Jesus died for your sins ??

[Meriweather]

I'm familiar with the sacraments but respectfully, that's not what needs to happen for redemption/salvation.

Never said it was. I said it was a Way of life--this life.

 

[buttercup]

The Catholic Church never taught you about baptism and being adopted into the Body of Christ? What classes did you attend? I did go to Catholic school, but even so when I was pregnant and knew my children would be baptized, I attended baptism preparation classes as well. This also crops up in homilies from time to time.

No, that's not what I said. I said the Catholic Church never taught me about salvation, or in the word you prefer, redemption.

The Catholic Church never even encouraged me to read the Bible, much less study it! The Catholic Church never told me about the necessity of having a personal relationship with God, there was nothing like that. I'm sorry because I know you won't like to hear this, but even as a child I intuitively kjnew that it was just religion, religious rituals, but then the rest of the week the people I saw at church on Sunday acted just like everyone else in the world! That was the reason why I rejected all of it and unfortunately threw the baby out with the bathwater.

But getting back to the point, redemption and salvation is not about infant baptism or sacraments. That is where you and I disagree, but as I said in my previous post, it doesn't look like we're going to agree on this.

 

[buttercup]

Sprinkled??!! You have got to be kidding.

Anyone who is baptized into the Body of Christ has been redeemed. Christ is our redemption.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you seem to be deny that it's just about being sprinkled with water, but then in your next post you say that anyone who is baptized into the body of Christ has been redeemed.

So which is it?

I'm going to get back to your earlier posts about "the way of life", when you post several posts rapidly, it doesn't give me time to reply to each one.

 

[Meriweather]

No, that's not what I said. I said the Catholic Church never taught me about salvation, or in the word you prefer, redemption.

The Church is all about salvation; the word 'Saved' is seldom used. Jesus is the Way of Salvation. Sometimes it seems non-Catholic Christians view 'Saved' as a one time event, over and done. Meanwhile, Catholics view it more as salvation being The Way of Life. Jesus is our salvation, Jesus is The Way. Life long journey, beginning with our baptism, being led by our parents along this Way. Baptism, nor any Sacrament, is seen as a 'one time over and done" but the start of a new life in the Spirit.

 

[buttercup]

Just a ritual? Buttercup, it is not a ritual, but a way of living life. Do you think of being "Born Again" as a mere ritual? Another way of looking at it: A wedding is a marriage ceremony/rite, but marriage is a way of life. In the same way, 'Confession' may be a rite, but repentance is a way of life.

No, absolutely not, I believe just the opposite!

As I explained in post #141, a genuine change of mind and heart has to happen which comes from understanding our true spiritual condition, genuine repentance and putting faith in JESUS, not our own works not in religion, not in sacraments not in anything like that… But surrendering and putting our complete faith in Jesus and what HE already did for us.

You said it's not a ritual but a way of living life. I want to know what you mean by "a way of living life." Because what I think the problem is here, the thing that is being left out, is that it's not about merely living life in a good way or doing works to 'maintain' our salvation (salvation cannot be lost when it's genuine.) When you are born again, you literally die to your old self, the old person you were is gone, you literally become a new creation, there is a whole new life!

So it's not about living life in a better way, but new life, spiritual birth! That is where I think the Catholic Church misleads people, because it creates this false idea that someone is already redeemed just by going through the sacraments, but in many cases those people never truly experience regeneration, which is not a religious thing, it is a real thing that happens in us, by God's grace, through faith. A saving faith, which as I said in post #141 involves a genuine surrender to God, and understanding we cannot save ourselves. Our works don't get us saved, only GOD does.

 

[buttercup]

The Church is all about salvation; the word 'Saved' is seldom used. Jesus is the Way of Salvation. Sometimes it seems non-Catholic Christians view 'Saved' as a one time event, over and done. Meanwhile, Catholics view it more as salvation being The Way of Life. Jesus is our salvation, Jesus is The Way. Life long journey, beginning with our baptism, being led by our parents along this Way. Baptism, nor any Sacrament, is seen as a 'one time over and done" but the start of a new life in the Spirit.

No, I never said it was a one-time thing. Justification is a one time thing, in other words the moment we go from death to life. But there is much more than just that. Sanctification, or continually growing spiritually, that happens over a lifetime.

 

[Meriweather]

The Catholic Church never even encouraged me to read the Bible, much less study it! The Catholic Church never told me about the necessity of having a personal relationship with God, there was nothing like that. I'm sorry because I know you won't like to hear this, but even as a child I intuitively kjnew that it was just religion, religious rituals, but then the rest of the week the people I saw at church on Sunday acted just like everyone else in the world! That was the reason why I rejected all of it and unfortunately threw the baby out with the bathwater.

Are you aware that Catholics who attend Sunday Mass read through the Bible every three years? Those who attend daily Mass read through the Bible every year.

It sounds like you were not from a Catholic family. My grandmother read the Bible. My mother read the Bible (as did my father). Beginning in Junior High, as a Catholic School kid I read the Bible.

Here's the thing: No one ever told me to read a recipe--didn't need to because it was happening all around me and I am sure the adults around me considered me smart enough to pick up reading a recipe.

Then you limited your activity to merely going to Church? You did not volunteer to visit the poor, the sick, or the elderly? What about becoming a part of the Welcoming Committee? Did you volunteer to teach a class or even to join a class? Become a Reader, a Eucharistic Minister, a hostess, usher, or help mothers with their children? You simply sat there at Mass and never thought about taking what you heard out into the world?

Don't think I am claiming that all Catholics are that active, I am not. But for many of us, Mass is just the beginning. It is the inspiration to do more. And, I am sorry you never saw that part of the Church.

 

[Meriweather]

But getting back to the point, redemption and salvation is not about infant baptism or sacraments.

It is all about living baptism and the sacraments...which, like a marriage, begins with a ritual and becomes one's life.

 

[buttercup]

Are you aware that Catholics who attend Sunday Mass read through the Bible every three years? Those who attend daily Mass read through the Bible every year.

It sounds like you were not from a Catholic family. My grandmother read the Bible. My mother read the Bible (as did my father). Beginning in Junior High, as a Catholic School kid I read the Bible.

Here's the thing: No one ever told me to read a recipe--didn't need to because it was happening all around me and I am sure the adults around me considered me smart enough to pick up reading a recipe.

Then you limited your activity to merely going to Church? You did not volunteer to visit the poor, the sick, or the elderly? What about becoming a part of the Welcoming Committee? Did you volunteer to teach a class or even to join a class? Become a Reader, a Eucharistic Minister, a hostess, usher, or help mothers with their children? You simply sat there at Mass and never thought about taking what you heard out into the world?

Don't think I am claiming that all Catholics are that active, I am not. But for many of us, Mass is just the beginning. It is the inspiration to do more. And, I am sorry you never saw that part of the Church.

Let me clarify something, because clearly you misunderstood. I was not Catholic in my adult life, I was raised Catholic by my Catholic mom (my dad was an atheist), so I went to Catholic Church starting as a young child up until maybe my mid teens. My mom, my grandparents and everyone on her side of the family is Catholic. And NONE of them, or anyone in the Catholic Church like the priest or anyone else ever encouraged me to read or study the bible. NONE of them ever told me that I needed a personal relationship with God or that I needed redemption.

That was my experience. Yes, of course not everyone's experience is the same. But I know many people who are former Catholics who say the same thing.

 

[buttercup]

It is all about living baptism and the sacraments...which, like a marriage, begins with a ritual and becomes one's life.

You said that a few times but you have never elaborated, you've never explained it in your own words. I don't know if you saw my earlier post about spiritual birth, but that is what is important. If we don't experience spiritual birth, then living a "good" life means very little. It is literally like spraying perfume on a corpse.

 

[buttercup]

For Meriwether or anyone else interested in this topic, I made a video about six years ago, about salvation, and more specifically, reasons why salvation by works does not work. If you get a chance, please watch it:

 

[BreezeWood]

How do you conclude that Pandora's Box predates the record found in Genesis? The First Book of the Bible is an oral history as inspired to record by the Holy Spirit through Moses. No one can prove anything predates the record found in Genesis.....its all based upon conjecture, speculation and assumption. How can the beginning be predated?

Again.......prove how anything can predate the truth found in Genesis. How is any "oral" history passed down? By word.
"In the beginning was THE WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- Genesis 1:1

Those that cannot accept the record found Genesis as nothing but a myth based upon allegory cannot possibly be a devout Christian. Why?

The biblical writers who were inspired by God to record the history did not find the Genesis account or the person of Jesus to be "mythical" in nature. Especially the writings found in the New Testament record.....these writers quote from the book of Genesis numerous times. If you accept the record found throughout the Bible as being inspired by God then the account found in Genesis is a truthful account. If Genesis is not truthful then the entire Bible is based upon lies and deceit.

Creation of the Universe: Genesis 1:1 referenced in (John 1:3, Col. 1:16)

Creation of Adam and Eve: Genesis 1:2 referenced in (1 Tim. 2:13-14)

Marriage of Adam and Eve: Genesis 1:2 referenced in (1 Tim. 2:13)

Temptation the female: Genesis 3 referenced in (1 Tim 2:14)

Disobedience and sin of Adam: Genesis 3 referenced in (Rom. 5:12, 1 Cor. 15:22)

The sacrifices of Cain and Able: Genesis 4 referenced in (Heb. 11:4)

The birth of Seth Genesis 4 referenced in (Luke 3:38)

Translation of Enoch Genesis 5 referenced in (Heb. 11:5)

Marriage before the flood Genesis 6 referenced in (Luke 17:27)

The flood and destruction of man Genesis 7 referenced as literal truth in (Matt. 24:39)

Preservation of Noah and his family Genesis 8-9 referenced in (2 Peter 2:5) referenced as literal truth....not allegorical myth.

The genealogy of Shem Genesis 10 referenced in (Luke 3:35-36)

Birth of Abraham Genesis 11 referenced in (Luke 3:34)

The call of Abraham Genesis 12-13 referenced in (Heb. 11:8)

If you can't accept Genesis as truth.......then you can't accept Jesus because its all lies.

.

How do you conclude that Pandora's Box predates the record found in Genesis? The First Book of the Bible is an oral history as inspired to record by the Holy Spirit through Moses. No one can prove anything predates the record found in Genesis.....its all based upon conjecture, speculation and assumption. How can the beginning be predated?

.
give it a break ...
.
The Pandora myth is a kind of theodicy, addressing the question of why there is evil in the world, according to which, Pandora opened a jar (pithos) (commonly referred to as "Pandora's box") releasing all the evils of humanity. It has been argued that Hesiod's interpretation of Pandora's story went on to influence both Jewish and Christian theology and so perpetuated her bad reputation into the Renaissance. Later poets, dramatists, painters and sculptors made her their subject.
.
oral is all anyone knows from whatever source - were the desert books all to disappear what then will they have - what they have now - nothing.

not so the true religions.

 

[Meriweather]

Let me clarify something, because clearly you misunderstood. I was not Catholic in my adult life, I was raised Catholic by my Catholic mom (my dad was an atheist), so I went to Catholic Church starting as a young child up until maybe my mid teens. My mom, my grandparents and everyone on her side of the family is Catholic. And NONE of them, or anyone in the Catholic Church like the priest or anyone else ever encouraged me to read or study the bible. NONE of them ever told me that I needed a personal relationship with God or that I needed redemption.

And you never saw that any of them had a strong relationship with God? They never prayed with with you? You never prayed together for the extended family?

Again, just like I never had to be told to read a recipe, I never had to be told I should have my own personal relationship with God. They lived it, I lived it, we lived it.

 

[buttercup]

And you never saw that any of them had a strong relationship with God? They never prayed with with you? You never prayed together for the extended family?

Again, just like I never had to be told to read a recipe, I never had to be told I should have my own personal relationship with God. They lived it, I lived it, we lived it.

As I said, in my experience it was people going to Catholic church on Sunday, but then the rest of the week they were pretty much like everyone else.

But none of that really has to do with my point that even if we DO live a lifestyle of doing good works, serving, even prayer… If a person never experienced regeneration / spiritual birth, then none of those things are going to ultimately matter, because redemption does not come from our works or living a "good life" and if we think it is about that, then we completely misunderstand the Gospel. That's why I shared that video in my previous post.

The living a good life and good works absolutely DOES come, but as the FRUIT of salvation / new life. But thinking that we need to do those things in order to get saved is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Meriweather]

The living a good life and good works absolutely DOES come, but as the FRUIT of salvation / new life. But thinking that we need to do those things in order to get saved is putting the cart before the horse.

I wasn't aware some who go the 'Saved' route believe they must do good works first. Shrug, I don't see how it hurts them, though.

With redemption it is more, "We are called, we are chosen. We are Christ for one another" (from the Anthem hymn). Also, it is along the Biblical lines of, "I was hungry...thirsty...naked...sick...in prison..." Again, it is The Way of Life.

 

[Meriweather]

As I said, in my experience it was people going to Catholic church on Sunday, but then the rest of the week they were pretty much like everyone else.

What is wrong with being pretty much like everyone else? In has been my experience that 'everyone else', on the whole, are good people. What differences were you expecting?

 

[buttercup]

What is wrong with being pretty much like everyone else?

We are told throughout the Bible to be different than the world. Once we come to Christ, we are in the world, but not of the world. That theme of being different and set apart goes all the way back to the old testament, when God repeatedly told the Israelites to be set apart, and not do the same things that others were doing, worshiping false gods, doing all sorts of evil things.

There are so many scriptures on this teaching. But I don't even think of it as a command or teaching, so much as it is a truth that when we become born from above, we are no longer of this world, we are citizens of heaven, sons and daughters of God.

Here are a few:

Romans 12:2​

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 John 2:15-17​

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

John 15:19​

If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Philippians 2:15​

That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world

John 17:15-17​

I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

James 4:4​

Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Colossians 3:2​

Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.

Proverbs 1:15​

My son, do not walk in the way with them; hold back your foot from their paths


And to answer the other thing you said.....

In has been my experience that 'everyone else', on the whole, are good people. What differences were you expecting?

I disagree, but it depends on the standard we're going to by. If we're going by God's standard, people not only miss the mark, but there is so much evil and wickedness in this world. The bible says that there is no one who is truly good:

Romans 3:10​

As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23​

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ecclesiastes 7:20​

Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.


I mean, just turn on the news or look around. This world is a mess. It has been a mess for a very very long time. And it seems to be getting even worse in recent years.

So no, we are not supposed to be like this world, we are supposed to be different. The Bible also says we should be lights in this world, salt of the earth. That doesn't mean that we are perfect, of course not, but we are not supposed to be like everyone else… And if we are truly following Jesus, then we WON'T be like everyone else. We won't be doing things that the world considers normal.

But I think it's more than just not doing certain things, it's also being different through love, compassion, serving God and others instead of living a life of selfishness and focusing on material things. I'm sure you would agree with that.

 

[Meriweather]

There are so many scriptures on this teaching. But I don't even think of it as a command or teaching, so much as it is a truth that when we become born from above, we are no longer of this world, we are citizens of heaven, sons and daughters of God.

Which is how I see nearly everyone--as being born from above as sons and daughters of God. I agree with Jesus. People are the salt of the earth.

 

[Flash]

Jesus dying for our sins.

That is God taking responsibility for the evil that is caused by us having free will.

It hurt God to know that our free will will create so much evil but He takes the responsibility.

 

[Meriweather]

I mean, just turn on the news or look around. This world is a mess. It has been a mess for a very very long time. And it seems to be getting even worse in recent years.

The world may be a mess, but the people in my life are not. I do agree that the greedy and the powerful (whom I do not know) make life more painful than need be. That is why I treasure the ordinary, every day people, who touch my life each day.