Chips ....

Gunny

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Is that a dagger I feel, Judas, or a you just glad to see me?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnyL
Does this mean you don't like religion?



I disagree. Sounds to me like your indictment of religion is based on the actions of people from long ago, and the persent day extremists, who might make all the noise, but don't represent the majority of their respective religions.

In regard to Christianity specifically, NOTHING in the New Testament intones anyone to kill others in Christ's name. You may blame the idiot extremists that have done so, but blaming the religion itself is just misplacing blame.

Gunny:
Quote:
NOTHING in the New Testament intones anyone to kill others in Christ's name.

Au contraire, my highland flinging friend. Cheesus Crust said, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword and, to his dirty dozen Village People, Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

Chewsarse, who, I remind you, is the Old Testament God too, also said,

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

and,

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"

And poofy Paul, God’s right-hand mouthpiece as far as Proddies are concerned, said,

Let us look at Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament) "20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
You'll have to point out just where in any of the verses you quoted that Christ commands anyone to commit murder in His name. IMO, you have to be looking hard to find any such in those verses.

And before you get all worked and go off like you did on 8-ball, since I didn't even understand half of what you posted ..... I'm not trying to change you, nor prove you wrong. I am merely trying to understand what it is you believe and why you believe it.
 

Chips Rafferty

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You'll have to point out just where in any of the verses you quoted that Christ commands anyone to commit murder in His name. IMO, you have to be looking hard to find any such in those verses.

And before you get all worked and go off like you did on 8-ball, since I didn't even understand half of what you posted ..... I'm not trying to change you, nor prove you wrong. I am merely trying to understand what it is you believe and why you believe it.
Sorry I didn't see, and therefore didn't answer, this post before Gunny.

The operative bit is,

Although they know
God's righteous decree
that those who do such things deserve death,
And I can provide many more instances where God commands his Jewish goon squad to liquidate people.

You’re not going to suggest that God and Jesus aren’t one and the same thing, are you Gunny? (For the sake of brevity we’ll leave Casper out of this)

Because if you are, you are talking evil Arian heresy and Eightball and the rest of the Bubba's will be duty bound to hate you!! :eusa_silenced:

Hey, you’re not (horror of horrors!) hypothesizing that they disagree on some things? That Jesus was just a red revolutionary Rabbi reforming a hard-core reactionary religion, that perceptive people were dropping off of like lice from a leper’s jock strap? Maybe god(s) is like an inbred Tasmanian (try Tarheel) - with two heads that continually argue with each other! :rofl:

Cause when it comes to the Bible I’m actually as fundie as Eightball. I REFUSE to allow the fair-weather faithful to play cafeteria Christian, i.e. treat the Bible like a spiritual smorgasbord that they can pick and chose from when it suits them and disown it when it doesn’t.

Either it’s ALL true or it’s ALL bullshit. I refuse to let Christians run with the hares and hunt with the hounds, so to speak.

To summarise, if Jehovah says it, you can bet your left knacker that Junior goes along with it 1000%.

Even Eightball will agree with me on this. :badgrin:

As for what I believe, that’s easy. I believe that people who mindlessly follow, because they think that most other people do too, are the most “evil” people Satan ever put breath into. And I oughta know, I used to be one!

In other words, I’m a curmudgeonly Contrarian!:bowdown: :bowdown:
 

RetiredGySgt

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Not all Christians believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one entity. In fact the bible is fairly clear they are not. Jesus was the "son" of God and the Holy Spirit is a force that God uses.

Jesus preached forgiveness and peaceful relations. He negates part of the old testament with his new preachings.

Of course the Jews don't believe in Jesus so THEY still believe the old testament, but then, they aren't Christians. Next you will be telling us that because Islam preaches Jihad and death to infidels that this proves Christians are murderers also?
 

Chips Rafferty

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Not all Christians believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one entity. In fact the bible is fairly clear they are not. Jesus was the "son" of God and the Holy Spirit is a force that God uses.

Jesus preached forgiveness and peaceful relations. He negates part of the old testament with his new preachings.

Of course the Jews don't believe in Jesus so THEY still believe the old testament, but then, they aren't Christians. Next you will be telling us that because Islam preaches Jihad and death to infidels that this proves Christians are murderers also?
He negates part of the old testament with his new preachings.

Then he (Jewsarse) is a fucking liar,

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
..or the Bible is lying. What's it to be?
 

RetiredGySgt

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He fulfilled them and his new teachings clearly preach forgiveness, and peace. But do pretend they don't.

One can not both "turn the other cheek" and do an "eye for an eye".

He does not, however, preach one should just roll into a ball and surrender. And in the end of times there will be a war, lead by Jesus, against evil.

But Jesus does not preach murder. Not in any way. In fact the old testament doesn't teach murder either. In fact murder is a sin. But do ignore that pesky part.
 

Chips Rafferty

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He fulfilled them and his new teachings clearly preach forgiveness, and peace. But do pretend they don't.

One can not both "turn the other cheek" and do an "eye for an eye".

He does not, however, preach one should just roll into a ball and surrender. And in the end of times there will be a war, lead by Jesus, against evil.

But Jesus does not preach murder. Not in any way. In fact the old testament doesn't teach murder either. In fact murder is a sin. But do ignore that pesky part.
Let’s get something straight from the start, Goony.

Being a Leatherneck, naturally you would die in defence of democracy, right?

Then it stands to reason that, seeing as the Catholics have the “moral majority” by far when it comes to numbers of Christians, they MUST be right when it comes to Biblical interpretation, correct?

So in future we will take it as read that, when it comes to any scriptural disagreement between us, the Rat Catcher’s interpretation is the right one, right?

And no, I don’t believe Dimwit should be able to veto the Bible or Guard!
 

RetiredGySgt

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Belief in God is a matter of FAITH. It is NOT a matter of numbers. If all that mattered was how many people believed this or that I would assume we would all be the same religion, which ever happened to have the most people believe it.

I am not catholic and do not believe the Pope is a leader of the Christians of the world.

Unreasoning hate is like a cancer. I cant fathom how someone can maintain the energy to hate to begin with.
 

Care4all

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Thou shall not commit murder....

That is God's command.

Killing is not always murder.

The death penalty for killing someone else, is not considered murder.
(Though I am against the death penalty because of the injustice in our criminal system)

Self defense is not considered murder.

A JUST WAR and the killing that may take place in such, is NOT murder.

An UNJUST WAR could be considered murder imo.

And your post on Jesus stating that NOT ONE of the old testament laws will pass away....

you posted the verse OUT OF CONTEXT.... you can pick and choose what verses you want to use against Christians, but without a full understanding and knowledge of the entire context of the Bible, they are useless...imho!

Care
 

no1tovote4

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He negates part of the old testament with his new preachings.

Then he (Jewsarse) is a fucking liar,



..or the Bible is lying. What's it to be?
Look up the New Covenant. It relagates those laws which were to purify and allow you into the presense of God to hash. Read Romans. It will give you a good clarity on the issue, no longer were you required to circumcise for instance (Chapter 10) nor were you any longer required to eat kosher.

However, other laws that were not pertinent to such things were still in play. Basically, the sacrifice of Christ purified you more than those old purity rituals ever would.

It is a fascinating portion of this particular religion and is that thing which divides this religion from the Jewish religion, and that of the fact that Christians believe the Messiah has already been here and religious Jews do not.
 

Chips Rafferty

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Belief in God is a matter of FAITH. It is NOT a matter of numbers. If all that mattered was how many people believed this or that I would assume we would all be the same religion, which ever happened to have the most people believe it.

I am not catholic and do not believe the Pope is a leader of the Christians of the world.

Unreasoning hate is like a cancer. I cant fathom how someone can maintain the energy to hate to begin with.
You’re right of course. God is only saving 144,000 virgin Jewish men, who haven’t tainted themselves by “doing the nasty” with them “unclean” women, for himself (Revelation).

So all us pussy lovin’ European types are wasting our time arse-licking the, apparently, lisping, mincing, limp-wristed Jesus.

And all those so-called Kikes in Israel, (half of whom are so Aryan they would have a walk-up start in Hitler’s SS) that are a major cause of Dimwit’s War on T-u-u-r, are wasting their time dry-humping the Wailing Wall.

There is a big board outside of Heaven saying, “Bedouin buggers only need apply.”

Yes, I know, I know, “Revelation is only meant to be read allegorically” All you need to do is repent, accept G-E-E-E-ZUS!!, and its all over bar the Hosannas.

Unfortunately for you Gunny, Jesus is a racially prejudiced Jew and would look upon you like he would a pork chop at the Purim festival. So unless you’re a circumcised Sodomite, who looks like Saddam Hussein, you’re shit outta luck.

I can scriptually prove every word I say here.

And don’t come the usual Proddie raw prawn about “Only the “saved” can interpret Stricture.” Being a dry drunk, I sincerely repented, begged Jesus to be my Saviour, and consequently WAS saved, every horrible morning after the night before.

Why I'll wager I'm the most saved man in Christendoom! :eusa_snooty:
 

Chips Rafferty

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Thou shall not commit murder....

That is God's command.

Killing is not always murder. (How convenient! Where did Jesus say that?)

The death penalty for killing someone else, is not considered murder. (Where did Jesus say that?) (Though I am against the death penalty because of the injustice in our criminal system)

Self defense is not considered murder. (Where did Jesus say that?)

A JUST WAR and the killing that may take place in such, is NOT murder(Where did Jesus say that?)

An UNJUST WAR could be considered murder imo. (Where did Jesus say that?)

And your post on Jesus stating that NOT ONE of the old testament laws will pass away....

you posted the verse OUT OF CONTEXT.... you can pick and choose what verses you want to use against Christians, but without a full understanding and knowledge of the entire context of the Bible, they are useless...imho! (Where did Jesus say that?)

Care
:badgrin:
 

RetiredGySgt

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I see your at it again. I suggest you actually read ALL the relevant portions. While only 144k may go to celestial heaven the earth will become a paradise and the rest will live here under the rule of Jesus. But do misquote all you want.

And provide some passage that supports your claim that only Jews will be in the 144 thousand.
 

Chips Rafferty

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I see your at it again. I suggest you actually read ALL the relevant portions. While only 144k may go to celestial heaven the earth will become a paradise and the rest will live here under the rule of Jesus. But do misquote all you want.

And provide some passage that supports your claim that only Jews will be in the 144 thousand.

Fer fuck sake read the Bible before you mouth off about it!

KJV Rev Chapter 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
AND


Rev 14:1-5 “Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.”
 
OP
G

Gunny

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Sorry I didn't see, and therefore didn't answer, this post before Gunny.

The operative bit is,



And I can provide many more instances where God commands his Jewish goon squad to liquidate people.

You’re not going to suggest that God and Jesus aren’t one and the same thing, are you Gunny? (For the sake of brevity we’ll leave Casper out of this)

Because if you are, you are talking evil Arian heresy and Eightball and the rest of the Bubba's will be duty bound to hate you!! :eusa_silenced:

Hey, you’re not (horror of horrors!) hypothesizing that they disagree on some things? That Jesus was just a red revolutionary Rabbi reforming a hard-core reactionary religion, that perceptive people were dropping off of like lice from a leper’s jock strap? Maybe god(s) is like an inbred Tasmanian (try Tarheel) - with two heads that continually argue with each other! :rofl:

Cause when it comes to the Bible I’m actually as fundie as Eightball. I REFUSE to allow the fair-weather faithful to play cafeteria Christian, i.e. treat the Bible like a spiritual smorgasbord that they can pick and chose from when it suits them and disown it when it doesn’t.

Either it’s ALL true or it’s ALL bullshit. I refuse to let Christians run with the hares and hunt with the hounds, so to speak.

To summarise, if Jehovah says it, you can bet your left knacker that Junior goes along with it 1000%.

Even Eightball will agree with me on this. :badgrin:

As for what I believe, that’s easy. I believe that people who mindlessly follow, because they think that most other people do too, are the most “evil” people Satan ever put breath into. And I oughta know, I used to be one!

In other words, I’m a curmudgeonly Contrarian!:bowdown: :bowdown:
You're mixing Old Testament with New Testament. You can call it "cafeteria Christianity all you want, but the fact is, MAN wrote the Bible. Very little of it is verbatim "the word of God." Most is prefaced by "God said to me ..."

It isn't a matter of picking of choosing; rather, a matter of keeping events in context of their occurences.

A lot of Christ's teaching contradicts God's commands in the Old Testament. Whether God and Christ are the same is irrelevant in that sense because whether it is Christ bringing a new message, or God-as-Christ bringing a new message, Christianity is in no way near as hard line as Old Testament Judaism.
 

Care4all

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chips, read the parable of the fig tree....gentiles were grafted in to the tree....

i think the 144,000 can also be symbolism.....

10,000 from the tribe of yahdeedah
10,000 from the tribe of yahdeedah2
10,000 from the tribe of yahdeedah3
....
10,000 from the tribe of yahdeedah12

hahaha, sorry i don't know my Bible better :(...but anyway, the 12 tribes of israel were the names of the yahdeedah's, where 10,000 from each tribe were mentioned.... numerology and sybolism reeks with this passage about the 144k...

which means there is more to it and the meaning of this is not as simple as it seems.... :)

care
 

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I see your at it again. I suggest you actually read ALL the relevant portions. While only 144k may go to celestial heaven the earth will become a paradise and the rest will live here under the rule of Jesus. But do misquote all you want.

And provide some passage that supports your claim that only Jews will be in the 144 thousand.
Okay. So you won’t democratically accept the Catholelicks as Stricture referees. Well, what about A.A? :eusa_think:

I’ll back A.A. against your incestuous Rumba’s with Rattlers cult up in the piney woods to correctly interpret Guard’s pesher prose any day!

There IS no better illustration of “God” intervening and saving sinners from the depth of drunken debauchery and willful misdeeds than us once godless derelicts!

I mean, Higher Power Wept! The Twelve Steps are nothing BUT a primer for a salvation experience! And seeing I have scrupulously “done the Steps,” and remained completely sober for 21 years, I surely am far more saved than you. :eusa_snooty:

It is with these celestial credentials in mind, that I decree that everything you and your fundie friends have said in this thread is nothing but self-serving misinterpretations, sanctimony, and sacrilege.

Your holier-than-thou hogwash is in complete conflict with A.A’s 12 Steps and 12 Traditions and therefore must be satanic, and most probably, anti-Semitic too! :wtf: :wtf:

Unlike you ogre God, God as I understand Him (see attachment) is a genial, good-natured, and humanity loving entity, who has more principles in his little toe claw than all you hokey Christians have put together.

So stop your sinful dissembling, repent, confess your sins, and accept Sam (PBUH!!) as your Higher Power this very instant!

There, that is just as valid and nonsensical as you and your imbecilic mates saying that only the "saved" can understand Holey Stricture, isn't it! :rofl: :rofl:

(Diuretic, you don't think all this is going straight through to the keeper, do you? :eusa_wall:
 

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Chips Rafferty

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You're mixing Old Testament with New Testament. You can call it "cafeteria Christianity all you want, but the fact is, MAN wrote the Bible. Very little of it is verbatim "the word of God." Most is prefaced by "God said to me ..."

It isn't a matter of picking of choosing; rather, a matter of keeping events in context of their occurences.

A lot of Christ's teaching contradicts God's commands in the Old Testament. Whether God and Christ are the same is irrelevant in that sense because whether it is Christ bringing a new message, or God-as-Christ bringing a new message, Christianity is in no way near as hard line as Old Testament Judaism.
I’ll concede the point of your last para, while at the same time pointing out that Jesus, if he existed, was most probably merely a reforming Rabbi who fell foul of the same sort of Pharisee fundies that I am sending up here. :badgrin:
 

RetiredGySgt

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That is rich. Every time some person on the internet claims I am a fundimentalist I laugh. Your a bigot, plain and simple, your bigotry is directed at religious people, but it still is bigotry.

If I showed up at a fundi meeting they would likely fight over who got to tar and feather me LOL.

Your ignorance is astounding.
 

Chips Rafferty

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That is rich. Every time some person on the internet claims I am a fundimentalist I laugh. Your a bigot, plain and simple, your bigotry is directed at religious people, but it still is bigotry.

If I showed up at a fundi meeting they would likely fight over who got to tar and feather me LOL.

Your ignorance is astounding.
your bigotry is directed at religious people
Oh we belong to a
mutual condemnation society,

The Gunny and me!
 

RetiredGySgt

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The word of God and the message of Jesus are important and are most important to be delivered to unbelievers and those that have never heard the word. Anyone that tells you that THEIR interpretation of the Bible or the message is the only correct one is incapable of a basic understanding of the very words they seek to "interpret".

No mortal can know the mind of God. The words in the Bible are "inspired" from God but delivered by man. Translation from original language to modern language can be problematic to say the least. EACH person must use their own faith to decide what they believe. Prayer is a good way to aid one in determining what to accept or believe. No one should put blind obediance to any mortal person, religion or church.
 

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