Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[surada]

The rapture is biblical, BUT I don't agree with the popular view (the pre-tribulation rapture.)

If you set aside all the conditioning and read the bible letting it speak for itself, it becomes very clear that the rapture happens on the last day... so that would be called post-trib, pre-wrath.

Actually, maybe I shouldn't have said 'the popular view' because that has been changing. Many Christians who once believed the pre-trib rapture now believe it is post-tribulation, including some well-known former proponents of pre-trib.

The tribulation was over in 70 AD or with the fall of Masada. That's why the Christians had left for Pella.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I am not just a Catholic, I am an informed one. I have read the Bible and I have studied Church history and history in general. I know WHY Catholics believe in or practice [whatever].

There is nothing that Catholics do that seriously contradicts Scripture. It just is not true.

If it APPEARS that they do, it is often because Catholics go by Church/synagogue TRADITIONS that have been handed down for centuries. You'd have to be a priest or bishop to fully understand it all. And face it, most anti-Catholics wouldn't even consider doing that. But they often pass themselves off as Catholic experts just the same.

It's impossible to not go against the scripture, because the scripture in itself is contradictory.

God is loving, and yet a genocidal maniac at the same time... er...

 

[hadit]

Then you must believe that God has effectively overlooked everyone's sins.

No, I believe God will judge all sin. Those that have accepted the blood of Christ will have their sin forgiven and paid for while those who reject it will not. God will not force those who do not want to be with Him for eternity to do so.

 

[rstrats]

God will not force those who do not want to be with Him for eternity to do so.

I say, force away. That's got to be preferable to being tortured 24/7 for eternity.

 

[hadit]

I say, force away. That's got to be preferable to being tortured 24/7 for eternity.

IOW, remove from us our free choice? Might as well make us robots and eliminate all the consequences of sin or make us unable to sin at all in the first place.

 

[rstrats]

IOW, remove from us our free choice?

Who would choose to be tortured day and night for eternity?

 

[hadit]

Who would choose to be tortured day and night for eternity?

Anyone who refuses to accept the gift of God's forgiveness. Have you never seen the TV show, "Hoarders"? The hoarders are warned over and over again that if they don't clean up the house, they will be evicted. We look at them and shake our heads, wondering how they can be in such denial right up until the moment they get kicked out of their house and the door locked on them. That's the way many people are with their sin. They know what they are doing is wrong, they are warned about the consequences, they can see that it's not making them happy, but they deny the consequences until it's too late because they don't want to give up their sin.

 

[surada]

Anyone who refuses to accept the gift of God's forgiveness. Have you never seen the TV show, "Hoarders"? The hoarders are warned over and over again that if they don't clean up the house, they will be evicted. We look at them and shake our heads, wondering how they can be in such denial right up until the moment they get kicked out of their house and the door locked on them. That's the way many people are with their sin. They know what they are doing is wrong, they are warned about the consequences, they can see that it's not making them happy, but they deny the consequences until it's too late because they don't want to give up their sin.

Some people are like that.. they'll take it to the limit one more time.

 

[rstrats]

Anyone who refuses to accept the gift of God's forgiveness.

So you're saying that they would rather be tortured eternally than to accept the gift of forgiveness. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that anyone would choose that.

 

[hadit]

So you're saying that they would rather be tortured eternally than to accept the gift of forgiveness. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that anyone would choose that.

No, they choose to reject God's gift of forgiveness and salvation because that would mean they have to give up lordship over their lives. They do not want to stop living selfishly and accept His authority, so He's simply allowing them to have exactly what they want, eternity without it. IOW, just like a hoarder, they're given numerous warnings, they know what's going to happen if they don't get rid of the junk, but they don't grab some trash bags and start throwing things away. Using your standard, they are deliberately choosing to be homeless and have their stuff taken away by force.

A person who jumps into the Niagara River 100 feet from the falls should not be mad at the water that smashes them on the rocks below.
A person who carries a piece of meat uninvited into a neighbor's yard where there is a large hungry guard dog should not be angry at the dog who tears them to pieces.
A person who robs a jewelry store of thousands of dollars in jewelry should not be angry at the judge who sentences him to years in prison, or at the cop who marches him there in shackles.

And so on. There are consequences to choices. No one who makes those choices wants those consequences, but they have to accept them anyway. So it is with sin, either repent of it, accept God's forgiveness and lordship over your life or deal with the consequences. We all have that choice.

Tell us this since you obviously don't think people will choose hell over God, which have you chosen, knowing the consequences?

 

[ding]

No, I believe God will judge all sin. Those that have accepted the blood of Christ will have their sin forgiven and paid for while those who reject it will not. God will not force those who do not want to be with Him for eternity to do so.

Thus effectively overlooking their sins. Could God not forgive everyone's sins? Didn't God forgive everyone's sins?

 

[hadit]

Thus effectively overlooking their sins.

To forgive is not to overlook. To overlook a debt is to just wipe it out unpaid, which is not just. To forgive a debt is for it to be paid in full. IOW, someone has to bear the cost of the infraction. That's why Christ's sacrifice was enough for God to forgive, because He paid the penalty for sin. All we have to do is accept it and His lordship over our lives, but so many just don't want to.

Could God not forgive everyone's sins? Didn't God forgive everyone's sins?

Ah, therein lies the rub. There is a big difference between COULD and DID, yes? IOW, do you believe God forgives sin for which there is no repentance, despite all the Biblical passages commanding repentance? If He just forgives everything, there would be no need for us to even repent and no need for all the commands to do so. There would be no need for the Church to even spread the Gospel, no need for Christians to put their very lives in danger for the sake of the Gospel. Do you realize how absurd that is?

Question, do you think that all of humanity will be forced to live with God for eternity, when so many so clearly reject Him now?

And, to repeat a question, since you obviously don't think people will choose hell over God, which have you chosen, knowing the consequences?

 

[ding]

To forgive is not to overlook.

Exact same result especially since everyone's debt was paid. There's no difference.

 

[hadit]

Exact same result especially since everyone's debt was paid. There's no difference.

Of course there is a difference. If God simply overlooked sin, there would be no need for Christ to become man, die and rise from the dead again. There would be no need for repentance. Surely you are not trying to argue that Scripture is saying there is no need for repentance?

And you never answered the question. Knowing the consequences of the choice, which have you chosen?

 

[buttercup]

Thus effectively overlooking their sins.

How on earth did you get that out of what he said? That was the exact opposite of what he said.

Could God not forgive everyone's sins? Didn't God forgive everyone's sins?

People have to RECEIVE the gift of salvation. Did you actually think it was automatic, and everyone in the world regardless of if they believe or if they follow Jesus is automatically forgiven? Not only does that go against Christianity, it doesn't even make sense from a common sense standpoint.

 

[ding]

Of course there is a difference. If God simply overlooked sin, there would be no need for Christ to become man, die and rise from the dead again. There would be no need for repentance. Surely you are not trying to argue that Scripture is saying there is no need for repentance?

And you never answered the question. Knowing the consequences of the choice, which have you chosen?

Christ became man so all sin could be forgiven, wiped out, overlooked. So no. No difference at all.

 

[ding]

How on earth did you get that out of what he said? That was the exact opposite of what he said.



People have to RECEIVE the gift of salvation. Did you actually think it was automatic, and everyone in the world regardless of if they believe or if they follow Jesus is automatically forgiven? Not only does that go against Christianity, it doesn't even make sense from a common sense standpoint.

I'm pointing out the idiocy of his wording God hasn't overlooked sin. He most certainly has since he has forgiven it. So arguing God can't allow sinners to enter heaven is mistaken. Heaven is full of sinners.

 

[hadit]

Christ became man so all sin could be forgiven, wiped out, overlooked. So no. No difference at all.

Significant term, COULD BE. Why do you persist in this line when I've made it clear that, if all sin is simply overlooked, there is no need for Christ to die and rise from the dead and no need for us to repent and no need for the Church to spread the Gospel. Why bother when God is just going to ignore everything you've ever done and force you to live with Him for eternity?

 

[hadit]

I'm pointing out the idiocy of his wording God hasn't overlooked sin. He most certainly has since he has forgiven it. So arguing God can't allow sinners to enter heaven is mistaken. Heaven is full of sinners.

It is full of FORGIVEN sinners. God did NOT ignore the sin, He PAID the penalty for it. That is the key.

 

[buttercup]

I'm pointing out the idiocy of his wording God hasn't overlooked sin. He most certainly has since he has forgiven it. So arguing God can't allow sinners to enter heaven is mistaken. Heaven is full of sinners.

^ This is so wrong, on every level. Forgiving sin doesn't mean overlooking it! JESUS paid the price for us. The bible is clear (even in the Old Testament, read Genesis 15:6) that we are justified by faith. When we become a new creation, we have a new nature, a new heart, we are no longer the same sinner that we were in the past!

The cross was where God's mercy AND justice met.

It is full of FORGIVEN sinners. God did NOT ignore the sin, He PAID the penalty for it. That is the key.

Heaven is not full of sinners. When we come to Christ and are born again, God no longer sees us as "sinners."

Here you go ding, read about imputed righteousness:

Why does Christ’s righteousness need to be imputed to us? | GotQuestions.org

Why does Christ’s righteousness need to be imputed to us? What is imputation? Why, on the basis of Christ’s death, can God declare us to be righteous?

www.gotquestions.org

And here's something else for you. Here's a snippet:

Because we are in Christ, God sees Christ’s righteousness covering us. Only “in Christ” is our sin debt cancelled, our relationship with God restored, and our eternity secured (John 3:16–18; 20:31). In Christ, God sees me as a new creation: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have peace with God and are counted as righteous before Him (verses 17–21). Rather than seeing my sin, God sees the righteousness of His Son. He sees me as justified, redeemed, sanctified, even glorified (see Romans 8:30).​

How does God see me in Christ? | GotQuestions.org

How does God see me in Christ? How does God see me as a result of having received Jesus Christ as my Savior?

www.gotquestions.org