Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[buttercup]

God saved her by making her sinless, by making her birth, without original sin....Jesus is God made man, why would she need Jesus (God) to save her again?

She was not sinless. The bible is VERY clear that ALL have sinned, ALL fall short of God's perfection.

Respectfully, I am truly amazed that this particular issue is even being argued.

 

[rstrats]

And I could care less,

Any thoughts on how much less you could care?

 

[buttercup]

Off topic, but it's always funny to me when people say "I could care less."

Um, you're saying the exact opposite of what you're trying to say. "I could care less" means you care!

It's I couldn't care less.

But whatever.... back to the topic....

 

[Care4all]

She was not sinless. The bible is VERY clear that ALL have sinned, ALL fall short of God's perfection.

Respectfully, I am truly amazed that this particular issue is even being argued.

Yes, all of us are sinners because we were born with Original Sin, Adam and Eve's disobedience/sinful gene... so to say....a curse of sorts...

Did God know and prepare Mary, from before she was born, to be the human vessel that would bring Jesus to birth on Earth? I believe God did know and plan....He's the Alpha and the Omega! If He wanted Jesus's birthing vessel to be without original sin, without a sinful nature, then I'm fine with that...and if he chose the opposite, then I'm fine with that also.

In my tiny world, this small conflict is not a hill worth dying on.... Meaningless in the overall teachings and guidance in the Gospels of Christ's....to me...

No one is going to have that on their check list, before being able to pass thru the pearly gates...I don't think?

 

[Meriweather]

here's a little problem there. Adam and Eve were a sexual couple. Mary and Jesus were mother and son.

It's interesting they were both virgins, isn't it.

 

[Meriweather]

And I keep asking, from what did she need to be saved if she was sinless?

I'll speak slowly. Through his grace God saved her from sin, from committing sin. Do you believe God's grace lacks that much power?

 

[hadit]

It's interesting they were both virgins, isn't it.

Since you brought it up, neither stayed virginal either. I mean, if you want to carry this "Mary is the new Eve" thing out to its logical conclusion, there it is.

 

[Meriweather]

My whole thing is that she didn't need a savior if she was, as Adam and Eve were, pure and sinless.

Explain that to Mary. She proclaimed God as her savior--that she could not have accomplished her role of obedience without having been first saved to do this by God himself. It's like you believe Mary to be a liar.

 

[Meriweather]

Since you brought it up, neither stayed virginal either. I mean, if you want to carry this "Mary is the new Eve" thing out to its logical conclusion, there it is.

Eve has been called the mother of mankind. Mary is called the mother of the Church, the mother of the Body of Christ. Interesting that you believe both Mary and Jesus had sex.

 

[Hafar1014]

I am not just a Catholic, I am an informed one. I have read the Bible and I have studied Church history and history in general. I know WHY Catholics believe in or practice [whatever].

There is nothing that Catholics do that seriously contradicts Scripture. It just is not true.

If it APPEARS that they do, it is often because Catholics go by Church/synagogue TRADITIONS that have been handed down for centuries. You'd have to be a priest or bishop to fully understand it all. And face it, most anti-Catholics wouldn't even consider doing that. But they often pass themselves off as Catholic experts just the same.

Catholic dogma conflicts with Genesis. There is no devil original sin or fall of man. They worship Mary as a god.

 

[hadit]

I'll speak slowly. Through his grace God saved her from sin, from committing sin. Do you believe God's grace lacks that much power?

Of course not. You keep coming back to this trope where you question whether I believe God can do something or not and I keep telling you what I believe. I will say this only one time so you can stop doing that. I believe the only thing God cannot do is something He says He will not do.

And, of course, no one has satisfactorily addressed the reality that, if Mary was actually sinless, Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary because there WAS another way for man to be reunited with God. That means that Jesus' pleading in the garden just went unanswered, not because there was no other way, but because God had one but made Jesus go through with it anyway. I can't accept that.

 

[hadit]

Eve has been called the mother of mankind. Mary is called the mother of the Church, the mother of the Body of Christ. Interesting that you believe both Mary and Jesus had sex.

No, I believe Mary had sex because she had children. From where do you get the idea that I think Jesus had sex? I didn't say that.

 

[hadit]

Explain that to Mary. She proclaimed God as her savior--that she could not have accomplished her role of obedience without having been first saved to do this by God himself. It's like you believe Mary to be a liar.

I do not. I believe that Mary said she was saved from sin by God just as I am saved from sin by God. She was obedient to the call God placed on her life, which was to bear the Messiah and ultimately watch him be horrifically killed. That doesn't mean she was perfect in all her ways her entire life.

 

[Meriweather]

In my tiny world, this small conflict is not a hill worth dying on....

Exactly. Two different beliefs developed, one about fifteen hundred years after apostolic times when some Christians chose to move as far away from Catholic teaching as possible. Actually three different beliefs. It follows that those who don't believe Jesus existed, question Mary's existence as well. It's all human nature, that each one of us comes to form his/her opinion. I wonder if there has ever been any one thing about which all humans have been in total agreement.

 

[Meriweather]

I do not. I believe that Mary said she was saved from sin by God just as I am saved from sin by God. She was obedient to the call God placed on her life, which was to bear the Messiah and ultimately watch him be horrifically killed. That doesn't mean she was perfect in all her ways her entire life.

From what I have read, Mary lived a very sheltered life, becoming a temple virgin when she was three.

 

[Meriweather]

And, of course, no one has satisfactorily addressed the reality that, if Mary was actually sinless, Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary because there WAS another way for man to be reunited with God. That means that Jesus' pleading in the garden just went unanswered, not because there was no other way, but because God had one but made Jesus go through with it anyway. I can't accept that.

What other way are you imagining would bring all of mankind to be reunited with God?

When I was little, I had the thought that why couldn't God have also filled me with grace so I wouldn't/couldn't sin? As I grew older I saw that the answer was....there goes free choice; there goes being able to know both good and evil, right and wrong.

 

[hadit]

From what I have read, Mary lived a very sheltered life, becoming a temple virgin when she was three.

Several things I believe are amiss with that thought:

1. Was there really a special organization of Jewish temple virgins? Women were generally excluded from worship in the temple, and their monthly cycle would have rendered them unclean and unfit for temple duty. This guy has some things to say about it.

Ancient Temple Traditions | Ask the Rabbi - SHEILOT.COM

2. Also from that link, we are told that the Catholic nuns are based on the temple virgins (is that true?), but nuns are expected to not marry (in my understanding), and we see that Mary most explicitly WAS married. If she was truly a temple virgin, she would not have married, because along with marriage comes the assumption that she would not remain a virgin.

3. Also, we see her living in Nazareth, Bethlehem, then Egypt, all places removed from the temple, rendering her "temple service" impossible.

For those reasons, I have doubts about that.

 

[hadit]

What other way are you imagining would bring all of mankind to be reunited with God?

When I was little, I had the thought that why couldn't God have also filled me with grace so I wouldn't/couldn't sin? As I grew older I saw that the answer was....there goes free choice; there goes being able to know both good and evil, right and wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you contradicted yourself. In a previous post, you said that Mary, unlike Eve, chose not to sin. Here you are apparently saying that being filled with grace means you would not/could not sin, that it would remove free choice.

To me that is contradictory, because on the one hand you laud Mary for choosing to not sin, but OTOH, it looks like you're saying that being filled with grace removes your (and her) ability to choose.

 

[Meriweather]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you contradicted yourself. In a previous post, you said that Mary, unlike Eve, chose not to sin. Here you are apparently saying that being filled with grace means you would not/could not sin, that it would remove free choice.

To me that is contradictory, because on the one hand you laud Mary for choosing to not sin, but OTOH, it looks like you're saying that being filled with grace removes your (and her) ability to choose.

Mary was faced with a choice: She was asked to become the mother of Jesus. Had she said, No, that would not have been a sin. There are many decisions in life that do not involve sin. With the angel's visit, she was put into a position that here entire community would believe she had sinned. You believe she sinned based on a broadly written passage (having nothing to do with Mary) that Paul wrote.

hadit, believe what you would like. I do not enjoy arguing. I merely presented information on what Catholics believe and why we believe Mary was without sin. What you don't understand is that I haven't the least interest in changing your own personal belief. Truly, I could not care less about what you choose to believe, as you--and everyone else--have reasons for what they do--or do not--believe.

 

[rstrats]

Mary was faced with a choice: She was asked to become the mother of Jesus.

I don't see where she was asked. What do you have in mind?