy owners lost their businesses.

There's a lesson there. Figure it out.

 

[Dadoalex]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

I'm willing to listen to ideas of making unions more responsive to their workers needs and I'm not that familiar with German labor law but have such a meeting at wal mart and they will fire every worker and close the store. They've done it which is why we need laws supporting unions at the federal level.

 

[Utilitarian]

If you don't mind paying a lot more for everything, sure, unions could work.

Everything?
So you'd rather $15 and growing for everyone as opposed to unionizing skilled workers and paying them wages according to their skills?

Seems the anti-union people are confused about why they hate unions and why they oppose the minimum wage.

Go think about it and get back.

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

.....yes, my old company moved manufacturing out of our state to a right-to-work state

And?

Let me give you the history...
Furniture companies moved from New England to the Mid south to avoid union wages.
A few years later they moved that manufacturing from the US to the Philippines, Korea, and China.
Know where those companies are now?
Gone. All that remains is some brand names used to make you think you're buying quality.

Now all those New Englanders, and Carolinians are out of work and the greedy owners lost their businesses.

There's a lesson there. Figure it out.

The lesson is that unions expedite the process of outsourcing. The furniture market is slowly coming back to Hickory, NC due to protectionism, not unions. Of course, some of that protectionism that Trump put into place has been removed by Biden, so the outsourcing will probably happen again.

Overall, the best that can be done is for the system to reinvest in labor so that people can improve their skill sets over time. In the long run, most manufacturing can't stay in the US unless it involves a lot of automation. So, all unions do in low to medium skill industries is speed up the process of outsourcing or automation.

I'm ok with government initiatives for educating our workforce more. That would help far more than any union.

 

[progressive hunter]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

I'm willing to listen to ideas of making unions more responsive to their workers needs and I'm not that familiar with German labor law but have such a meeting at wal mart and they will fire every worker and close the store. They've done it which is why we need laws supporting unions at the federal level.

they arent the unions workers,, they are the unions payday and nothing more,,,

 

[Utilitarian]

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

I'm willing to listen to ideas of making unions more responsive to their workers needs and I'm not that familiar with German labor law but have such a meeting at wal mart and they will fire every worker and close the store. They've done it which is why we need laws supporting unions at the federal level.

Worker councils are organized by the management of the company. So, it would require the consent of management. I realize that work culture is very different in the US as compared with Germany, which is why Walmart would oppose something like this. A lot of corporate culture in America overall is ironically woke on social issues but not exactly worker-friendly on economic issues. It shows just how disingenuous their virtue signaling is. It's like how Nike supports BLM but profits off of Uyghur slave labor.

Not every company is run by assholes though.

 

[Dadoalex]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

Unions apply pressure across an industry.
For example, if Kroger Meatcutters are unionized but Safeway's are not then a strike at Kroger would only benefit Safeway. But if the industry is unionized then a strike is more effective.

I don't defend bad behaviors on either side. Union dollars should be treated like government monies and every dollar audited by independent auditors and criminal laws surrounding union corruption should be strengthened and hardened.

 

[progressive hunter]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

Unions apply pressure across an industry.
For example, if Kroger Meatcutters are unionized but Safeway's are not then a strike at Kroger would only benefit Safeway. But if the industry is unionized then a strike is more effective.

I don't defend bad behaviors on either side. Union dollars should be treated like government monies and every dollar audited by independent auditors and criminal laws surrounding union corruption should be strengthened and hardened.

nothing like a little force to get people in line,,,

sounds kinda fascist to me,,,

 

[Dadoalex]

If you don't mind paying a lot more for everything, sure, unions could work.

Everything?
So you'd rather $15 and growing for everyone as opposed to unionizing skilled workers and paying them wages according to their skills?

Seems the anti-union people are confused about why they hate unions and why they oppose the minimum wage.

Go think about it and get back.

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

.....yes, my old company moved manufacturing out of our state to a right-to-work state

And?

Let me give you the history...
Furniture companies moved from New England to the Mid south to avoid union wages.
A few years later they moved that manufacturing from the US to the Philippines, Korea, and China.
Know where those companies are now?
Gone. All that remains is some brand names used to make you think you're buying quality.

Now all those New Englanders, and Carolinians are out of work and the greedy owners lost their businesses.

There's a lesson there. Figure it out.

The lesson is that unions expedite the process of outsourcing. The furniture market is slowly coming back to Hickory, NC due to protectionism, not unions. Of course, some of that protectionism that Trump put into place has been removed by Biden, so the outsourcing will probably happen again.

Overall, the best that can be done is for the system to reinvest in labor so that people can improve their skill sets over time. In the long run, most manufacturing can't stay in the US unless it involves a lot of automation. So, all unions do in low to medium skill industries is speed up the process of outsourcing or automation.

I'm ok with government initiatives for educating our workforce more. That would help far more than any union.

The furniture maker no longer exists.
All that remains is the trademark that was sold during bankruptcy.

All that remains of the companies and the jobs.

 

[Dadoalex]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

I'm willing to listen to ideas of making unions more responsive to their workers needs and I'm not that familiar with German labor law but have such a meeting at wal mart and they will fire every worker and close the store. They've done it which is why we need laws supporting unions at the federal level.

they arent the unions workers,, they are the unions payday and nothing more,,,

Your inability to discuss the topic rationally clearly demonstrates you are not worthy of response.

 

[progressive hunter]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

I'm willing to listen to ideas of making unions more responsive to their workers needs and I'm not that familiar with German labor law but have such a meeting at wal mart and they will fire every worker and close the store. They've done it which is why we need laws supporting unions at the federal level.

they arent the unions workers,, they are the unions payday and nothing more,,,

Your inability to discuss the topic rationally clearly demonstrates you are not worthy of response.

I did discuss it rationally,,,

you want to use force to get people to do what you want and I explained why I reject that as a fascist act,,,

maybe its your POV thats the problem,,,

 

[initforme]

If you ever eat fast food...your fault. Why do you do something so insanely dumb?

 

[Utilitarian]

Unionization often just creates corruption. This is shown by things like the Post Office and the auto industry. Pushing the minimum wage higher is easy enough to sidestep through automation and hiring illegals.

No, unions don't create corruption anymore than politics or churches create corruption.

Anyplace there's lots of money greedy people will try to take it.

I have a hard time making the argument for a $15 /hr wage for a 17 yo burger flipper with literally no skills.
But
Meat cutters, professional drivers, Nurses aides, and the like? Yeah.
So, how do we segregate the skilled low wage laborer from the unskilled laborer?
Unions.

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

Unions apply pressure across an industry.
For example, if Kroger Meatcutters are unionized but Safeway's are not then a strike at Kroger would only benefit Safeway. But if the industry is unionized then a strike is more effective.

I don't defend bad behaviors on either side. Union dollars should be treated like government monies and every dollar audited by independent auditors and criminal laws surrounding union corruption should be strengthened and hardened.

I should clarify. Workers should have the right to collectively bargain or unionize if they are private sector. However, as you mentioned, each workforce has to set up their own union or bring in the established union that is present in the industry. The interim period can be tricky, but that's just the nature of the market.

The only place where I'm unconditionally against unions is with the public sector. Since there is no competition for services in the public sector, unions in those industries is unfair to taxpayers.

 

[Utilitarian]

The lesson is that unions expedite the process of outsourcing. The furniture market is slowly coming back to Hickory, NC due to protectionism, not unions. Of course, some of that protectionism that Trump put into place has been removed by Biden, so the outsourcing will probably happen again.

Overall, the best that can be done is for the system to reinvest in labor so that people can improve their skill sets over time. In the long run, most manufacturing can't stay in the US unless it involves a lot of automation. So, all unions do in low to medium skill industries is speed up the process of outsourcing or automation.

I'm ok with government initiatives for educating our workforce more. That would help far more than any union.

The furniture maker no longer exists.
All that remains is the trademark that was sold during bankruptcy.

All that remains of the companies and the jobs.

In the example I gave, the jobs still exist.

The U.S. Furniture Industry Is Back—but There Aren’t Enough Workers

Consumer preferences and tariffs have led companies to expand their American furniture production. They are finding a dearth of skilled workers to support the renaissance.

www.wsj.com

The real issue is the lack of skills in the workforce.

 

[Dadoalex]

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

I'm willing to listen to ideas of making unions more responsive to their workers needs and I'm not that familiar with German labor law but have such a meeting at wal mart and they will fire every worker and close the store. They've done it which is why we need laws supporting unions at the federal level.

Worker councils are organized by the management of the company. So, it would require the consent of management. I realize that work culture is very different in the US as compared with Germany, which is why Walmart would oppose something like this. A lot of corporate culture in America overall is ironically woke on social issues but not exactly worker-friendly on economic issues. It shows just how disingenuous their virtue signaling is. It's like how Nike supports BLM but profits off of Uyghur slave labor.

Not every company is run by assholes though.

Management and Labor should be hand in glove partners. After all, they share a common goal. The success of the company.
Again, I can't speak for Germany but the attitude from management in this country has traditionally been "give as little as you can."
Conversely, when unions organized they approached the effort with "get as much as we can."
The battle lines were set. Greed, not the success of the company, would drive every aspect of the relationship.
But if the sides could approach the relationship as partners rather than enemies then both would benefit.

 

[initforme]

Employers have never had it so easy...so disgustingly easy to find good workers. It's mind blowing how great today's workers are. Willing to work until they basically drop over...for pittance.

 

[initforme]

Do you think employees are there for the good of the company? Pffft. Those days are looooooooong over.

 

[Utilitarian]

I have a better idea. Encourage companies to form their own worker councils like a lot of German companies have. Germany doesn't bother with unions usually, because these worker councils are essentially internal unions, which function far better than our typical unions. The reason for this is that an internal body has a vested interest in efficiency, whereas an outside body has a vested interest in just maximizing its fees and revenue.

I'm willing to listen to ideas of making unions more responsive to their workers needs and I'm not that familiar with German labor law but have such a meeting at wal mart and they will fire every worker and close the store. They've done it which is why we need laws supporting unions at the federal level.

Worker councils are organized by the management of the company. So, it would require the consent of management. I realize that work culture is very different in the US as compared with Germany, which is why Walmart would oppose something like this. A lot of corporate culture in America overall is ironically woke on social issues but not exactly worker-friendly on economic issues. It shows just how disingenuous their virtue signaling is. It's like how Nike supports BLM but profits off of Uyghur slave labor.

Not every company is run by assholes though.

Management and Labor should be hand in glove partners. After all, they share a common goal. The success of the company.
Again, I can't speak for Germany but the attitude from management in this country has traditionally been "give as little as you can."
Conversely, when unions organized they approached the effort with "get as much as we can."
The battle lines were set. Greed, not the success of the company, would drive every aspect of the relationship.
But if the sides could approach the relationship as partners rather than enemies then both would benefit.

There are various reasons for the cutthroat nature of business here, but one aspect rarely discussed is that Germany (and the EU as a whole) operates as a cartel. They limit who is able to enter their market. This allows for some protection of industry there. We engage in similar tactics, but not to the same extent.

Germany also has a far superior education system that divides children by academic and technical talents. They don't have a shortage of blue collar labor, for example.

If we reformed our education system to resemble theirs, it would then allow us to push a corporate culture that would be more democratic in nature. That would make unions redundant, because labor reforms would be internal.