Jesus died for your sins ??

[buttercup]

Which is how I see nearly everyone--as being born from above as sons and daughters of God. I agree with Jesus. People are the salt of the earth.

No, that is simply unbiblical. In fact the Bible says the exact opposite.

Being saved or born from above is not automatic. Unless one is a baby or a young child, everyone needs to make the decision to receive salvation through Jesus, it is not automatic. And it does not come by going to church or being baptized as an infant.

And no, Jesus does not say that people are salt of the earth. He is talking about HIS followers, not people in general. I just posted a ton of scriptures that clearly state that the world lives by their own standards and that Christians are supposed to be different. You didn't acknowledge those scriptures at all.

 

[buttercup]

The world may be a mess, but the people in my life are not. I do agree that the greedy and the powerful (whom I do not know) make life more painful than need be. That is why I treasure the ordinary, every day people, who touch my life each day.

Well yes, I agree that not everyone is a mess. Of course there are varying degrees, and people who are worse than others, but that still misses the point that worldly standards don't matter in the grand scheme of things. The only standard that matters is God's. And by God's standard, ALL fall short, that's why everyone needs forgiveness/redemption.

 

[Meriweather]

And no, Jesus does not say that people are salt of the earth. He is talking about HIS followers, not people in general. I just posted a ton of scriptures that clearly state that the world lives by their own standards and that Christians are supposed to be different. You didn't acknowledge those scriptures at all.

As I noted before, the people in my world (not 'the world') are good people, the salt of the earth. Normal, every day people who extend a smile, a word, a helping hand. Neither they nor I are 'worldly' people. Many people are not. It appears you live in a different society, and I am sorry about that. I believe most of us carry a divine spark and I believe in finding Jesus in the people I meet because I do believe we are meant to be Christlike to one another. Jesus was not patronizing, he was kind and helpful to the every day person.

 

[buttercup]

As I noted before, the people in my world (not 'the world') are good people, the salt of the earth. Normal, every day people who extend a smile, a word, a helping hand. Neither they nor I are 'worldly' people. Many people are not. It appears you live in a different society, and I am sorry about that. I believe most of us carry a divine spark and I believe in finding Jesus in the people I meet because I do believe we are meant to be Christlike to one another. Jesus was not patronizing, he was kind and helpful to the every day person.

Meriwether, you're misunderstanding me. As I said in an earlier post, yes, of course there are varying degrees when it comes to goodness in people, but whose standard are we going by?

Don't get me wrong. Just because I was trying to make the clear point that the Bible says no one is good does not mean that I am against people or that I have a negative view of people in general.

No, I want to make it very clear that that is not what I believe. Have you ever read the book Mere Christianity? I agree with CS Lewis's take on it. Even though we are all sinners who fall short of God's perfect standard, that doesn't mean that we are all bad, we also all have within us a God-given conscience. In other words, a built in compass for right and wrong.

That is why sometimes people do good things, and sometimes people do bad things, when they ignore their conscience or it becomes damaged. In other words, it's not all one way or all the other. And I hope I didn't give the impression that I think it is only bad.

We are all immensely valuable because God created us and loves us, so much so that He was willing to give his life and pay the price for us.

I have no doubt that you have people in your life who help others and do good things, just as I have people in my life that are that way also. But that doesn't change the point that I was making that the only standard that matters is God's, and according to the Bible – very clearly stated – no one is good (all the time) and everyone misses the mark.

In fact, it is that realization that needs to happen first before we can truly be redeemed, because unless one understands their true spiritual condition, they're not going to see the need to surrender to God and put their full faith and trust in Jesus.

You reminded me of a CS Lewis quote, about understanding our true spiritual condition as opposed to thinking we're a "good person." I'm going to go look for it and I'll post it when I find it.

 

[buttercup]

Here's the quote that came to mind. Well, there are two quotes, so I'll post both.

"A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense, really. You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are sleeping. You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working properly: while you are making them you cannot see them. You can understand the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk."

----

“No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good. A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is. After all, you find out the strength of army by fighting against it, not by giving in. You find out the strength of a wind by trying to walk against it, not by lying down. A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness — they have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means — the only complete realist.”

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

 

[K9Buck]

I don’t get it ??
So every child rapist , murderer , serial killer or anyone who committed any violent act that resulted in the injury or death of anyone is 100 percent cleared ??
Even 2,000 yrs after Jesus ?? You can kill 60 folks and just say you’re already cleared by Jesus
Wtf ???

I don't believe it works like that. Do you even believe in Jesus?

 

[Meriweather]

Meriwether, you're misunderstanding me. As I said in an earlier post, yes, of course there are varying degrees when it comes to goodness in people, but whose standard are we going by?

No, I am not misunderstanding you, just offering another perspective for differentiating between what is of the world and what is of God. The world says it is okay to divorce, to abort, to have a different system of worldly justice for the rich and powerful than there is for the poor. The world seems to encourage a focus on what is best for me over what is best for others. The world encourages lawsuits, get rich quick, riches as a priority, sexual pleasures.

All of the above can be ignored, and I believe people are happier when they ignore it. Remain faithful to one's spouse, welcome children, embrace the responsibilities that come with sex, live simply so others may simply live, that if anything, justice is more strict with the rich and powerful if it cannot remain equal. All of this--and more--can be done while living in this world. We can discern the will of God and live by His will, ignoring what the world permits.

This is Kingdom living, God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven. We welcome with love each person/stranger we encounter. We not only see Jesus in them, we represent Jesus to them. It is a beautiful world, God's world--or what He wants for us. It is an oasis on this planet.

 

[Meriweather]

Being saved or born from above is not automatic. Unless one is a baby or a young child, everyone needs to make the decision to receive salvation through Jesus, it is not automatic. And it does not come by going to church or being baptized as an infant.

Let's consider the power of the Holy Spirit who is present and with us in baptism. For me, and as far back as I can remember (toddler years) redemption was never a decision to be made, but rather a recognition of what was. With it came responsibilities, just like how responsibilities came with being the big sister. As I keep saying, A Way of Life.

For whatever reason, 'redemption' never clicked with you, but being saved did. I don't know about you, but I credit that to the Holy Spirit. As a teen (after reading the Book of Mormon) I prayed as the introduction recommended. The response I got from the Holy Spirit was clear: "This is not for you." The reason I emphasize "you" is because the Holy Spirit did not say the LDS faith wasn't meant for anyone, the word was that it wasn't for me. As an adult, I can readily see why I would have problems with it.

In the same way, I see the Holy Spirit touching you and drawing you into a Church that connects best with you, because being Saved resonates more soundly with you than redemption. You could actually sense being Born Again when you were an adult, something you clearly didn't feel/recognize as a child. You needed that, and I am glad it came to you.

However, there is no need to throw mud at the Catholic faith in redemption, in following in the steps of Jesus' life through the Sacraments, claiming we don't read the Bible, etc. There are reasons to criticize and improve any Church, but none of the above is a reason. The Catholic Church may not be for you, just as the LDS Church may not be for me--but that is no reason to claim it is wrong for everyone. Let's trust in the Holy Spirit to bring people to the place where God can work best with His unique child.

 

[Blues Man]

No. Says the people who had to work through it 2000 years ago. First they had a problem with understanding Jesus was God. Then once they accepted that they had a problem with Jesus being human. It was actually a bigger problem. But eventually they worked through it.

I think people are little smarter today than they were 2000 years ago.

 

[Blues Man]

I have. Many times. Just not to your liking because your liking is illogical. There is no perception of God that you will accept because your perception of God is illogical. You have never even tried to perceive God which is why you have no perception of God. Which is why there is no evidence you will accept for the existence of God despite all the evidence around you and in you.

No you haven't.

And as i have said I don't know if gods exist or not.

I certainly won't take your word for it

 

[Blues Man]

No, that is unbiblical. There is salvation, but beyond that there are also rewards. In other words, someone can get to heaven (salvation) but have much fewer rewards than another person who also is in heaven. Everything we do in this life will be judged. Make no mistake, someone who lived a horrible life and was a murderer will not have the exact same eternal rewards as someone who lived a life of good actions, serving others, etc.

Gee a couple less privileges in an eternal paradise doesn't sound like much of a difference to me

 

[ding]

I think people are little smarter today than they were 2000 years ago.

Actually... physiologically man is about the same over the last 10,000 years. Maybe what you meant to say was more knowledgeable. But my point was that I didn't say so. It was a common belief 2,000 years ago. You said, I say so. That was incorrect.

 

[ding]

No you haven't.

And as i have said I don't know if gods exist or not.

I certainly won't take your word for it

Sure I have. It's not a coincidence the universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago being created from nothing and hardwired to produce intelligence.

With that said, I wouldn't believe in polytheism either.

 

[Blues Man]

Actually... physiologically man is about the same over the last 10,000 years. Maybe what you meant to say was more knowledgeable. But my point was that I didn't say so. It was a common belief 2,000 years ago. You said, I say so. That was incorrect.

We know more today than we did 2000 years ago. And We don't just know more but people tend to think more critically because more people are literate and educated and don't have to rely on what a small number of people tell them.

And so what if it was a common belief? All that demonstrates is the power that societies have over belief.

 

[Blues Man]

Sure I have. It's not a coincidence the universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago being created from nothing and hardwired to produce intelligence.

With that said, I wouldn't believe in polytheism either.

We don't know how the universe came to be.

the god theory is no more proven than any other theory

 

[ding]

We know more today than we did 2000 years ago. And We don't just know more but people tend to think more critically because more people are literate and educated and don't have to rely on what a small number of people tell them.

And so what if it was a common belief? All that demonstrates is the power that societies have over belief.

Knowing more does not mean we are smarter. It means we have more knowledge.

We know today that the universe was created from nothing ~14 billion years ago with life and intelligence being hardwired into the fabric of existence. And that still hasn't stopped you from thinking this was just a coincidence. So are you really smarter than men 2000 years ago? Even they knew this was no accident.

 

[ding]

We don't know how the universe came to be.

the god theory is no more proven than any other theory

Look at you denying science. Are you sure you are smarter than men 2,000 years ago?

 

[Meriweather]

I think people are little smarter today than they were 2000 years ago.

I don't. I do think we have more knowledge than we had 2000 years ago, but I don't think we are smarter or even wiser.

 

[Blues Man]

I don't. I do think we have more knowledge than we had 2000 years ago, but I don't think we are smarter or even wiser.

I disagree.

 

[Blues Man]

Look at you denying science. Are you sure you are smarter than men 2,000 years ago?

All we know is what happened a few nanoseconds after the universe came to be.

We do not know what happened in the nanosecond before the universe came to be so we cannot ever know how the universe was created.

It's all educated guesses.