Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[hadit]

Probably to counter the argument that she was always sinless. That "all have sinned..." certainly includes Mary.

And there is a big problem. If she could remain sinless on her own, that means that it is possible to never sin and Jesus would not have had to die for all mankind. Remember that Jesus BEGGED the Father for ANY other way so He would not have to go through the cross. If God could simply have removed original sin for mankind like they claim He did for Mary and it was possible to remain sinless, Jesus would not have had to die.

 

[Meriweather]

Adam and Eve were perfectly sinless and walked with God, yet they sinned. Christians filled with the Holy Spirit still are tempted and fall into sin. Why do you hold Mary as being so far above and beyond mere mortals when we see this?

Already answered

 

[Meriweather]

We all have choice. Sin does not overpower anything. You choose to believe Mary simply chose not to sin. That means Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary for her and she would have stood before God, pure and holy on her own efforts.

No

 

[Meriweather]

According to your belief, He did not have to save her. Literally, if she was sinless, she could have stood before God, holy and righteous in her own efforts. Jesus did not have to die for her sin. The ONLY reason she would need a savior at all is if she was a sinful creature like all of us.

In scripture, Mary proclaimed God saved her. Your belief is that she was lying?

 

[Meriweather]

It is because to label her as sinless is to fly in the face of Scripture that says we are all in need of a savior. To say Mary was sinless is to deny her proclamation that God was her savior because a sinless being needs no savior. How can you maintain that contradiction?

Re-read my post. Asked and answered.

 

[Care4all]

Adam and Eve were perfectly sinless and walked with God, yet they sinned. Christians filled with the Holy Spirit still are tempted and fall into sin. Why do you hold Mary as being so far above and beyond mere mortals when we see this?

We all have choice. Sin does not overpower anything. You choose to believe Mary simply chose not to sin. That means Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary for her and she would have stood before God, pure and holy on her own efforts.

It is not Biblically sustained that Mary chose complete and total obedience her entire life. That is your belief, and I know you will not deviate from it. That is your prerogative, but I am urging you to avoid placing more emphasis on church tradition than on Scripture itself.

According to your belief, He did not have to save her. Literally, if she was sinless, she could have stood before God, holy and righteous in her own efforts. Jesus did not have to die for her sin. The ONLY reason she would need a savior at all is if she was a sinful creature like all of us.

It is because to label her as sinless is to fly in the face of Scripture that says we are all in need of a savior. To say Mary was sinless is to deny her proclamation that God was her savior because a sinless being needs no savior. How can you maintain that contradiction?

Do you think God didn't know that Jesus, His Son was going to be given birth on Earth, by Mary and didn't prepare her from birth, to be His mother?

 

[hadit]

In scripture, Mary proclaimed God saved her. Your belief is that she was lying?

My belief is that she cannot simultaneously need a savior AND be completely sinless. And from what would she need saving?

 

[hadit]

No

She was like Adam and Eve, who walked with God in sinless perfection. If she committed no sin, why would she need Jesus' sacrifice, which was for the sin of the world?

 

[hadit]

Do you think God didn't know that Jesus, His Son was going to be given birth on Earth, by Mary and didn't prepare her from birth, to be His mother?

He allowed that "perfect" woman to be born to sinful parents.

 

[Zebra]

I am not just a Catholic, I am an informed one. I have read the Bible and I have studied Church history and history in general. I know WHY Catholics believe in or practice [whatever].

There is nothing that Catholics do that seriously contradicts Scripture. It just is not true.

If it APPEARS that they do, it is often because Catholics go by Church/synagogue TRADITIONS that have been handed down for centuries. You'd have to be a priest or bishop to fully understand it all. And face it, most anti-Catholics wouldn't even consider doing that. But they often pass themselves off as Catholic experts just the same.

there is the widespread idea that we Catholics are not Christians. I made a poll for that today.

 

[hadit]

Re-read my post. Asked and answered.

Which one? There are a lot of pages in this thread.

 

[Care4all]

He allowed that "perfect" woman to be born to sinful parents.

Actually that is not what they believe.... I just looked it up....

Story of St. Anne

St. Anne Catholic Community in Houston, TX | Features include parish news, Mass and Confessions schedule, bulletins, parish calendar, podcasts, descriptions of all parish programs and much more!

www.saintanne.org

 

[Meriweather]

My belief is that she cannot simultaneously need a savior AND be completely sinless. And from what would she need saving?

I understand your belief. I was explaining Catholic belief.

Luke's Gospel says the angel described Mary as filled with grace. Then it goes on in verses 46-47 to Mary calling God her savior. In John's Gospel, Mary is called/addressed as 'woman' which Eve was also called. Jesus, the second (obedient Adam); Mary the second (obedient) Eve.

As you are not Catholic, it is no surprise that you hold another belief. I simply noted why Catholics believe as they do--and how that belief is based on scripture and apostolic tradition.

 

[hadit]

Actually that is not what they believe.... I just looked it up....

Story of St. Anne

St. Anne Catholic Community in Houston, TX | Features include parish news, Mass and Confessions schedule, bulletins, parish calendar, podcasts, descriptions of all parish programs and much more!

www.saintanne.org

I did not see in that link where Mary's parents were declared sinless. Are you saying Catholics believe Mary's parents to also have been sinless?

This is the point. If Mary is required to be sinless because Jesus was perfect and sinless, then her parents should have been as well, and their parents, and so on, as far back as you can go. Otherwise, you're stuck with the problem of sinless perfection coming from sinful, imperfect beings.

 

[Meriweather]

She was like Adam and Eve, who walked with God in sinless perfection. If she committed no sin, why would she need Jesus' sacrifice, which was for the sin of the world?

I don't understand how that question is phrased. It was already established God was her savior and that Mary proclaimed that very fact when she was pregnant with Jesus. How many times do you believe God must save Mary? Did he fail the first time?

 

[hadit]

I understand your belief. I was explaining Catholic belief.

Luke's Gospel says the angel described Mary as filled with grace. Then it goes on in verses 46-47 to Mary calling God her savior. In John's Gospel, Mary is called/addressed as 'woman' which Eve was also called. Jesus, the second (obedient Adam); Mary the second (obedient) Eve.

There's a little problem there. Adam and Eve were a sexual couple. Mary and Jesus were mother and son.

As you are not Catholic, it is no surprise that you hold another belief. I simply noted why Catholics believe as they do--and how that belief is based on scripture and apostolic tradition.

I understand that. I'm simply stating why I believe as I do.

Jesus also called the Canaanite woman, "woman". And He called "woman" a woman He healed on the Sabbath, so I'm not sure why Mary being called "woman" is significant.

 

[hadit]

I don't understand how that question is phrased. It was already established God was her savior and that Mary proclaimed that very fact when she was pregnant with Jesus. How many times do you believe God must save Mary? Did he fail the first time?

And I keep asking, from what did she need to be saved if she was sinless?

 

[Care4all]

I did not see in that link where Mary's parents were declared sinless. Are you saying Catholics believe Mary's parents to also have been sinless?

This is the point. If Mary is required to be sinless because Jesus was perfect and sinless, then her parents should have been as well, and their parents, and so on, as far back as you can go. Otherwise, you're stuck with the problem of sinless perfection coming from sinful, imperfect beings.

Mary was conceived without original sin....wasn't that your original complaint and denial???

Anne and hubby, much like Sarah and Abraham could not conceive a child. Hubby prayed, and Anne prayed for a child, and both were given a message from God, that a baby would be born to them, and all would know her as Blessed....or something like that.... I presume in the same manner as an angel came to Mary, and she bore Jesus...

In other words....it was not under any natural humanly measures or circumstance, it was done by God...it was not normal....like in today's world could be compared in earthly terms as an artificial insemination...sort of....

But honestly, I never knew your complaint was a real issue about St. Anne...my mother in law never brought that up with me...

And I could care less, and I Trust in God to make whomever pure and sinless for whomever He plans to come, according to His plans...

This is such a tiny tiny and petty thing that Satan likely planted... and made bigger to divide Christians...he is the Divider, in the Bible among other things.....and loves us arguing on off message tiny topics rather than spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Remember, division is Satan's tool, NOT God's.

 

[Care4all]

And I keep asking, from what did she need to be saved if she was sinless?

God saved her by making her sinless, by making her birth, without original sin....Jesus is God made man, why would she need Jesus (God) to save her again?

 

[hadit]

God saved her by making her sinless, by making her birth, without original sin....Jesus is God made man, why would she need Jesus (God) to save her again?

My whole thing is that she didn't need a savior if she was, as Adam and Eve were, pure and sinless. They did not need a savior when they were innocently walking with God in the Garden, and if she was like them, she would not either.