Is anybody old enough to remember?

[Dogmaphobe]

◈ What is the real relevance to the question (Palestinian 'vs' something else)?

The relevance is obvious. Arab propagandists realized that as long as people in the west viewed the situation of Arabs against the Jews, they would understand who was the Goliath and who was the David. In order to craft their propaganda to appeal to our western sensibilities, they needed to create an illusion that reversed that perception, so they invented this brand new underdog realizing that it is much easier to convince people to rally around the underdog instead of the bully.


It is all a sleight of hand created to decieve.

 

[Oz and the Orchestra]

Before Israel occupied what?

Those dark, dark places in his mind by the looks of it.


It's almost comical with some of these profoundly ignorant people who have been influenced by the antisemitic culture around them. There is a famous piece written in the late 40s by King Abdullah called "As the Arabs See the Jews", and it contains the usual laundry lists of complaints based on half truths, omission of pertinent information, questionable framing and all the propaganda talking points we see today. Not once does he mention a Palestinian people. He talks only of Arabs, and that is because there WERE no people who called themselves Palestinian at the time.

Why this subject is so difficult to comprehend for some people really baffles me. Does their stupidity make them more likely to be antisemitic or does their antisemitism make them stupid?

Listen Einstein don't call me anti-Semitic, you've got a nerve, I have fought my whole life against all forms of racism
even when racism was fashionable I called it out.
Just in the last fortnight on this very forum,I have challenged antisemitism several times. Sunni Man's posts carry a Holocaust denial vid. Have you ever challenged it? - NO!
Political chic posted a thread totally supporting a potential Ambassador to Germany with a history of antisemitic views.
Did you challenge her? - NO!
A thread by 'Professor' that started "Anybody interested in Evolution" Then descended into him ranting Holocaust denial. I challenged did you? - NO!
We were having an intelligent debate as to whether Palestine existed before modern day Israel, in which it can easily be proven it did, but I will come back to that. There is nothing antisemitic about stating it did, it is just a matter of historical fact. So I will thank you to keep your filthy assertions to yourself and try rooting out real antisemitism.

 

[flacaltenn]

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU

Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election.. You're living 15 YEARS ago now... The only reason Hamas won all those seats is that they BOYCOTTED the previous elections.. And the popular vote diff was only a few percent.. So NO -- Hamas is not a recognized leadership even BY the Palestinians..

You probably didn't read my post where the EXIT POLLS from that elections asked "Should Hamas drop their extreme demands on Israel's existence"?? Over 70% responded yes.. Think it's a few pages back.. You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...

 

[Oz and the Orchestra]

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU

Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election.. You're living 15 YEARS ago now... The only reason Hamas won all those seats is that they BOYCOTTED the previous elections.. And the popular vote diff was only a few percent.. So NO -- Hamas is not a recognized leadership even BY the Palestinians..

You probably didn't read my post where the EXIT POLLS from that elections asked "Should Hamas drop their extreme demands on Israel's existence"?? Over 70% responded yes.. Think it's a few pages back.. You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...

“Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election”.

60% is a very respectable majority. How many US Presidents get 60%. British governments of late never get 40%. But again this is not the issue as you say in contradicting your self-

“And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL... “


So why mention it?

You Americans having lost the argument always do the same thing. You digress to other subjects that have nothing to do with the original in attempting to 'muddy the water'. Your another 'political chic' going off on 20 different tangents to try and cloud the issue.

The issue here is quite simply did Palestine exist before the modern state of Israel?

That is all! That is it!
The answer is an emphatic YES!

RoccoR in trying to refute the above has actually proven it-

“I have, at various times, gone back more than a thousand years in history. And I don't see where → prior to the late 19th Century and 20th Century → that the inhabitants of the undefined region of "Palestine" habitually referred to themselves as "Palestinians."

“I have seen, where (in translation) the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"


He admits that from the 19th century (i.e. 1800) the inhabitants DID refer to themselves as Palestinians.
That is 148 years before the State of Israel came into being.

He goes on “the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"

So even in Roman times the land was called Palestine and just as folk in France call themselves French, people born into Palestine would call themselves Palestinian, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim!

As for your final offering-

“You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...”

A bit childish even for a yank!

First off, - I don't give a toss what Palestinians might want, as I've said it is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
Facts are facts, black on white, you can neither smell nor taste them.

 

[flacaltenn]

“Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election”.

60% is a very respectable majority. How many US Presidents get 60%. British governments of late never get 40%. But again this is not the issue as you say in contradicting your self-

Nawww... I wasn't clear.. The TURNOUT was 60% of registered voters which is GREAT.. But when you take 1/2 of 60% --- that means that 30% of Palis went out to choose Hamas... Maybe 32 to 28 against Fatah. Like America, they didn't like the choices.. Had to chose between "tribal" corruption or summary executions in the streets for dissent... I posted all this earlier in the thread. But this is 15 years ago -- and the clock rolls on with NO CHANCE of a "state" being committed to by the Palis..

“And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL... “


So why mention it?

You Americans having lost the argument always do the same thing. You digress to other subjects that have nothing to do with the original in attempting to 'muddy the water'. Your another 'political chic' going off on 20 different tangents to try and cloud the issue.

The issue here is quite simply did Palestine exist before the modern state of Israel?

Absolute crap.... What's NOW is NOW.. And what happened 1000 yrs ago aint politically important in most countries... Palis by a LARGE majority don't WANT a strong federal level govt. If ya dont get that Arab countries NEED brutal dictatorships to keep their countries relatively free of tribal, familial bloodshed --- and to them NATIONALISM was a LAST resort to cast off REAL IMPERIALISM -- you'll never understand why "city state or emirate" govts are the CLOSEST thing that is STABLE in that part of the world...

 

[flacaltenn]

As for your final offering-

“You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...”

A bit childish even for a yank!

First off, - I don't give a toss what Palestinians might want, as I've said it is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
Facts are facts, black on white, you can neither smell nor taste them.

Not arrogant enough for an Aussie !!!! You don't GIVE a toss what they want.. That kinda makes your participation in DECIDING FOR THEM -- well -- kinda Limey Imperialistic - dont it?

I just gave you the reasons WHY Israel has no one in authority to negotiate with.. Haven't had a negotiation partner since the PA agreed to terms on getting back Gaza -- Jew free -- and clear.. Israel made complete withdrawal and pulled every last Jew out kicking and screaming.. And within a year -- there was a hot Fatah/Hamas Civil War in the streets and the END of ANY Palestinian state...

 

[toastman]

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU

Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election.. You're living 15 YEARS ago now... The only reason Hamas won all those seats is that they BOYCOTTED the previous elections.. And the popular vote diff was only a few percent.. So NO -- Hamas is not a recognized leadership even BY the Palestinians..

You probably didn't read my post where the EXIT POLLS from that elections asked "Should Hamas drop their extreme demands on Israel's existence"?? Over 70% responded yes.. Think it's a few pages back.. You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...

“Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election”.

60% is a very respectable majority. How many US Presidents get 60%. British governments of late never get 40%. But again this is not the issue as you say in contradicting your self-

“And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL... “


So why mention it?

You Americans having lost the argument always do the same thing. You digress to other subjects that have nothing to do with the original in attempting to 'muddy the water'. Your another 'political chic' going off on 20 different tangents to try and cloud the issue.

The issue here is quite simply did Palestine exist before the modern state of Israel?

That is all! That is it!
The answer is an emphatic YES!

RoccoR in trying to refute the above has actually proven it-

“I have, at various times, gone back more than a thousand years in history. And I don't see where → prior to the late 19th Century and 20th Century → that the inhabitants of the undefined region of "Palestine" habitually referred to themselves as "Palestinians."

“I have seen, where (in translation) the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"


He admits that from the 19th century (i.e. 1800) the inhabitants DID refer to themselves as Palestinians.
That is 148 years before the State of Israel came into being.

He goes on “the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"

So even in Roman times the land was called Palestine and just as folk in France call themselves French, people born into Palestine would call themselves Palestinian, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim!

As for your final offering-

“You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...”

A bit childish even for a yank!

First off, - I don't give a toss what Palestinians might want, as I've said it is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
Facts are facts, black on white, you can neither smell nor taste them.

So you’re saying there was a country called Palestine before Israel was created ?

 

[Oz and the Orchestra]

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU

Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election.. You're living 15 YEARS ago now... The only reason Hamas won all those seats is that they BOYCOTTED the previous elections.. And the popular vote diff was only a few percent.. So NO -- Hamas is not a recognized leadership even BY the Palestinians..

You probably didn't read my post where the EXIT POLLS from that elections asked "Should Hamas drop their extreme demands on Israel's existence"?? Over 70% responded yes.. Think it's a few pages back.. You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...

“Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election”.

60% is a very respectable majority. How many US Presidents get 60%. British governments of late never get 40%. But again this is not the issue as you say in contradicting your self-

“And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL... “


So why mention it?

You Americans having lost the argument always do the same thing. You digress to other subjects that have nothing to do with the original in attempting to 'muddy the water'. Your another 'political chic' going off on 20 different tangents to try and cloud the issue.

The issue here is quite simply did Palestine exist before the modern state of Israel?

That is all! That is it!
The answer is an emphatic YES!

RoccoR in trying to refute the above has actually proven it-

“I have, at various times, gone back more than a thousand years in history. And I don't see where → prior to the late 19th Century and 20th Century → that the inhabitants of the undefined region of "Palestine" habitually referred to themselves as "Palestinians."

“I have seen, where (in translation) the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"


He admits that from the 19th century (i.e. 1800) the inhabitants DID refer to themselves as Palestinians.
That is 148 years before the State of Israel came into being.

He goes on “the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"

So even in Roman times the land was called Palestine and just as folk in France call themselves French, people born into Palestine would call themselves Palestinian, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim!

As for your final offering-

“You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...”

A bit childish even for a yank!

First off, - I don't give a toss what Palestinians might want, as I've said it is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
Facts are facts, black on white, you can neither smell nor taste them.

So you’re saying there was a country called Palestine before Israel was created ?

Ha ha ha - YES!.....and that is ALL I'm saying!

 

[Mindful]

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU

Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election.. You're living 15 YEARS ago now... The only reason Hamas won all those seats is that they BOYCOTTED the previous elections.. And the popular vote diff was only a few percent.. So NO -- Hamas is not a recognized leadership even BY the Palestinians..

You probably didn't read my post where the EXIT POLLS from that elections asked "Should Hamas drop their extreme demands on Israel's existence"?? Over 70% responded yes.. Think it's a few pages back.. You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...

“Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election”.

60% is a very respectable majority. How many US Presidents get 60%. British governments of late never get 40%. But again this is not the issue as you say in contradicting your self-

“And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL... “


So why mention it?

You Americans having lost the argument always do the same thing. You digress to other subjects that have nothing to do with the original in attempting to 'muddy the water'. Your another 'political chic' going off on 20 different tangents to try and cloud the issue.

The issue here is quite simply did Palestine exist before the modern state of Israel?

That is all! That is it!
The answer is an emphatic YES!

RoccoR in trying to refute the above has actually proven it-

“I have, at various times, gone back more than a thousand years in history. And I don't see where → prior to the late 19th Century and 20th Century → that the inhabitants of the undefined region of "Palestine" habitually referred to themselves as "Palestinians."

“I have seen, where (in translation) the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"


He admits that from the 19th century (i.e. 1800) the inhabitants DID refer to themselves as Palestinians.
That is 148 years before the State of Israel came into being.

He goes on “the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"

So even in Roman times the land was called Palestine and just as folk in France call themselves French, people born into Palestine would call themselves Palestinian, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim!

As for your final offering-

“You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...”

A bit childish even for a yank!

First off, - I don't give a toss what Palestinians might want, as I've said it is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
Facts are facts, black on white, you can neither smell nor taste them.

So you’re saying there was a country called Palestine before Israel was created ?

Ha ha ha - YES!.....and that is ALL I'm saying!

Just as well, that’s ALL you’re saying.

 

[gtopa1]

I am in my mid sixties, and my first introduction to Israel situation came from watching the events unfold before and during the six day war. The bellicose bully, Nassar, was boasting continually about pushing the Jews into the sea

All the talk those days was about pan Arabism. They felt powerful because of their increasing oil wealth and felt confident that with the full weight of the massive Arab world coming to bear, this time they would finally be able to make good on their promise to kill Jews until they hid behind rocks and trees.

There was no talk about people called Palestinian because there were none - Just Arabs united in a common culture of Jew hatred.

Having lived in a time before Palestians were invented gives me a good understanding on the nature and effects of relentless propaganda. How many others are old enough to remember a time before their invention?

I think it makes a HUGE difference in the way people do or do not succumb to the propaganda.

Yes I remember it; it was on the news a lot....and then a year later some anti-Israel scum murdered Bobby. That was the last Dem I had any time for; my teacher, a nun, had to leave the classroom sobbing uncontrollably. This was AFTER the six day war of course, but they have always blended together for me.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

Numismatic coin dealers still sell 1920's -30"s Palestine collector coins of various denominations, used as legal tender by arabs and jews in Palestine during that time period. ...
View attachment 376163

Too easy...

So what if no state has existed. Are Belarus, Slovakia and Slovenia not states because they didn't exist until near the end of the 20th century, long after the notion of a Palestinian state got started?

Did you squeal like a stuck pig about those Eastern Bloc "countries" when they were puppets of the USSR????????????? So why do you squeal like a stuck pig about a "state" that never was???

Israel was not a "State" until 1948. Before that it was part of a Brit Mandate after centuries of Ottoman control. Before that it was a Jewish Nation.............etc etc etc....you know the "thing"...lmao

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU

Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election.. You're living 15 YEARS ago now... The only reason Hamas won all those seats is that they BOYCOTTED the previous elections.. And the popular vote diff was only a few percent.. So NO -- Hamas is not a recognized leadership even BY the Palestinians..

You probably didn't read my post where the EXIT POLLS from that elections asked "Should Hamas drop their extreme demands on Israel's existence"?? Over 70% responded yes.. Think it's a few pages back.. You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...

“Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election”.

60% is a very respectable majority. How many US Presidents get 60%. British governments of late never get 40%. But again this is not the issue as you say in contradicting your self-

“And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL... “


So why mention it?

You Americans having lost the argument always do the same thing. You digress to other subjects that have nothing to do with the original in attempting to 'muddy the water'. Your another 'political chic' going off on 20 different tangents to try and cloud the issue.

The issue here is quite simply did Palestine exist before the modern state of Israel?

That is all! That is it!
The answer is an emphatic YES!

RoccoR in trying to refute the above has actually proven it-

“I have, at various times, gone back more than a thousand years in history. And I don't see where → prior to the late 19th Century and 20th Century → that the inhabitants of the undefined region of "Palestine" habitually referred to themselves as "Palestinians."

“I have seen, where (in translation) the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"


He admits that from the 19th century (i.e. 1800) the inhabitants DID refer to themselves as Palestinians.
That is 148 years before the State of Israel came into being.

He goes on “the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"

So even in Roman times the land was called Palestine and just as folk in France call themselves French, people born into Palestine would call themselves Palestinian, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim!

As for your final offering-

“You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...”

A bit childish even for a yank!

First off, - I don't give a toss what Palestinians might want, as I've said it is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
Facts are facts, black on white, you can neither smell nor taste them.

So you’re saying there was a country called Palestine before Israel was created ?

Ha ha ha - YES!.....and that is ALL I'm saying!

Just as well, that’s ALL you’re saying.

Which is still too much BS for one lifetime!!

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU

Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election.. You're living 15 YEARS ago now... The only reason Hamas won all those seats is that they BOYCOTTED the previous elections.. And the popular vote diff was only a few percent.. So NO -- Hamas is not a recognized leadership even BY the Palestinians..

You probably didn't read my post where the EXIT POLLS from that elections asked "Should Hamas drop their extreme demands on Israel's existence"?? Over 70% responded yes.. Think it's a few pages back.. You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...

“Hamas has no mandate to govern.. They had about 60% turnout in the LAST EVER Palestinian national election”.

60% is a very respectable majority. How many US Presidents get 60%. British governments of late never get 40%. But again this is not the issue as you say in contradicting your self-

“And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL... “


So why mention it?

You Americans having lost the argument always do the same thing. You digress to other subjects that have nothing to do with the original in attempting to 'muddy the water'. Your another 'political chic' going off on 20 different tangents to try and cloud the issue.

The issue here is quite simply did Palestine exist before the modern state of Israel?

That is all! That is it!
The answer is an emphatic YES!

RoccoR in trying to refute the above has actually proven it-

“I have, at various times, gone back more than a thousand years in history. And I don't see where → prior to the late 19th Century and 20th Century → that the inhabitants of the undefined region of "Palestine" habitually referred to themselves as "Palestinians."

“I have seen, where (in translation) the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"


He admits that from the 19th century (i.e. 1800) the inhabitants DID refer to themselves as Palestinians.
That is 148 years before the State of Israel came into being.

He goes on “the Roman Governors referred to the "Land of Palestine"

So even in Roman times the land was called Palestine and just as folk in France call themselves French, people born into Palestine would call themselves Palestinian, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim!

As for your final offering-

“You should understand what Palestinians ACTUALLY want with opinions as large and stinky as yours...”

A bit childish even for a yank!

First off, - I don't give a toss what Palestinians might want, as I've said it is irrelevant to the question posed in the OP.
Facts are facts, black on white, you can neither smell nor taste them.

So you’re saying there was a country called Palestine before Israel was created ?

Ha ha ha - YES!.....and that is ALL I'm saying!

Lying ignorant ****!!

Greg

 

[Mindful]

Before Israel occupied what?

Those dark, dark places in his mind by the looks of it.


It's almost comical with some of these profoundly ignorant people who have been influenced by the antisemitic culture around them. There is a famous piece written in the late 40s by King Abdullah called "As the Arabs See the Jews", and it contains the usual laundry lists of complaints based on half truths, omission of pertinent information, questionable framing and all the propaganda talking points we see today. Not once does he mention a Palestinian people. He talks only of Arabs, and that is because there WERE no people who called themselves Palestinian at the time.

Why this subject is so difficult to comprehend for some people really baffles me. Does their stupidity make them more likely to be antisemitic or does their antisemitism make them stupid?

Listen Einstein don't call me anti-Semitic, you've got a nerve, I have fought my whole life against all forms of racism
even when racism was fashionable I called it out.
Just in the last fortnight on this very forum,I have challenged antisemitism several times. Sunni Man's posts carry a Holocaust denial vid. Have you ever challenged it? - NO!
Political chic posted a thread totally supporting a potential Ambassador to Germany with a history of antisemitic views.
Did you challenge her? - NO!
A thread by 'Professor' that started "Anybody interested in Evolution" Then descended into him ranting Holocaust denial. I challenged did you? - NO!
We were having an intelligent debate as to whether Palestine existed before modern day Israel, in which it can easily be proven it did, but I will come back to that. There is nothing antisemitic about stating it did, it is just a matter of historical fact. So I will thank you to keep your filthy assertions to yourself and try rooting out real antisemitism.

There’s racism, and there’s Jew hatred.

 

[Picaro]

Whoever wrote that article knows nothing about the Druze,
or simply relying on the ignorant.

The Druze by definition,
are loyalists to whatever political rule,
it's a fundamental principle of their tradition.

You didn't read either article. Try reading the links rather than run around trying to pretend you know everything; you don't. You didn't even read what I cited.

First the article says Druze have no national goals of their own,then it attempts to explain why they didn't follow Arab nationalism in Israel.

It just doesn't make sense.

The Arab factions were boldly dysfunctional and arrogant,
the Jewish faction clearly indicated ability to govern in virtue.

I don't claim to know everything,
but I know my Druze enough to understand that
the 2nd half of the article is typical western none sense.

Rubbish. Both articles were perfectly clear; you're just a troll, is all.

 

[Picaro]

Originally posted by toastman
Israel isn’t doing anything to the Palestinians . The Palestinians are the ones shooting themselves on the foot. Don’t like it? Stop attacking Israel.. wanna keep attacking Israel? Don’t whine when you suffer the wrath of the IDF

Now comes the most shocking revelation of the entire book.

The initial flow of refugees back to their villages, towns and cities in 1948 was 100% civilian, unarmed and peaceful and for the most part continued to be so for the next 7 years.

Israel's Border Wars​

The vast majority of the infiltrators during the second half of 1948, 1949, and 1950 came unarmed, which would suggest that their purpose was not political-terrorist. (PAG 51).

... during 1949-56. The evidence suggests that the vast majority were unarmed; the overwhelming majority had infiltrated for economic or social reasons. (Pag. 452)

COMMENT:

Where are the fedayeen, the intifadas, the suicide bombings, the rockets, where is all the Palestinian aggression that according to Coyote and FY436 gave origin to the present phase of the conflict and against which toastman and Hollie said Israel was retaliating?

Israel has NO reason to attack Palestinians other than to defend Israel from further attacks or to retaliate.

toastman

The 48 war had already ended.

There was no arab soldier invading Israel.

No ALA guerrilla fighter (Arab Liberation Army).

No Palestinian armed struggle yet...

Just a civilian, mainly peasant population, peaceful, urnarmed, who just wanted to resume their normal lives, tend their crops, raise their livestock...

Their return to their homeland was not accompanied by any aggression against Israel, their return to their villages was nothing Israel had to defend itself from...

The only "crime" they commited was not belonging to the "official" ethnicity of the supremacist state that had just been imposed on them by brute force.

Is censored really defending itself in 2020?

Correct.. Israeli Knesset is more than 12 or 15% Arab.. Long time Arab residents made peace with Israel and PROSPER in Israel.. Even aid the IDForces in critical roles as volunteers. Issue is NOT with the Arabs that chose to stay or return after hostilities. The issue is largely "Jordanian citizens" displaced by the 1967 war.. Who BTW are prospering much better than those Palis who later fled to Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and other neighbors.. THEY live a much more restricted and harsher life..

I thought the Druze units and that other sect I can't remember the name of were regular IDF. Learn something every day.

Ah, the others were small number of Circassians who defected from the Jordanian Army.

Sword Battalion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Sword Battalion was formed in the early summer of 1948 by incorporating a unit of Druze defectors from the Arab Liberation Army and small numbers of Bedouin and Circassians.[1] The unit was attached to the Oded Brigade and fought in Operation Hiram in October 1948. It has fought in every war since. Today, most members of the unit are Druze, but there are also Bedouins, Circassians and Christian and Muslim Arabs. The unit has produced several generals.

The Sword Battalion has a small elite Sayeret Special Forces branch.

Druze and Circassian men are subject to mandatory conscription to the IDF.[2] In the mid-1950s, the Druze leadership appealed to David Ben-Gurion, then Minister of Defense, to draft Druze men on the same basis as Jews. The State Defense Act of 1949, which called for drafting all individuals in the country, allowed the minister to issue exemptions for certain groups. The Druze asked that their exemption be canceled.[3] Originally, they served in the framework of a special unit. Since the 1980s, Druze soldiers have joined regular combat units, attaining high ranks and commendations for distinguished service. 83 percent of Druze boys serve in the army, according to IDF statistics.[4] According to the Israeli army, 369 Druze soldiers have been killed in combat operations since 1948.[5]Sword Battalion - Wikipedia

Druze in Israel and the Question of Compulsory Military Service

Discussion of military service for the Israeli Druze community.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Origins of Druze Political Loyalty

The Druze in Syria and Lebanon played a key role in the building of their respective countries and had an important part in the Arab struggles against French colonialism that began in the 1920s. Thus, they are part of the past glory, present reality, and future destiny of their countries, and never had nationalist aspirations to establish an independent Druze state. They preferred to be loyal to their respective countries and partners in developing its strength, security, prosperity, and power.


The situation of the Druze in Israel was different because they lacked organized institutions, an educated class, economic means, and an agreed-upon leadership. The Druze in Mandatory Palestine were primarily peasants, residents of mountaintop villages distant from the major cities and centers of decision-making. They played no central role in the struggle over Eretz Israel and remained outside of Arab and Muslim political activity during the period 1920-1940. There were attempts by a few to organize the affairs of the Druze in Mandatory Palestine and to improve their standing, but their efforts failed, especially due to struggles over leadership between the Tarif and Khyr clans.


As a result of these struggles, the Druze community was divided in the contest for Mandatory Palestine. Some were politically active in the Arab national movement and others joined the armed struggle, but the majority remained passive. Until 1948 most of the Druze villages were open to the Arab nationalist movement. However, the leaders of local Arab militias related to the Druze with scorn, acting with violence and extortion within their villages. Other Druze were kidnapped and murdered by Arab nationalists, sowing threats and fear. At a time when many Druze sought a solution to their plight, the Jewish leadership in the country, who realized what was occurring, capitalized on the anger in the Druze villages and began to develop relations with the Druze, primarily in Ussifiya, Daliat al-Carmel, and Shfaram. Thus, some Druze began to help and defend the Jews, while others continued to identify with the Arab nationalist leaders.

The key reason for the break in relations between the Druze and the Arab nationalists was the demand by the Muslim Wakf in 1942 to take over control of Jethro's Tomb, the holiest site of the Druze, located in Kfar Hittin west of Tiberias. This demand was supported by the Arab Higher Committee headed by Haj Amin el-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem. The demand triggered waves of protest and anger and a protracted legal struggle. The issue united the heads of the Druze in Syria, Lebanon, and Mandatory Palestine, who petitioned Muslim and Arab leaders as well as British officials. Only in 1945 did the court decide that the site was to remain under Druze control.

It was the accumulation of all of these provocations toward the Druze that caused the break in their relations with the Arab nationalists, which only increased as the British and the Jews stood at the side of the Druze in their struggle for survival, honor, and security.

Yet another group the Nazi Mufti Hussien screwed over. The guy must have been a real dumbass.

Whoever wrote that article knows nothing about the Druze,
or simply relying on the ignorant.

The Druze by definition,
are loyalists to whatever political rule,
it's a fundamental principle of their tradition.

Which article are you talking about? Both say essentially the same thing re Druze and their loyalty to existing states over some 'homeland' claims, and in fact say the same thing you said. Lay off the hash for a few weeks; the Jewish Virtual Library is a much better maintained and informed source then you are. But you didn't read them at all, so you're just lying here.

 

[Picaro]

I am in my mid sixties, and my first introduction to Israel situation came from watching the events unfold before and during the six day war. The bellicose bully, Nassar, was boasting continually about pushing the Jews into the sea

All the talk those days was about pan Arabism. They felt powerful because of their increasing oil wealth and felt confident that with the full weight of the massive Arab world coming to bear, this time they would finally be able to make good on their promise to kill Jews until they hid behind rocks and trees.

There was no talk about people called Palestinian because there were none - Just Arabs united in a common culture of Jew hatred.

Having lived in a time before Palestians were invented gives me a good understanding on the nature and effects of relentless propaganda. How many others are old enough to remember a time before their invention?

I think it makes a HUGE difference in the way people do or do not succumb to the propaganda.

It may surprise you to know that Palestine has been both a geographical region at different times over millennia, and a State. The State of Palestine has been recognised by the UN from 2012.

Never thought. but for once I agree with Sunni Mann.

They have "observer" status at the UN.. Which is kinda like a "pit pass" to being in the Indy 500.. What elected Palestinian entity APPOINTS their UN delegation? And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL...

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU. As you say not all states have free and fair elections Saudi, China, while Russia and Belarus have elections but no one ever gets to find out who really won them.

The point I was making though was to debunk the OP's assertion that Palestine didn't exist before Israel occupied and implying that there is no basis for it to exist now . Palestine has in the distant past covered an area that included parts of Jordan. The Palestinian people included Muslims, Jews
& Arabs and their capital was Jerusalem.

So how many times do you plan on losing based on repeating your patently false claims? 1,000? Going for Tinmore's 50,000 losses per year, are you?

 

[konradv]

Numismatic coin dealers still sell 1920's -30"s Palestine collector coins of various denominations, used as legal tender by arabs and jews in Palestine during that time period. ...
View attachment 376163

Too easy...

So what if no state has existed. Are Belarus, Slovakia and Slovenia not states because they didn't exist until near the end of the 20th century, long after the notion of a Palestinian state got started?

Did you squeal like a stuck pig about those Eastern Bloc "countries" when they were puppets of the USSR????????????? So why do you squeal like a stuck pig about a "state" that never was???

Israel was not a "State" until 1948. Before that it was part of a Brit Mandate after centuries of Ottoman control. Before that it was a Jewish Nation.............etc etc etc....you know the "thing"...lmao

No, I didn't squeal like a stuck pig over either situation, that seems to be your deal. I talk and try to discuss things like a normal human being. Try it some time.

 

[Oz and the Orchestra]

Before Israel occupied what?

Those dark, dark places in his mind by the looks of it.


It's almost comical with some of these profoundly ignorant people who have been influenced by the antisemitic culture around them. There is a famous piece written in the late 40s by King Abdullah called "As the Arabs See the Jews", and it contains the usual laundry lists of complaints based on half truths, omission of pertinent information, questionable framing and all the propaganda talking points we see today. Not once does he mention a Palestinian people. He talks only of Arabs, and that is because there WERE no people who called themselves Palestinian at the time.

Why this subject is so difficult to comprehend for some people really baffles me. Does their stupidity make them more likely to be antisemitic or does their antisemitism make them stupid?

Listen Einstein don't call me anti-Semitic, you've got a nerve, I have fought my whole life against all forms of racism
even when racism was fashionable I called it out.
Just in the last fortnight on this very forum,I have challenged antisemitism several times. Sunni Man's posts carry a Holocaust denial vid. Have you ever challenged it? - NO!
Political chic posted a thread totally supporting a potential Ambassador to Germany with a history of antisemitic views.
Did you challenge her? - NO!
A thread by 'Professor' that started "Anybody interested in Evolution" Then descended into him ranting Holocaust denial. I challenged did you? - NO!
We were having an intelligent debate as to whether Palestine existed before modern day Israel, in which it can easily be proven it did, but I will come back to that. There is nothing antisemitic about stating it did, it is just a matter of historical fact. So I will thank you to keep your filthy assertions to yourself and try rooting out real antisemitism.

There’s racism, and there’s Jew hatred.

I think its called antisemitism 'sweet cheeks' and is that what your accusing me of?

And where were you when 'Sunni Man' and 'Professor' were denying the Holocaust or when 'Political chic' extolled the virtues of a known anti Semite becoming US Ambassador to Germany. Or in one of her other threads that alleged the Nazi's killed "very few"? - You were nowhere to be seen.
It was left to me to single handedly defend Jewish honor and nation.

As for the 'which came first Palestine or Israel?'
Facts are facts, if I'm wrong, prove it!

 

[Oz and the Orchestra]

I am in my mid sixties, and my first introduction to Israel situation came from watching the events unfold before and during the six day war. The bellicose bully, Nassar, was boasting continually about pushing the Jews into the sea

All the talk those days was about pan Arabism. They felt powerful because of their increasing oil wealth and felt confident that with the full weight of the massive Arab world coming to bear, this time they would finally be able to make good on their promise to kill Jews until they hid behind rocks and trees.

There was no talk about people called Palestinian because there were none - Just Arabs united in a common culture of Jew hatred.

Having lived in a time before Palestians were invented gives me a good understanding on the nature and effects of relentless propaganda. How many others are old enough to remember a time before their invention?

I think it makes a HUGE difference in the way people do or do not succumb to the propaganda.

It may surprise you to know that Palestine has been both a geographical region at different times over millennia, and a State. The State of Palestine has been recognised by the UN from 2012.

Never thought. but for once I agree with Sunni Mann.

They have "observer" status at the UN.. Which is kinda like a "pit pass" to being in the Indy 500.. What elected Palestinian entity APPOINTS their UN delegation? And when's the last time those "leaders" stood for election?? Not that elections have to be REQUIRED or FAIR for a membership in the UN.. LOL...

"Observer" status or not a State is a state. They could never be classed as fully independent with big brother Israel dictating when they breath. Hamas was elected freely with observers from the UN & EU. As you say not all states have free and fair elections Saudi, China, while Russia and Belarus have elections but no one ever gets to find out who really won them.

The point I was making though was to debunk the OP's assertion that Palestine didn't exist before Israel occupied and implying that there is no basis for it to exist now . Palestine has in the distant past covered an area that included parts of Jordan. The Palestinian people included Muslims, Jews
& Arabs and their capital was Jerusalem.

So how many times do you plan on losing based on repeating your patently false claims? 1,000? Going for Tinmore's 50,000 losses per year, are you?

What are you on about? - I proved Palestine existed before Israel beyond all reasonable doubt.
As Israel didn't come into being until 1948 a mere blink of the eye ago in historical terms, it wouldn't be hard for any nation even your own USA to claim they have existed far longer than Israel.