Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

[irosie91]

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

 

[irosie91]

The long-standing consensus of scholars of all Christian denomination about the dates when the New Testament books were composed make it clear that Jesus was not a Christian He was a pious, radical Jew from Galilee who lived and died within the apocalyptic branch of Judaism. The neo-Platonic subtleties debated outside the Jerusalem community led by Jesus' brother, James, are a completely separate issue.

it is not entirely clear to me that "James" is an historic figure in the minds of
all or most Christian scholars

 

[GreatestIam]

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

Strange how you run and hide the moment I use the bible to refute your garbage.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Dad killing his kid bestows eternal life on dead people.

I remember thinking that when I was a child - that I didn't want anything to do with a "father" who would do that to his "only begotten son". And then to learn that he wasn't even "begotten".

Bizarre superstition.
Its a


Bizarre superstition.
Its a truly bizarre superstition.

And quite immoral if it were true.

Strange that no Christian wonders why God sent a son instead of doing what a human would do and that is have the father die instead of the son as should happen.

Christian praise God for doing what they would condemn a man for doing.

That double standard shows just how corrupted Christian morality is.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[

No but you have to accept an immoral concept and the absurd notion that God can die.

Only an idiot God would turn around and die for those he condemned.

Regards
DL

No God can not die, but He had to come in the flesh and be in a body that could die.

This is the beauty of it, and when the light bulb turns on in your soul of what God really did for us is a goose bump moment.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..

It does seem hard to relate to many things that you are questioning ( which is really good by the way )

When the Holy spirit becomes part of us, we begin to truly understand it all..
All you have to do is ask God into your heart and He will show you the truth, not all at once but in His time not ours...
right now it seems that you have much doubt , and we all do at times



.

His only begotten was just a shell as you wrote above so it is quite easy and not worth much to kill a shell.

God can produce as many shells as he likes.

But if you want to believe he would sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease his own evil temper, then by all means, believe that idiotic notion.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satan’s test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL

RC's do not believe in Substitutionary Atonement.

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

No, he is our Savior due to he picked peace instead of war, I do not think he took my sins upon him, and I have never been taught that. I was taught we are responsible for our sins and need to confess them, and turn from them. I have heard many Protestants say Christ took our sins, that makes people very irresponsible in my opinion.
This is according to the RC teaching I had. You may of had different.

The doctrine is not taught in the Bible and is manifestly contrary to the nature of God, who is all goodness and who cannot punish the innocent, all-holy Son of God. This understanding of substitutionary atonement is not compatible with the Catholic faith. One can only say that Christ "took our punishment" in a poetic rather than in a literal sense.

An understanding of substitutionary atonement that is compatible with the Catholic faith is known as vicarious satisfaction. According to this view, Christ allowed himself to be killed by men (not by God) and by allowing himself to be killed he offered his life to God as a sacrifice of love. Because of the infinite merit of the sacrifice (due to his divinity), the Father accepted the sacrifice as making satisfaction for the sins of the world. Christ thus made satisfaction for us vicariously but was not "punished by God," who due to his omniscience cannot regard an infinitely holy Son as anything other than infinitely holy.

EWTN.com - The Divinity of Christ & Substitutionary Atonement

So you do not need a savior but accept him as such anyway, while changing the term. Rather semantic and hypocritical as seen from here.

If God/Jesus is divine then he cannot die.

Jesus also offered nothing as he was chosen and had no choice and he confirms that in scriptures by saying he was doing his fathers will and not his own.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Without Jesus and his so called sacrifice. Catholics have no religion and no salvation which they say we need.

If you want to chat, do not lie or distort your dogma as you tried to do here.

Regards
DL

Dear GreatestIam
1. Jesus means Salvation in spiritual terms, or Justice in secular terms.
Don't people need to receive forgiveness and healing in order to maintain PEACE.
Don't all people need to work together to establishment agreement on JUSTICE.

Saying we don't need Jesus is like saying we don't need to forgive in order to receive Peace and Justice.
I find people cannot fully forgive all things WITHOUT DIVINE HELP.

2. Jesus can follow God's will and accept that his life is for the purpose of divine sacrifice
to break the vicious cycle of retribution

Why are you saying it cannot be both? Both God's will and a sacrifice?

3. RE: hiding immorality
GreatestIam are you projecting onto me?
Are you hiding some fault on your side, but telling yourself I am hiding something?
Is that a form of hiding your own?

I have answered fully and transparently
If you see something "immoral" in what I say or how I explain it,
can you please point it out SPECIFICALLY so it is NOT HIDDEN.

I would like all faults to be addressed openly so they can be fixed.
GreatestIam if you see something contradictory, please point it out
SPECIFICALLY so I can correct it. What do you see wrong in what I said?

Thanks GreatestIam

How do you figure that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow justice?

Is that how you think our legal system should work?

Regards
DL

 

[irosie91]

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

Strange how you run and hide the moment I use the bible to refute your garbage.

Regards
DL

just for curiosity-----what are you calling "garbage" """greatest,"""? ie---what did
you refute?

 

[GreatestIam]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satan’s test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL

"greaest" your analysis of Christian theology is utterly idiotic-------this stuff
is WAY beyond you and what ever imam farted in your ears.

I see no argument against my analysis so I guess that you could not formulate one.

Show the justice in punishing the4 innocent instead of the guilty or tuck tail and run.

Regards
DL

 

[irosie91]

Dad killing his kid bestows eternal life on dead people.

I remember thinking that when I was a child - that I didn't want anything to do with a "father" who would do that to his "only begotten son". And then to learn that he wasn't even "begotten".

Bizarre superstition.
Its a


Bizarre superstition.
Its a truly bizarre superstition.

And quite immoral if it were true.

Strange that no Christian wonders shy God sent a son instead of doing what a human would do and that is have the father die instead of the son as should happen.

Christian praise God for doing what they would condemn a man for doing.

That double standard shows just how corrupted Christian morality is.

Regards
DL

You made no point "greatest" other than provide evidence that you are
very shallow in your thinking. Christian theology sees Jesus as RETURNING
to his role as "son of God" in paradise---he played his role as a divine entity
on earth

 

[GreatestIam]

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

Strange how you run and hide the moment I use the bible to refute your garbage.

Regards
DL

just for curiosity-----what are you calling "garbage" """greatest,"""? ie---what did
you refute?

The notion that Catholics , like all Christians, would reject the sacrifice of Jesus and not try to ride that scapegoat into heaven.

All who fly the cross want to ride Jesus into heaven.

As scriptures say, the whole world will be deceived by Satan. I modify that to the whole Christian world, by the immorality of substitutionary atonement in this case.

It is immoral yet all Christians think it moral.

Satan wins.

Regards
DL

 

[irosie91]

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

why do YOU endorse my post about Constantine, "greatest"??? What
is your----POV?

 

[GreatestIam]

Dad killing his kid bestows eternal life on dead people.

I remember thinking that when I was a child - that I didn't want anything to do with a "father" who would do that to his "only begotten son". And then to learn that he wasn't even "begotten".

Bizarre superstition.
Its a


Bizarre superstition.
Its a truly bizarre superstition.

And quite immoral if it were true.

Strange that no Christian wonders shy God sent a son instead of doing what a human would do and that is have the father die instead of the son as should happen.

Christian praise God for doing what they would condemn a man for doing.

That double standard shows just how corrupted Christian morality is.

Regards
DL

You made no point "greatest" other than provide evidence that you are
very shallow in your thinking. Christian theology sees Jesus as RETURNING
to his role as "son of God" in paradise---he played his role as a divine entity
on earth

A bit of R&R is hardly a sacrifice.

You say I think in a shallow way.

Let's test that shall we.

As above, so below.

If you only had one son and decided a death was required, would you send your son or would you step up yourself for the punishment you demand?

IOW. Who should bury who?

Should parents bury their children or should children bury their parents?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

why do YOU endorse my post about Constantine, "greatest"??? What
is your----POV?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Regards
DL

 

[Eaglewings]

[

No but you have to accept an immoral concept and the absurd notion that God can die.

Only an idiot God would turn around and die for those he condemned.

Regards
DL

No God can not die, but He had to come in the flesh and be in a body that could die.

This is the beauty of it, and when the light bulb turns on in your soul of what God really did for us is a goose bump moment.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..

It does seem hard to relate to many things that you are questioning ( which is really good by the way )

When the Holy spirit becomes part of us, we begin to truly understand it all..
All you have to do is ask God into your heart and He will show you the truth, not all at once but in His time not ours...
right now it seems that you have much doubt , and we all do at times



.

His only begotten was just a shell as you wrote above so it is quite easy and not worth much to kill a shell.

God can produce as many shells as he likes.

But if you want to believe he would sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease his own evil temper, then by all means, believe that idiotic notion.

Regards
DL

A shell that covers our spirit~ We all have temporary shells that get sick and turn into dust.
God sent his son as He had to for the ultimate sacrifice so that our spirits may continue on after our shell withers away .

Have you ever had a close member die?
Sorta opens your eyes to how fragile we really are.

Do you understand about the spiritual realm around us? A continuous war going on 24/7 casting doubt and fear on us. Jesus took the horrible pain, not only because of our eternity but also to show us how we can live through pain and have faith in God.

 

[PK1]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

DL

---
You have an interesting point, from a logical perspective, but why dwell on ancient myths and imaginary demons/gods?

Religions have little to do with contemporary "morality", and everything to do with invented stories that supported the lifestyles of the ignorant "authorities".
And if you're uneducated & gullible, as were/are the believers, then you can enjoy the sugary thoughts about going to heaven after your body ceases to operate as a biological system, which includes your brain & mind.
.

 

[irosie91]

Dad killing his kid bestows eternal life on dead people.

I remember thinking that when I was a child - that I didn't want anything to do with a "father" who would do that to his "only begotten son". And then to learn that he wasn't even "begotten".

Bizarre superstition.
Its a


Bizarre superstition.
Its a truly bizarre superstition.

And quite immoral if it were true.

Strange that no Christian wonders shy God sent a son instead of doing what a human would do and that is have the father die instead of the son as should happen.

Christian praise God for doing what they would condemn a man for doing.

That double standard shows just how corrupted Christian morality is.

Regards
DL

You made no point "greatest" other than provide evidence that you are
very shallow in your thinking. Christian theology sees Jesus as RETURNING
to his role as "son of God" in paradise---he played his role as a divine entity
on earth

A bit of R&R is hardly a sacrifice.

You say I think in a shallow way.

Let's test that shall we.

As above, so below.

If you only had one son and decided a death was required, would you send your son or would you step up yourself for the punishment you demand?

IOW. Who should bury who?

Should parents bury their children or should children bury their parents?

Regards
DL

now you are getting Idiotic------and engaging in ascribing human type forms
to God

 

[Eaglewings]

RC's do not believe in Substitutionary Atonement.

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

No, he is our Savior due to he picked peace instead of war, I do not think he took my sins upon him, and I have never been taught that. I was taught we are responsible for our sins and need to confess them, and turn from them. I have heard many Protestants say Christ took our sins, that makes people very irresponsible in my opinion.
This is according to the RC teaching I had. You may of had different.

The doctrine is not taught in the Bible and is manifestly contrary to the nature of God, who is all goodness and who cannot punish the innocent, all-holy Son of God. This understanding of substitutionary atonement is not compatible with the Catholic faith. One can only say that Christ "took our punishment" in a poetic rather than in a literal sense.

An understanding of substitutionary atonement that is compatible with the Catholic faith is known as vicarious satisfaction. According to this view, Christ allowed himself to be killed by men (not by God) and by allowing himself to be killed he offered his life to God as a sacrifice of love. Because of the infinite merit of the sacrifice (due to his divinity), the Father accepted the sacrifice as making satisfaction for the sins of the world. Christ thus made satisfaction for us vicariously but was not "punished by God," who due to his omniscience cannot regard an infinitely holy Son as anything other than infinitely holy.

EWTN.com - The Divinity of Christ & Substitutionary Atonement

So you do not need a savior but accept him as such anyway, while changing the term. Rather semantic and hypocritical as seen from here.

If God/Jesus is divine then he cannot die.

Jesus also offered nothing as he was chosen and had no choice and he confirms that in scriptures by saying he was doing his fathers will and not his own.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Without Jesus and his so called sacrifice. Catholics have no religion and no salvation which they say we need.

If you want to chat, do not lie or distort your dogma as you tried to do here.

Regards
DL

Dear GreatestIam
1. Jesus means Salvation in spiritual terms, or Justice in secular terms.
Don't people need to receive forgiveness and healing in order to maintain PEACE.
Don't all people need to work together to establishment agreement on JUSTICE.

Saying we don't need Jesus is like saying we don't need to forgive in order to receive Peace and Justice.
I find people cannot fully forgive all things WITHOUT DIVINE HELP.

2. Jesus can follow God's will and accept that his life is for the purpose of divine sacrifice
to break the vicious cycle of retribution

Why are you saying it cannot be both? Both God's will and a sacrifice?

3. RE: hiding immorality
GreatestIam are you projecting onto me?
Are you hiding some fault on your side, but telling yourself I am hiding something?
Is that a form of hiding your own?

I have answered fully and transparently
If you see something "immoral" in what I say or how I explain it,
can you please point it out SPECIFICALLY so it is NOT HIDDEN.

I would like all faults to be addressed openly so they can be fixed.
GreatestIam if you see something contradictory, please point it out
SPECIFICALLY so I can correct it. What do you see wrong in what I said?

Thanks GreatestIam

How do you figure that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow justice?

Is that how you think our legal system should work?

Regards
DL

This is what is so humbling about Jesus, and why so many religions say that He is not the Messiah. Because of not acting like royalty, as a material king while He was growing up, and dying with 2 criminals on the cross.
He showed us a humble life that you don't have to be rich to secede.
As far as killing your own son..... it had to happen to build a bridge between us a sinning people and Holy God.

.

 

[GreatestIam]

[

No but you have to accept an immoral concept and the absurd notion that God can die.

Only an idiot God would turn around and die for those he condemned.

Regards
DL

No God can not die, but He had to come in the flesh and be in a body that could die.

This is the beauty of it, and when the light bulb turns on in your soul of what God really did for us is a goose bump moment.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..

It does seem hard to relate to many things that you are questioning ( which is really good by the way )

When the Holy spirit becomes part of us, we begin to truly understand it all..
All you have to do is ask God into your heart and He will show you the truth, not all at once but in His time not ours...
right now it seems that you have much doubt , and we all do at times



.

His only begotten was just a shell as you wrote above so it is quite easy and not worth much to kill a shell.

God can produce as many shells as he likes.

But if you want to believe he would sacrifice himself, to himself, to appease his own evil temper, then by all means, believe that idiotic notion.

Regards
DL

A shell that covers our spirit~ We all have temporary shells that get sick and turn into dust.
God sent his son as He had to for the ultimate sacrifice so that our spirits may continue on after our shell withers away .

Have you ever had a close member die?
Sorta opens your eyes to how fragile we really are.

Do you understand about the spiritual realm around us? A continuous war going on 24/7 casting doubt and fear on us. Jesus took the horrible pain, not only because of our eternity but also to show us how we can live through pain and have faith in God.

This is all about death for sure. Justice as well.

As above, so below.

If you only had one son and decided a death was required, would you send your son or would you step up yourself for the punishment you demand?

IOW. Who should bury who?

Should parents bury their children or should children bury their parents?

Regards
DL

 

[Eaglewings]

This is all about death for sure. Justice as well.

As above, so below.

If you only had one son and decided a death was required, would you send your son or would you step up yourself for the punishment you demand?

IOW. Who should bury who?

Should parents bury their children or should children bury their parents?

Regards
DL

Why do parents send their son into battle ? To win the war so that we shall live in peace.

 

[Eaglewings]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

DL

---
You have an interesting point, from a logical perspective, but why dwell on ancient myths and imaginary demons/gods?

Religions have little to do with contemporary "morality", and everything to do with invented stories that supported the lifestyles of the ignorant "authorities".
And if you're uneducated & gullible, as were/are the believers, then you can enjoy the sugary thoughts about going to heaven after your body ceases to operate as a biological system, which includes your brain & mind.
.

I have a masters, there are doctors, lawyers, scientists, ect that have been touched by Gods spirit.

It is the closed off minds / spirits, who think they are so much smarter than everyone else who have to get their words in on every thread about God.
If your so against it, why waste your intelligent mind in ( as you think) such a trivial thread? Or are you searching without knowing it?



.