CDZ Do you agree that, only through government, can people...

[fncceo]

We have supported Israel since world war two, and beyond

Actually, that's not entirely correct. Although the US voted in favour of partition in 1948, no one in the American government thought for a moment Israel would survive the rest of the year, given that every Arab nation around them threatened to 'push the Jews into the sea.

The US was one of the few nations in thr world, and the only non-communist nation, to be under a total US arms embargo from 1948 until 1967.

When Israel came away victorious in The Six Day War, Lyndon Johnson decided to lobby congress to remove the embargo so we could sell our fighters and tanks to Israel.

 

[K9Buck]

We have supported Israel since world war two, and beyond

Actually, that's not entirely correct. Although the US voted in favour of partition in 1948, no one in the American government thought for a moment Israel would survive the rest of the year, given that every Arab nation around them threatened to 'push the Jews into the sea.

The US was one of the few nations in thr world, and the only non-communist nation, to be under a total US arms embargo from 1948 until 1967.

When Israel came away victorious in The Six Day War, Lyndon Johnson decided to lobby congress to remove the embargo so we could sell our fighters and tanks to Israel.

Wow. How did I miss his statement? I would have been all over that. It's amazing how people utter such blatantly ignorant remarks. Aside from voting in favor of the state of Israel, the U.S. did everything possible to PREVENT Israel from obtaining the means necessary to defend themselves.

This book is a GREAT read, by the way. I listened to it on Audible.

 

[K9Buck]

Actually, that's not entirely correct.

Talk about the understatement of the year.

 

[Donald H]

The unspeakable conclusion is that states need to operate based on reality and religious superstitious beliefs need to be put on the back burner. Surreptitiously of course so as not ato arouse the wrath of indoctrinated who have become slaves to religions.

More simply stated, a couple wishing to be married aren't obliged to pretend they believe in sky fairies!

I gotta hand it to you. You're always good for an unhinged rant. Thanks for the laughs!

No need for the insults.
Why would normal people who believe in science and evolution be bothered by what religious hypocrites think of them getting married?

 

[peacefan]

...realize their true potential and achieve their shared destiny?

If so, why do you believe such?

people do need a stable government to thrive, that's what i believe.

but it's not the only thing they need.

they need a bit of luck, a lot of perseverance, skills, and wisdom, too.

 

[fncceo]

Government can provide enforcement of property rights. Government can provide courts to facilitate and enforce litigation. Government can provide laws that protect individual freedoms. Government can provide for common defense.

Government should not be in the business of telling people what the can eat, smoke, or drink. They should not be in the business of telling people where they should live, what kind of cars they can drive, what they can read, what kind of light bulbs we use when we read, who we can marry, what kind of sex we have, or what music we listen to when we're having it.

When we finally come to the realization that not every activity needs to come with a "US Government" stamp of of approval and not every problem has a government provided solution. When we realize that there are severe limits on what is or isn't government's business.

Then, and only then, can we begin to achieve our societal potential.

If there were one strict and inviolate law in America, it should be that any one who utters the following phrase should receive a severe horse whipping.

"The government needs to do something about ___________" -- fill in the blank.

 

[fncceo]

Why would normal people who believe in science and evolution be bothered by what religious hypocrites think of them getting married?

Who is saying they do? Removing state sanction from marriage removes the need for the approval of anyone when it comes to marriage.

 

[beagle9]

We have supported Israel since world war two, and beyond

Actually, that's not entirely correct. Although the US voted in favour of partition in 1948, no one in the American government thought for a moment Israel would survive the rest of the year, given that every Arab nation around them threatened to 'push the Jews into the sea.

The US was one of the few nations in thr world, and the only non-communist nation, to be under a total US arms embargo from 1948 until 1967.

When Israel came away victorious in The Six Day War, Lyndon Johnson decided to lobby congress to remove the embargo so we could sell our fighters and tanks to Israel.

Wow. How did I miss his statement? I would have been all over that. It's amazing how people utter such blatantly ignorant remarks. Aside from voting in favor of the state of Israel, the U.S. did everything possible to PREVENT Israel from obtaining the means necessary to defend themselves.

This book is a GREAT read, by the way. I listened to it on Audible.

View attachment 435587

Was mainly talking about how we saved them from the Natzi's, and liberated the concentration camps correct ??? That was the ultimate support for the Jewish people by our nation wasn't it ?? Otherwise by fighting in a world war, and of course trying to promote freedom, and end fascism and evilness during those times correct ??

Then we helped in the creation of the state of Israel for them correct ?? Otherwise in order for them to have a safe place to be after the defeat of the Nazi's, and their evil dictator Hitler correct ?? I don't know the history that well, but I just knew that we gave alot in Germany to help save England, save the Jewish people, and to rid the world of the biggest villain of all time. Thanks

 

[fncceo]

Was mainly talking about how we saved them from the Natzi's, and liberated the concentration camps correct ???

Let's be clear. There wasn't a single Allied (or Russian) mission to liberate Jews from concentration camps.

The camps were only 'liberated' when they were accidentally discovered, by Allied forces, after the fleeing Germans abandoned them in their retreat.

Even Eisenhower, the Supreme Allied Commander of the invasion of Europe, was not informed of their existence and Allied troops were completely surprised when they were located.

 

[K9Buck]

We have supported Israel since world war two, and beyond

Actually, that's not entirely correct. Although the US voted in favour of partition in 1948, no one in the American government thought for a moment Israel would survive the rest of the year, given that every Arab nation around them threatened to 'push the Jews into the sea.

The US was one of the few nations in thr world, and the only non-communist nation, to be under a total US arms embargo from 1948 until 1967.

When Israel came away victorious in The Six Day War, Lyndon Johnson decided to lobby congress to remove the embargo so we could sell our fighters and tanks to Israel.

Wow. How did I miss his statement? I would have been all over that. It's amazing how people utter such blatantly ignorant remarks. Aside from voting in favor of the state of Israel, the U.S. did everything possible to PREVENT Israel from obtaining the means necessary to defend themselves.

This book is a GREAT read, by the way. I listened to it on Audible.

View attachment 435587

Was mainly talking about how we saved them from the Natzi's, and liberated the concentration camps correct ??? That was the ultimate support for the Jewish people by our nation wasn't it ?? Otherwise by fighting in a world war, and of course trying to promote freedom, and end fascism and evilness during those times correct ??

Then we helped in the creation of the state of Israel for them correct ?? Otherwise in order for them to have a safe place to be after the defeat of the Nazi's, and their evil dictator Hitler correct ?? I don't know the history that well, but I just knew that we gave alot in Germany to help save England, save the Jewish people, and to rid the world of the biggest villain of all time. Thanks

If you enjoy history and a good story, sign up with Audible and get the book I mentioned above. It will open your eyes about how the U.S., Britain, and others took measures to prevent Israel from being able to obtain arms. Rich Jews that supported the fledgling Israeli state formed shell companies that acquired a lot of WW2 surplus equipment. Former WW2 Jewish pilots from the U.S., Poland, U.K., etc., volunteered for the Israeli "air force" and it was a rag-tag bunch. It's a great listen and you'll learn a lot.

As far as I can tell, the U.S. did NOTHING for Israel once it was created. Our tremendous support for Israel came much later.

 

[fncceo]

Then we helped in the creation of the state of Israel for them correct ??

Actually, No.

The US did vote in favor of the partition of Palestine, as did 32 other countries. However, no one in the Truman Administration or State Department at the time thought The State of Israel would last the year. Most people in the American government were convinced that without outside assistance, the tiny Jewish state would be wiped away by the surrounding Arab countries who threatened to "drive the Jews into the sea", thereby relieving the US of the awkward position of supporting Israel and opposing oil-producing Arab States.

To facilitate this, the US put Israel under an arms embargo -- the ONLY non-communist state to be so embargoed by the US -- from 1947 until in 67.

Only after Israel won such a stunning victory against combined Arab forces (for a third time since 1948), and convinced the Johnson Administration that they wouldn't just roll over and die, did the American government lift that embargo and offer to sell tanks and planes to Israel.

 

[K9Buck]

The U.S. DID provide Israel with economic aid, but no military aid. The U.S. did begin selling arms to Israel in 1962, per this source.


“It is my responsibility to see that our policy in Israel fits in with our policy throughout the world; second, it is my desire to help build in Palestine a strong, prosperous, free and independent democratic state. It must be large enough, free enough, and strong enough to make its people self-supporting and secure,” President Truman said in a speech October 28, 1948.

Truman's commitment was quickly tested after Israel's victory in its War of Independence when she applied to the U.S. for economic aid to help absorb immigrants. President Truman responded by approving a $135 million Export-Import Bank loan and the sale of surplus commodities to Israel. In those early years of Israel's statehood (also today), U.S. aid was seen as a means of promoting peace.

In 1951, Congress voted to help Israel cope with the economic burdens imposed by the influx of Jewish refugees from the displaced persons camps in Europe and from the ghettos of the Arab countries. Arabs then complained the U.S. was neglecting them, though they had no interest in or use for American aid then. In 1951, Syria rejected offers of U.S. aid. Oil-rich Iraq and Saudi Arabia did not need U.S. economic assistance, and Jordan was, until the late 1950s, the ward of Great Britain. After 1957, when the United States assumed responsibility for supporting Jordan and resumed economic aid to Egypt, assistance to the Arab states soared. Also, the United States was by far the biggest contributor of aid to the Palestinians through UNRWA, a status that continues to the present.

U.S. economic grants to Israel ended in 1959. U.S. aid to Israel from then until 1985 consisted largely of loans, which Israel repaid, and surplus commodities, which Israel bought. Israel began buying arms from the United States in 1962, but did not receive any grant military assistance until after the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

History & Overview of U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[beagle9]

Then we helped in the creation of the state of Israel for them correct ??

Actually, No.

The US did vote in favor of the partition of Palestine, as did 32 other countries. However, no one in the Truman Administration or State Department at the time thought The State of Israel would last the year. Most people in the American government were convinced that without outside assistance, the tiny Jewish state would be wiped away by the surrounding Arab countries who threatened to "drive the Jews into the sea", thereby relieving the US of the awkward position of supporting Israel and opposing oil-producing Arab States.

To facilitate this, the US put Israel under an arms embargo -- the ONLY non-communist state to be so embargoed by the US -- from 1947 until in 67.

Only after Israel won such a stunning victory against combined Arab forces (for a third time since 1948), and convinced the Johnson Administration that they wouldn't just roll over and die, did the American government lift that embargo and offer to sell tanks and planes to Israel.

Why did we have an embargo on arms like that ??? Nevermind, I'll look it up... Thanks
It is an interesting subject, and yep I like history. Wasn't always like that, but at my older age I like it better, especially with the invent of Youtube... LOL.

Bottom line is that we vehemently support Israel now, and I'm great with that... Those people suffered greatly.

 

[fncceo]

The U.S. did begin selling arms to Israel in 1962, per this source.

Israel started buying US equipment in 1962 ... from West Germany. Germans funneled tanks on non-fighter aircraft in small numbers in violation of the US Arms Embargo.

An embargo that wasn't officially lifted until 1968.

 

[fncceo]

Why did we have an embargo on arms like that ???

According to a CIA assessment of Middle East military capabilities in 1948, it was thought that neither Arabs nor Israel had enough weapons for a prolonged conflict. Israel had no heavy weapons (tanks or aircraft) and Arabs had plenty of aircraft and tanks, supplied by Britain, but no secure supply for ammunition once their stocks were depleted.

Historical Documents - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

The thinking, at the time, was that both sides were more likely to compromise if they couldn't fight a prolonged war. Ultimately, the Arabs were supplied by The Soviets and Israel was able to purchase weapons from France and Britain, however, those purchases were sporadic as France and Britain frequently blocked already negotiated (and in some cases already paid for) arm sales to Israel to appease Arab States.

 

[ralfy]

No, because a significant chunk of government revenues comes from taxes and investments from the rich, which means the government will essentially serve the rich and not the majority.

 

[fncceo]

which means the government will essentially serve the rich and not the majority.

Solution? Cease taxing the rich.

 

[Blues Man]

I have been banned from Christian forums for advocating that gay-marriage be permitted by law.

The question isn't whether or not same sex marriage should be permitted by The State.

The real question is, 'Why does The State have any jurisdiction over marriage?'. Which is, fundamentally, a religious institution.

No one should have to seek sanction from The State to enter into a religious or contractual union.

as far as the state is concerned marriage is a property contract and a matter of civil law

 

[beagle9]

Why did we have an embargo on arms like that ???

According to a CIA assessment of Middle East military capabilities in 1948, it was thought that neither Arabs nor Israel had enough weapons for a prolonged conflict. Israel had no heavy weapons (tanks or aircraft) and Arabs had plenty of aircraft and tanks, supplied by Britain, but no secure supply for ammunition once their stocks were depleted.

Historical Documents - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

The thinking, at the time, was that both sides were more likely to compromise if they couldn't fight a prolonged war. Ultimately, the Arabs were supplied by The Soviets and Israel was able to purchase weapons from France and Britain, however, those purchases were sporadic as France and Britain frequently blocked already negotiated (and in some cases already paid for) arm sales to Israel to appease Arab States.

Ok, but why did we resist Israel when it came to arming itself in a sea of danger surrounding it ???? I see what your saying about the strategy to equal out the sides in hopes to keep them from jumping at each other, but that was a failed strategy looking back now correct ?

 

[beagle9]

which means the government will essentially serve the rich and not the majority.

Solution? Cease taxing the rich.

The liberal looks at it differently... Tax the rich to death almost, and that way the rich will serve the government instead of vice versa. Problem with that ideology is that the government is worse than the rich if given that kind of power, and it has been proven. Better to keep the wealth distributed, and out of the hands of the locals or feds as much as possible.