Jesus died for your sins ??

[buttercup]

If the good person gets into heaven and the repentant murder gets into heaven that is the same reward.

No, that is unbiblical. There is salvation, but beyond that there are also rewards. In other words, someone can get to heaven (salvation) but have much fewer rewards than another person who also is in heaven. Everything we do in this life will be judged. Make no mistake, someone who lived a horrible life and was a murderer will not have the exact same eternal rewards as someone who lived a life of good actions, serving others, etc.

 

[Meriweather]

I think the problem in regard to Catholics with that idea (that no one knows their fate) is that it comes from an incorrect teaching or a lack of teaching on salvation. And this is very, very, very important.

To clarify: The Church teaches the Way to Eternal Life as it was handed down by Christ and the Apostles. The Church has no authority to teach the Way to Eternal Life by any other means.

We enter Eternal Life in the present and it continues on after we pass from this life.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we don't know who--if anyone--is in hell, because final judgement belongs to Christ.

 

[ding]

I'm sorry ding, but that is simply untrue and unbiblical. You have said that before and I am pretty sure I responded to that statement before, but I'll do it again because I don't want people to be misled. God doesn't want us to be unsure of our eternal fate. Why? For numerous reasons, starting with lack of assurance leading to worry, stressing and striving through our own efforts, which btw shows a misunderstanding of the entire Gospel.

There are a number of verses I could share on assurance of salvation, but here are just a couple. Note the bolded text:

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. ​

​

1 John 5:12-13​

​

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.​

​

Romans 8:16​

​

​

I think the problem in regard to Catholics with that idea (that no one knows their fate) is that it comes from an incorrect teaching or a lack of teaching on salvation. And this is very, very, very important.

Despite what the Catholic church teaches or doesn't teach, Jesus made it very clear that you must be born again. No one who is unregenerate (still in their flesh, their natural state) will see the kingdom of God. And here's the thing… when you are born again, you know it. There is no doubt or question about one's salvation when you are truly saved.

Please don't let your loyalty to a particular church become more important than what is actually true because salvation is very important. If someone is not sure of their salvation, then it sounds like they don't understand the Gospel. We are not saved through getting sprinkled with a little bit of water as a baby, or going through religious sacraments. You must be born again. Jesus made that very clear, read John 3.

That means not putting faith in your own works or in religion but getting truly reconciled to God. First there must be an understanding of one's true spiritual condition (a sinner in need of forgiveness) repentance which means changing direction, in other words deciding to turn away from evil and toward good, then receiving the gift of salvation by simply believing and trusting that JESUS paid the price for you. It involves a complete surrender to God, not a half-hearted religious thing, but a genuine change of mind/heart. We are saved by God's grace, through faith. And when we get saved we become a new creation, literally, and life will never be the same. Again, I'm bringing this up because you said we don't know our eternal fate, but that is not true, when you are a child of God, born from above, you know!

There's a hierarchy. Not everyone will experience it the same. That can only be established by God.

 

[ding]

At this point, I don't think that anyone has proven that it can't.

Thermodynamics says it can't. Do you even thermo?

 

[buttercup]

To clarify: The Church teaches the Way to Eternal Life as it was handed down by Christ and the Apostles. The Church has no authority to teach the Way to Eternal Life by any other means.

We enter Eternal Life in the present and it continues on after we pass from this life.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we don't know who--if anyone--is in hell, because final judgement belongs to Christ.

I wasn't talking about knowing other people's eternal destination. I never said anything about that, because I agree with you that we don't know for sure what is in other people's hearts, only God does. I was talking about assurance of our OWN salvation, that is what the Bible says we can have, and I posted two scriptures above backing that up.

 

[Clyde 154]

The biblical story of Eve, the first woman, bringing sin and death into the world is loosely based on the Pandora's box myth which pre-dates it.

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How do you conclude that Pandora's Box predates the record found in Genesis? The First Book of the Bible is an oral history as inspired to record by the Holy Spirit through Moses. No one can prove anything predates the record found in Genesis.....its all based upon conjecture, speculation and assumption. How can the beginning be predated?

Again.......prove how anything can predate the truth found in Genesis. How is any "oral" history passed down? By word.
"In the beginning was THE WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- Genesis 1:1

Those that cannot accept the record found Genesis as nothing but a myth based upon allegory cannot possibly be a devout Christian. Why?

The biblical writers who were inspired by God to record the history did not find the Genesis account or the person of Jesus to be "mythical" in nature. Especially the writings found in the New Testament record.....these writers quote from the book of Genesis numerous times. If you accept the record found throughout the Bible as being inspired by God then the account found in Genesis is a truthful account. If Genesis is not truthful then the entire Bible is based upon lies and deceit.

Creation of the Universe: Genesis 1:1 referenced in (John 1:3, Col. 1:16)

Creation of Adam and Eve: Genesis 1:2 referenced in (1 Tim. 2:13-14)

Marriage of Adam and Eve: Genesis 1:2 referenced in (1 Tim. 2:13)

Temptation the female: Genesis 3 referenced in (1 Tim 2:14)

Disobedience and sin of Adam: Genesis 3 referenced in (Rom. 5:12, 1 Cor. 15:22)

The sacrifices of Cain and Able: Genesis 4 referenced in (Heb. 11:4)

The birth of Seth Genesis 4 referenced in (Luke 3:38)

Translation of Enoch Genesis 5 referenced in (Heb. 11:5)

Marriage before the flood Genesis 6 referenced in (Luke 17:27)

The flood and destruction of man Genesis 7 referenced as literal truth in (Matt. 24:39)

Preservation of Noah and his family Genesis 8-9 referenced in (2 Peter 2:5) referenced as literal truth....not allegorical myth.

The genealogy of Shem Genesis 10 referenced in (Luke 3:35-36)

Birth of Abraham Genesis 11 referenced in (Luke 3:34)

The call of Abraham Genesis 12-13 referenced in (Heb. 11:8)

If you can't accept Genesis as truth.......then you can't accept Jesus because its all lies.

 

[buttercup]

There's a hierarchy. Not everyone will experience it the same. That can only be established by God.

Respectfully, I don't know what that has to do with what I posted? My main point was that we can have assurance of our salvation, and unless I misunderstood you, you said no one knows their fate.

 

[buttercup]

To clarify: The Church teaches the Way to Eternal Life as it was handed down by Christ and the Apostles. The Church has no authority to teach the Way to Eternal Life by any other means.

I didn't respond to this part in my previous post, so I wanted to reply again. Jesus taught that we must be born again. He made that very, very clear. John 3. In the Catholic Church (at least in my experience as a kid) no one even told me about my need for salvation, much less how to be saved. There was no talk about being born again, and to this day, if I were to listen to my relatives who still go to Catholic church, they believe that all you need to do is be baptized as an infant and go through the sacraments. That is not true and not biblical.

 

[Meriweather]

I wasn't talking about knowing other people's eternal destination. I never said anything about that, because I agree with you that we don't know for sure what is in other people's hearts, only God does. I was talking about assurance of our OWN salvation, that is what the Bible says we can have, and I posted two scriptures above backing that up.

We agree, and it is what the Church teaches. However, Jeremiah does caution us (and Jesus agreed) that the human heart is deceitful, and our own hearts are not exempt from that. Even so, we were taught a way that is not deceitful, and that is our hope/expectation.

 

[ding]

Respectfully, I don't know what that has to do with what I posted? My main point was that we can have assurance of our salvation, and unless I misunderstood you, you said no one knows their fate.

That is true but beyond that there is a hierarchy so even then your fate is unknown.

At any point along the journey you can either be moving towards God, away from God or be stagnant in your walk with God. If you recall not everyone got invited to the wedding feast. Some who thought they were invited were turned away.

 

[surada]

How do you conclude that Pandora's Box predates the record found in Genesis? The First Book of the Bible is an oral history as inspired to record by the Holy Spirit through Moses. No one can prove anything predates the record found in Genesis.....its all based upon conjecture, speculation and assumption. How can the beginning be predated?

Again.......prove how anything can predate the truth found in Genesis. How is any "oral" history passed down? By word.
"In the beginning was THE WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." -- Genesis 1:1

Those that cannot accept the record found Genesis as nothing but a myth based upon allegory cannot possibly be a devout Christian. Why?

The biblical writers who were inspired by God to record the history did not find the Genesis account or the person of Jesus to be "mythical" in nature. Especially the writings found in the New Testament record.....these writers quote from the book of Genesis numerous times. If you accept the record found throughout the Bible as being inspired by God then the account found in Genesis is a truthful account. If Genesis is not truthful then the entire Bible is based upon lies and deceit.

Creation of the Universe: Genesis 1:1 referenced in (John 1:3, Col. 1:16)

Creation of Adam and Eve: Genesis 1:2 referenced in (1 Tim. 2:13-14)

Marriage of Adam and Eve: Genesis 1:2 referenced in (1 Tim. 2:13)

Temptation the female: Genesis 3 referenced in (1 Tim 2:14)

Disobedience and sin of Adam: Genesis 3 referenced in (Rom. 5:12, 1 Cor. 15:22)

The sacrifices of Cain and Able: Genesis 4 referenced in (Heb. 11:4)

The birth of Seth Genesis 4 referenced in (Luke 3:38)

Translation of Enoch Genesis 5 referenced in (Heb. 11:5)

Marriage before the flood Genesis 6 referenced in (Luke 17:27)

The flood and destruction of man Genesis 7 referenced as literal truth in (Matt. 24:39)

Preservation of Noah and his family Genesis 8-9 referenced in (2 Peter 2:5) referenced as literal truth....not allegorical myth.

The genealogy of Shem Genesis 10 referenced in (Luke 3:35-36)

Birth of Abraham Genesis 11 referenced in (Luke 3:34)

The call of Abraham Genesis 12-13 referenced in (Heb. 11:8)

If you can't accept Genesis as truth.......then you can't accept Jesus because its all lies.

Genesis was written 850 years after the death of Moses and after the Babylonian exile... which is very odd because they did have a written language. Sumer did in 3000 BC.. and the Akkadians who predate the Babylonians did.

 

[buttercup]

That is true but beyond that there is a hierarchy so even then your fate is unknown.

At any point along the journey you can either be moving towards God, away from God or be stagnant in your walk with God. If you recall not everyone got invited to the wedding feast. Some who thought they were invited were turned away.

Yeah, I agree that beyond salvation there are varying eternal rewards, I mentioned that to Bluesman, so yes… In that sense we don't know for sure what awaits us. Which is actually a very interesting topic, about how our works in this life will be 'put through the fire' so to speak, to see if they have eternal value or not… but that's a topic for a whole other thread.

 

[ding]

Yeah, I agree that beyond salvation there are varying eternal rewards, I mentioned that to Bluesman, so yes… In that sense we don't know for sure what awaits us. Which is actually a very interesting topic, about how our works in this life will be 'put through the fire' so to speak, to see if they have eternal value or not… but that's a topic for a whole other thread.

It goes to BM's point that I must believe that everyone gets the exact same reward. Which was the point I was refuting.

 

[Meriweather]

I didn't respond to this part in my previous post, so I wanted to reply again. Jesus taught that we must be born again. He made that very, very clear. John 3. In the Catholic Church (at least in my experience as a kid) no one even told me about my need for salvation, much less how to be saved. There was no talk about being born again, and to this day, if I were to listen to my relatives who still go to Catholic church, they believe that all you need to do is be baptized as an infant and go through the sacraments. That is not true and not biblical.

Yes. Many non-Catholics are all about being 'saved', while in the Catholic faith, the word is 'redeemed' or redemption. We are the Body of Christ, and we enter into this Body, this Kingdom through baptism (born again of water and the Holy Spirit). Catholics grow up knowing they have been redeemed, and therefore it is puzzling that a redeemed person needs to be 'saved'. Nor does anyone who has already been born again need to be born again yet a second time.

Are you familiar with the Sacraments? These are all based on Jesus' life. Jesus was baptized. He announced the forgiveness of sins. He instituted the Last Supper (do this in memory of me). He promised us the Holy Spirit. He chose Twelve Apostles for a special priesthood. He taught us about marriage. He healed. Catholics are immersed in the life of Jesus--what is known as a Sacramental life because we follow closely in his ways and what he did. I am puzzled as to why you have the opinion that this is not Biblical! It is clearly presented in the Gospels.

 

[emilynghiem]

I don’t get it ??
So every child rapist , murderer , serial killer or anyone who committed any violent act that resulted in the injury or death of anyone is 100 percent cleared ??
Even 2,000 yrs after Jesus ?? You can kill 60 folks and just say you’re already cleared by Jesus
Wtf ???

Dear Quasar44
Being freed and forgiven SPIRITUALLY does not mean you don't owe PHYSICAL restitution or penalties for debts and damages you caused to others.
The forgiveness relieves you of stressful emotions and burdens internally that you suffer.

The suffering and physical/financial/legal damages of other people are still governed by natural laws of justice which civil and govt laws are based on.

Examples: compare the cases of David Berkowitz and Amber Guyger.
www.ariseandshine.org

Why Did Some Media Censor Brandt Jean's Courtroom Words?

After several clicks and searches we did find full-length versions of the video provided by Fox News and the Dallas Morning News. It makes us wonder why some media felt the need to excise Brandt’s words, which were so incredible?

religionunplugged.com

Forgiveness helps relieve the spiritual injuries but does not change the physical penalties under laws that govern external society and relations/rights of others affected.

 

[buttercup]

Yes. Many non-Catholics are all about being 'saved', while in the Catholic faith, the word is 'redeemed' or redemption. We are the Body of Christ, and we enter into this Body, this Kingdom through baptism (born again of water and the Holy Spirit). Catholics grow up knowing they have been redeemed, and therefore it is puzzling that a redeemed person needs to be 'saved'. Nor does anyone who has already been born again need to be born again yet a second time.

Are you familiar with the Sacraments? These are all based on Jesus' life. Jesus was baptized. He announced the forgiveness of sins. He instituted the Last Supper (do this in memory of me). He promised us the Holy Spirit. He chose Twelve Apostles for a special priesthood. He taught us about marriage. He healed. Catholics are immersed in the life of Jesus--what is known as a Sacramental life because we follow closely in his ways and what he did. I am puzzled as to why you have the opinion that this is not Biblical! It is clearly presented in the Gospels.

To me the specific word used is not what is important, the reality behind the word is what is important. We can call it redeemed if you want, but that doesn't change my point. The Catholic Church never taught me about my need for redemption, and as I said, it is not about going through religious rituals.

What do you think is a redeemed person? The reason I ask you that is because you said it is puzzling to you that a redeemed person needs to be saved, or that someone who is born again need to be born again a second time. Of course no one needs to be born again two times (it's a one-time thing), but your statement makes me wonder what you believe being born again means.

Again, it is not about being sprinkled with water as a baby. Jesus was baptized as a full grown adult, fully immersed in water, but it's not the act itself that does it, baptism is an outward symbol of something that has already happened inside of us. And yes, I'm familiar with the sacraments but respectfully, that's not what needs to happen for redemption/salvation. We've had this conversation before, and it doesn't look like we are ever going to agree on this so I don't want to spend too much time on this, in my earlier post to ding I already talked about salvation /being born again, so I'll just point back to post #141.

 

[Meriweather]

To me the specific word used is not what is important, the reality behind the word is what is important. We can call it redeemed if you want, but that doesn't change my point. The Catholic Church never taught me about my need for redemption, and as I said, it is not about going through religious rituals.

The Catholic Church never taught you about baptism and being adopted into the Body of Christ? What classes did you attend? I did go to Catholic school, but even so when I was pregnant and knew my children would be baptized, I attended baptism preparation classes as well. This also crops up in homilies from time to time.

 

[Meriweather]

Again, it is not about being sprinkled with water as a baby.

Sprinkled??!! You have got to be kidding.

 

[Meriweather]

What do you think is a redeemed person?

Anyone who is baptized into the Body of Christ has been redeemed. Christ is our redemption.

 

[Meriweather]

and as I said, it is not about going through religious rituals.

Just a ritual? Buttercup, it is not a ritual, but a way of living life. Do you think of being "Born Again" as a mere ritual? Another way of looking at it: A wedding is a marriage ceremony/rite, but marriage is a way of life. In the same way, 'Confession' may be a rite, but repentance is a way of life.